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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Brent Hill on July 14, 2008, 02:55:00 PM

Title: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Brent Hill on July 14, 2008, 02:55:00 PM
I just got back from South Africa today and outside of the current topic, had an amazing trip   To the point, I shot a huge warthog with my BW and 35/55 Gold tip arrows ( 29 inches with standard gt tip insert glued in with power bond and 1964 bear razor head glued with power bond onto a 125 grain steel broadhead insert) Despite somewhat decent arrow placement, I did not recover the animal.  The arrow was recovered within 10 feet of where the animal was hit and the first 10 inches of the arrow was covered in good red blood.  However, the insert / broadhead was not in the shaft and presumably remained in the animal. We tracked the hog over 1500 feet with periodic blood and tracks found and I have no question as to the trackers's abilities ( we found the rest of my animals).  My question is whether anyone else has had this problem with powerbond in cold weather (We were hunting in 30 decree weather last week) or in any weather for that matter.  I have used Gold tips and the standard GT inserts with goat tuff glue for years with no problems and only changed glues to get more time to set up the old razorheads on the bh inserts.  I am now considering using the one piece brass bh inserts that glue into the shafts to eliminate extra possible weak points in my arrow set up but I'm still concerned about my glue choice.  Thanks
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: BobW on July 14, 2008, 03:09:00 PM
Brent:

I've had problems with PowerBond on steel and aluminum adapters into BHs, as well as aluminum shafting bonding to carbon on a "radical" method of footing where I use the footing to actually lengthen my arrow.  Have had better results with GoatTuff.  These were not cold conditions either (low to mid 80's).
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Bowspirit on July 14, 2008, 03:29:00 PM
I've had problems with the inserts in certain carbon shafts popping out with powerbond.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: fyrfyter43 on July 14, 2008, 04:19:00 PM
Yep, I've had problems with inserts coming out with Powerbond. I used itto glue brass inserts into GT shafts. The inserts were roughed up with sandpaper and cleaned with acetone. The inside of the shafts were roughed up with a .270 rifle cleaning brush and cleaned with acetone.

I also had failures with hex heads that I had glued onto steel adapters using Powerbond. It turns out that the Powerbond never fully cured. It was still tacky several weeks after gluing the hex heads on the inserts.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: bm22 on July 14, 2008, 04:37:00 PM
i had problems when i first started using goldtips with power bond, number 1 thing to remember is you have to clean you arrow. i took fine steel wool and rubbed the arrow and insert and used two part 5 min. epoxy and have never had a problem.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Charlie Cole on July 14, 2008, 04:46:00 PM
Never used powerbond myself, but I've heard that cleaning the inserts or shafts with alcohol can leave behind a residue that some glues don't like.

just another variable to toss in the pot.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: JRY309 on July 14, 2008, 05:04:00 PM
I have used Powerbond on my carbons except for the HIT epoxy for my Axis and Beman MFX.I clean and etch before using Powerbond and have never had on pull out yet.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: joe skipp on July 14, 2008, 05:05:00 PM
I stopped using PB entirely. I now use JB Weld 2 part expoxy for all my customer inserts for Carbon Arrows and have never had a failure yet. Its a 4 hr cure....but its good.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: DesertDude on July 14, 2008, 05:07:00 PM
Another little trick....take out the nock so air can reach the glue to help set......
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: TomK on July 14, 2008, 05:13:00 PM
Like Joe Skipp, I've never had a problem with JB Weld.  Sorry you didn't recover your hog.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Kevin L. on July 14, 2008, 07:15:00 PM
I've heard of similar problems with PB. I mostly shoot wooden arrows, but I recently got some carbons as a gift and I glued the inserts with Clubmaster golf shafting epoxy. I've been using for several years to attach nickel-silver ferrules onto bamboo rod blanks with great results.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: beachbowhunter on July 14, 2008, 07:25:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowspirit:
I've had problems with the inserts in certain carbon shafts popping out with powerbond.
Same here. I use Goat Tuff.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: zilla on July 14, 2008, 08:03:00 PM
I only use power bond to lock serving and tied nock point in.  For carbon inserts and broadhead adapters I have found that Arizona Archery Epoxy works better than anything else I have tried.  I always abraid my carbons with a very small rat tail file, and clean all parts with denatured alcohol..
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: B M A on July 15, 2008, 01:47:00 AM
I use the GoldTip arrow adhesive on the Goldtips. Works great.  
First I clean the shaft with alcohol then run a wire brush that comes in a gun cleaning kit in the shaft.  Then again clean with alcohol & at the same time clean the inserts.  No problems.  Glues dries quick and strong.....
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: L. E. Carroll on July 15, 2008, 02:59:00 AM
I'm new to GT's and have had several inserts pull out in my target when removing arrows.  Being from the wayyyy old school I pulled several that I could rotate after they had been glued in when cut at a shop [don't know what glue was used] I then glued them all with hot melt. They seem to be working but after reading this and seeing no mention of hot melt I'm wondering if I screwwd up??? Please advise.... Thanks,
Gene
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: JC on July 15, 2008, 08:18:00 AM
Another vote here for good prepping and JB weld. Failures with everything else I've tried, but not JB.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Smallwood on July 15, 2008, 11:08:00 AM
i too, have not had good results with powerbond, i either use hot melt glue, or jb weld after i etch and clean the inside of the shaft. I haven't had any problems since.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: dino on July 15, 2008, 12:54:00 PM
I've never used JB weld, but I've have to remove some inserts that were installed with that stuff and it is the toughest there is to get out wether it be broadhead adapters in points or inserts in shafts.  I dread every time I get something glued in with it. dino
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Brent Hill on July 15, 2008, 01:30:00 PM
Thank you for your responses.  I never thought of jb weld but i believe that it takes a while to set up and will hopefully work well for installing broadheads to steel inserts.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: M60gunner on July 15, 2008, 02:19:00 PM
I also use the Clubmaster expoy that Kevin Little uses. My thinking was if will hold golf clubs together it should work on arrows. IMO it is the shock of the hit and brittle glue that causes the problem. If the glue has not set up after a long period of time it could be not mixed correctly. Been there and done that. I found that most of the fast set glues that I can get at the home store become brittle after awhile. Not sure if it is heat or cold or just age of the glue on the shelf at the store.
Thanks Mark for the tip,I learn something all the time from the folks on this site.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Irish on July 15, 2008, 03:12:00 PM
I have gone to JB weld also
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Doc Nock on July 15, 2008, 03:22:00 PM
L.E.
I can't testify it's foolproof, but I worked locally at Kinsey Outdoors (retail subsidiary of Kinsey Archery)and they use a brownish hot melt stick for all carbon inserts!

