......how much did it help your accuracy? Thanks, Skychief.
a TON! I can hold at full draw longer which gives me the ability to get a better sighe picture
It did not really improve accuracy, and that was not my motivation anyway.
Not sure about increasing my accuracy but it sure increased my enjoyment.
I shoot better now than I ever have. I shoot a 58 inch 42 lbs@28 inch BlackCreek Banshee. It is quick little bow.
In that pinch moment it can decide if you're accurate or not.
You never know when a deer may slow his gait, making how hold draw for a few seconds longer than you thought.
I have more "flyers" now cause the string doesn't RIP from my fingers anymore. I have to retrain myself to release smoothly. Hopefully, it's just temporary.
Biggie, I had the same problem when I picked up my 50# bow but I was only shooting (trying)it for fun. I don't see any reason for me to shoot a lighter bow.
If you drop too much you do have to work on your release more.A light weight bow is harder to get back tension on for good shooting if you are used to a heavy bow.I do think however once you work at it and get better with the light bow you will shoot all bow weights better.jmo
It takes a little while.I think everyone has a certain weight range they shoot better than others.
I agree James. My accuracy is best with a bow in the mid to upper 50#'s at my draw length. Anything lower and my release isn't as crisp. Higher and I short draw alot...Mike
Yeah I have been up and down the weight scale myself.Give me a bow around the upper 40s range and I will shoot my best day in and day out.Because of a shoulder injury last year I had to shoot a 40lb bow a lot.I had to work hard to get where I could shoot it and never got to where I could shoot it as well on a regular basis as my normal weight bows.We are all different and for someone else it might be a 40lb bow is just right or for another it might be 70lbs.I think finding that perfect weight range is a very important step to good shooting.jmo
It sounds to me like alot of you guys are just substituting high weights for a proper release.
thats kinda like getting a faster bow because you can't judge distance well. treating the symptom not the problem.
Pygmy, I didn't keep going up in weight till I found a bow that gave me a clean release so your theory of treating symptoms goes out the window. I've been shooting bows in the mid to upper 50's for a long time now. When I try to shoot a bow that is much lighter in draw weight I don't get a clean release. I could spend time with it and work on my release with a lighter poundage, but I don't intend on dropping my weight till my body makes me. I may also be treating the "symptom" by not shooting heavier weights. I could always attack the "problem" and stretch and strengthen my rotator cuffs, upper back muscles, etc... to shoot the heavier weights, but I'm comfortable where I'm at...Mike
Maybe not you moose but I do think pygmy is on to something. I have been tempted to shoot heavier bows because I shoot them better. I have long speculated that it was due to a better release. The problem is that I can't shoot the heavy ones for very long and my shoulders complain later. I have to work at it a bit more at the lower weight but as James said, I see an overall increase in accuracy with any weight. I'm sure there are some among us that are doing the same.
Skychief, I dropped about 10 pounds and it takes some getting used to for the reasons mentioned. I feel that I am becoming a better archer. Mainly I'm able to shoot more and concentrate on the target better. My form is improving and when I do pick up the heavier bow it shows.
Target-practicing at 10 F above puts a very different light on how accurate I am with my "heavy" bow. Especially that first shot.
I have found that its hard to pull a heavy bow wrong.I tend to aggravate my shoulder with the lighter weight bows(50lb)because I get sloppy and try to muscle the bows too much.I went back to the 59 to 64 lb which are heavey for me and shoot much better because my form has to be right and back tension is easier to achieve. I realize form should be consistent regardless...but...I guess I'm lazy.
SL
I'm going to a lighter weight. In the state of Texas where I live, there is a move to drop the minimum of 40 lbs to no minimum weight come this September. I shot target archery when I was a teenager so my release is still good since I use a tab for bow hunting. I don't snap shoot. I hold at full until something in my mind says, release. I'm looking at getting a 68" long, 35# @ 30" Brackenbury Legend recurve bow. I plan on using this bow for target archery, bowhunting frogs, rabbits and javelina. Besides, it's a good excuse to get another bow.
I had jsut sent this off on another thread (fastest bow at 40#), but it seems even more apropo here:
When I had to drop weight substantially this past winter I looked into the ILF bows. I tried all of the ILF trad risers and found all of them to be good but ended up keeping a Trad Tech Titan because it seemed to fit me bet (I have a very small hand). Anyway, I tried a bunch of different limbs and ended up with short Flute foam core recurves that pull 36# at my 25" draw. I use 1616 arrows that weigh in at the same 9 gr. per lb. I had been shootng on heavier bows and actually found this setup shot faster and flatter than I had before. I actually stretched my effective range out.
I made the change due to arthritis pain, and I also found the thin flat recurve limbs to be smoother drawing than the same weight longbows, which I love and still shoot, but I'm just reporting what I experienced here. Right now, if I could go back to the heavier bows, I wouldn't... I'm enjoying shooting light ones and doing better than i ever did.
Don't feel that you're limited by low draw weight unless you want to hunt... then work at the lower limit for your state, but, as noted above, limit your shots to those you are confidant of making.
I've dropped 10 lbs in draw wt due to hand and shoulder surgerys and noticed an increase in scores. Plus shooting a field round or indoor tournamen, I'm not beat by the weight after shooting a lot.
Hey,
Shooting with lower poundage ( 48 lbs.), yes I shoot with more accuracy, but the biggest advantage of it is I don't have the shoulder and neck problems that I used to. And that makes a ton of difference.
This weight issue has been going on for dogs years. My main concern is that a lighter bow weight will not kill as well and leave a bunch of wounded critters for the anti's to find out about. We do not always get that perfect shot and critters can move just as we release.
Yes, I have seen the pictures of the kills with lighter weight bows (under 50lbs)and I know we have better materials but I also know "things happen" and at 10 degrees F one may not get full draw etc., etc.
Do not mean to stir the pot and cause trouble but this subject of bow weight for hunting is a "button" with me.
Tom
Well, I love flinging quills & I love bows. So I have lighter weight fun shooting type bows that I picked up mostly to re-hab myself, (back & shoulder injury).
I also have heavier weight bows mostly for hunting bigger game (like elk). I've also drawn & held on elk in freezing cold weather, I'm in B.C.!...LOL. I can tell you that when that big bull elk is 14 yards away & you can hear him beathing & see his breathe & your hearts pounding up in your throat it's no problem pulling back a heavy weight bow! I tend to over-draw slightly in these situations & a heavy bow helps prevent me from over-drawing too much.
At my age with past injuries & the love of flinging quills, I'm not always looking for a "workout" with my heavy bows. So I'll pick up the lighter ones & go have fun, or work on form etc. & I can shoot 'em all day long.
So go forth with a dandy excuse to have more bows!
a bad shot is a bad shot and ten more lbs isn't going to do anything. 70lb compounds leave arrows in spines and scapulas all the time
IMHO you're alot more likely to NEED that heavy weight if you should CHOOSE to go with it. If you know what I'm saying. I think alot of people miss and crack a spine and think "I'm glad I had this heavier bow." Rather than thinking "With I lighter bow I could've held for the perfect shot."
@moose. whether you chose that weight because of it or not it doesn't matter. You don't have a clean release and you use high weights to get over it. Yes you can work out more to shoot an even higher bow and treat the symptom and not the problem like that as well. But you'll still have a sloppy draw under all that weight. It doesn't change you're treating the symptom and not the problem.
If you don't want to go down in weight than you are right it doesn't matter. But don't go thinking you have a clean release.
Wow, amazes me that someone who has never seen me shoot can analyze me like that. Thank you Swamp Pygmy, I'll work on my release...Mike
To address the original question: Yes, dropping six pounds in weight made me shoot better...
Simply because now I can concentrate on doing the right things right order...before, if I did it right..it hurt! Now it doesn't hurt. Makes me shoot better.
BTW, Arty Ritis is my shooting partner! :)
moose you have some kinda attitude man. From your very fist post. Chill.
by your own admission you can shoot heavier bows with a clean release and lighter bows without one. This doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what your flaw might be.
Sorry I'm such an awful person for trying to help you shoot better. Never read my posts again and both our problems are solved.
just don't talk to me. how's that? BTW don't bother answering.
I'm just trying to help you diagnose form flaws addressed to dropping draw weight, as this thread implies. Sorry to offend you so much.
I dropped from a 60lb. BW to a 46lb.ACS CX, both shooting 9 gpp. I gained speed accuracy and my shoulder don't hurt as bad. I will say my shooting form is much more important at the lighter draw weight
It truly is RLA you're right. What I was surprised about is that there is practice advantages to going back up in draw weight too. Don't forget to do that.