We had that mniserable backstop made of masonite..which hold to a shaft like cement...and none ever pulled out.

I think it might be Bohning hot melt, but they buy in bulk up at the Archery Distribution center and repackage in individual stick packs...so I don't know for sure

I've used it for 3 years personally and never had one pull out of a backstop. Before, I used any 5 min 2 part epoxy...and then tried some new stuff. It won't come out! I used to be able to heat the field tip, twist it and pull out the insert and dip the shaft in cool water...then rough up inside shaft and re-use cleaned up insert... but that stuff I got never would let go...so I now use hot melt exclusively for inserts. I've not tried it with the adapters for glue on BH's...but will soon!

Oh, btw, they NEVER clean the shaft after cutting...just tap and use the hot melt! Amazing!
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: L. E. Carroll on July 15, 2008, 05:50:00 PM
Thanks alot Dave you have put my mind at ease on using hot melt with GT's.
Gene
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Brent Hill on July 15, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
Now that I'm going to change glues, is their a good way to pull inserts out of arrows and broadheads off inserts when they are glued on with powerbond ?  I'm cheap and love my limited supply of razorheads.  Thanks bh
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Doc Nock on July 15, 2008, 07:25:00 PM
Final note, L.E.

It's a brownish color...not your clear or white stuff at the craft store they're using... I buy it off their rack when I get up there... seems a bit stronger than the clear stuff they use outa a gun...
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: fyrfyter43 on July 15, 2008, 07:58:00 PM
Dave, it's probably Ferr-L-Tite that you're talking about.

I was just out shooting on my improvised range (my Rinehart 18-1 set out on the railroad tracks behind my house), and I had 2 more inserts come out that were glued in with Powerbond. Yeah, I was having a pretty bad night! Of course that stone is pretty hard on anything that hits it, including my shafts. (This "range" is a great way to improve my shooting - or go broke with all the arrows I wreck.)

None of the inserts that I recently glued in with JB Weld have come out.
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: Doc Nock on July 15, 2008, 09:15:00 PM
Eric,

Someone else locally said that to me recently... and I don't "Think" so...

Let me ask you a question: isn't the Ferr-L=-Tite the hard, oval shaped stick?  I've used that for ferrules on fly rods since my grandaddy gave me a rod... If I'm thinking of the right product and name.

Whatever, let me add this... the sticks I'm talking asbout are rubbery, round and look exactly like the craft clear/white hot glue sticks that come with those "guns" you plug in... but it ain't so! They're the same dimension and soft like that... but they're brownish.

I "thought" Ferr-L-Tite was the hard stuff... but won't swear to it so posing as a question!  :)
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: L. E. Carroll on July 16, 2008, 03:45:00 AM
Thanks Dave the Hot Melt I have and am using is the brownish one so think they will be fine. [ not they type crafters use in the hot glue guns]
Gene
Title: Re: power bond / insert failure with gold tips
Post by: fyrfyter43 on July 16, 2008, 05:04:00 AM
Yes, Ferr-L-Tite is just like you described it...a hard, oval-shaped stick. Amber in color. Definitely not what you're using.