It's odd but different shooting errors in form show themselves at different poundages.
I dropped 3 pounds and my accuracy greatly improved. Just made it easier to get to my anchor. Duane
advancing age has me ordering a set of 45# limbs for my Morrison Cheyenne.....kind of has me worried about arrow weight.....hoping that a 540 - 580 arrow will be heavy enough for whitetails at my draw length...27".....and which brodhead to use....leaning towards a 2 blade Magnus
Due to my stroke in january this year I am dropping from the mid 60's @28" to the low 50's @26". NOt sure why the draw length srortened but just not strong enough for the heavy poundage. Getting alot of bad habits trying to muscle myself back into my old bow. HAving the bow problem resolved by Wingnut who is fixiing me up with a new dryad bow in my poundage and draw length. can't wait for mOjam to pick it up. any tips orideas about the conversion to lighter and shorter would be greatly appreciated.
Well John, when it comes to lighter and shorter you have already made the best decision by dealing with Mike down at Dryad. He'll fix you up with a bow that will take away any fears you might have of going down in weight. Secondly just take your time and don't get frustrated. Shooting light bows isn't as easy as it sounds, give it some time and have fun with it.
Jedi, thank you for the encouragement and tips. I do feel fortunate to be able to shoot again. Will a tab help smooth my release better than the glove that I,ve been using? I am having fun. This will be my first ever custom built bow.GOT to shoot it at COmpton's, Cant wait to own it.
I think I shoot a little better with a tab than with a glove but that is just me. I have seen some phenomenal shooters that used a glove. As for lighter draw weights my current bow inventory goes from 43 to 56 lbs. I find myself shooting the 56lb. bow more than the others but I can't see any appreciable difference in accuracy. It just feels a little better to me.
kctreeman, Good luck with your rehab, I'm sure you will be back up to par in no time!
Bob
Well, m60gunner, what ticks me is people who think light bows wound more deer than heavy bows. Just ain't so. Bad shooting creates issues. I've been doing this for five decades and know from experience what makes a bad shot.
It's not the bow weight...it's the bow shooter.
And...I'll add this. I've watched guys shooting those 65 and 70 pounders, pulling to maybe 25 or 26 inches and killing any extra power they may have...as well as accuracy. A 45 pound bow drawn to 28 or 29 will equal or surpass a 60 pounder drawn to 25 or 26 in most cases. Power stroke comes from utilizing the full power of each bow by drawing it to your full draw. And....yes, good form will build good release on lighter bows...it's all about form.
Swamp pygmy. Maybe if didn't use such inflammatory language people would be more receptive to your advice. Something to consider.
I've dropped my bow wieght down from 60#s to 45#s due to a bad back.
I've taken several deer with 45#s and a 400-450grn arrow. I even killed a boar with a 400grn G/T tipped with a snuffer in March from 30yds or so.
I shoot just as good with 45# as i did with 60#s. I can even hold my bow a little longer if i have too.
George D...well said! ... shot placement is key...no matter how much draw weight! Its 20yds and in for me..i'd rather shoot a bow in the mid 40s that i know i can draw comfortably in the cold michigan winters...45#s and a sharp two blade in the vitals = dead deer.
C'mon Rocky, that's plenty of killin power for an ol bowhunter like you. I killed a bunch of deer with a 45# bow and 500 grain arrows. Stick with your 3 blades, you'll be fine!!
pdk I didn't think I did. If it came off like that I didn't meant it to. Well alright the second time I meant it to. But not the first. If you look at it he clearly told me "your idea is out the window" when I still feel it's correct. High sting tension pulls your fingers out of the way giving a clean release and low weights don't. It wasn't until that I got angry with him. Anyway... it was a misunderstanding and we talked it out. So it's all good.
kctree. one thing I would mention is it does seem easier to have a static release than a dynamic release. The tension from the string I think aids in it being pulled away so forcefully which kinda naturally pull your draw hand away. With lighter bows it seems to make it wanna pluck rather than slide back to touch your shoulder. I have better luck trying to hold my hand still. just my .02. Your miles may vary.
imo.... we should all strive for the weight that allows us to reach our maximum draw length comfortably... when we reach our maximum draw, we should be using more back tension and have better alignment and consistant anchor...if we shoot a bow that is too heavy for us to handle comfortably...we tend to short draw, lose anchor, and lose back tension and alignment... for me 45#s is comfortable and great, for some 55# and over may work... but a higher poundage bow doesnt mean squat if your not reaching max draw and anchoring consistantly... i like a bow that i can run thru the 3d course a couple times and not feel like im fighting to draw it back...so i guess i'd say grab a lighter bow and see how far you draw your arrow back...if your draw lengthens, then you may need to drop a few pounds...
Well Mr. Stout I see we have had different experiences over the years. We also do not agree on this matter but I do agree with you about the bad bow shooter. Nothing makes up for a bad shooter and no matter what weight bow they should not be hunting!!
I agree with you George,, a bad shot is still a bad shot whether it be from a 60-70 lb. bow or a 40-45 lb. bow. The bow doesn't take the shot the archer does. I shot 55-60 lbs bows well for years but I made the choice to shoot a 42 lb. bow because it is more comfortable(less painful)thus I now shoot better.
Biggie 3 blades at 45lbs? Not that I'd know better; I just always heard use 2 at that weight.
I think alot of the weight argument is left out is the distance you hunt. With the same bow a thirty yard shot is completely different than a twelve yard shot at the same game. And of course your draw length.
They have a ton of pigs where I hunt. I see 20+ a day. Have to throw rocks at them to get them off of the trail sometimes to pass them. During hunting season they are much more wary but anyway my point is I have a 44lb bow and I want to shoot a bunch of different weight pigs and see what different heads do at different distances. There are enough pigs of various weights that I think it's do-able.
Rocky was talkin bout deer huntin...he didn't say anything about pigs.
The almost 3-1 designa like the woodsman and something really sharp like the Razorcap are both good heads for his set-up for deer.
I also disagree that the distance of the shot is relevant. Ah arrow loses very little energy at 30 yards, the only reason it is falling is gravitational pull, not loss of energy.
I'll repeat this mantra as I have before. I didn't come up with it, but I wish I had - Dead is dead, you can't get "deader". There are reasonable limits to what is acceptable in EVERY situation. There is a minimum effective weight. There is a maximum effective yardage. My bow does it's part every time. When I hunt with someone new I judge their ability to take game by how accurate they shoot and how sharp their broadheads are, not by how many pounds they can pull. Again, shoot the weight you can and know your ability. "Dead is dead, you can't get deader".
QuoteAh arrow loses very little energy at 30 yards, the only reason it is falling is gravitational pull, not loss of energy.
Great point!!
Never thought of it, but it makes sense.
Steve
Well all I can say is there is a noticeable difference in penetration between 12yds and 30 yards in my targets. I was always lead to believe they lost alot of umph over every increasing yard. The decrease in speed if absolutely nothing else should play a decent role in how far something penetrates over distance though right?
Isn't one of the big deals with compounds that they store more energy out to longer distances?
compounds having more energy at longer distance is a falacy...down-range performance is as much a function of projectile weight as speed....
A lighter projectile tends to "shed" speed faster than a heavier mass...therefore, a lighter, faster projectile and a heavy, slower projectile may start out at the same Kinetic Engergy, but the heavier projectile will have more energy at longer ranges...
This is why Momentum is more meaningful (IMHO) than "Connecticut Energy" (apologies to Too Short)
:bigsmyl:
Slower bow w/ heavy arrow trumps fast bow w/ light arrow for penetration...
yes but at distance?
What I'm saying is do you think if you shoot your hunting arrow into a piece fence post at ten yards and then walk back forty yards and do it again it's going to have the same penetration?
I don't think it will personally. Eventually the force that propelled that arrow is going to decrease and its going to come down to earth.
Thats why a heavier bow will shoot a flatter arrow at a further rate. More momentum behind it but it does slowly decrease and gravity over comes the momentum of your draw stroke and it starts coming back down to earth.
I mean I think anyway. I'm not a scientist. But I can say when I shoot at ten yards my arrow goes half through my target and around thirty to forty it might go in six inches. Am I alone in this experience?
Biggie's original post related to RETAINED energy downrange; yes, the energy will be less at 40yds...but a heavier arrow, regardless of the beginning velocity, will retain a higher level of energy than a lighter arrow launched at the same velocity....
Trajectory is a function of speed and time...a 600gr arrow appears to "drop" faster than a 500gr arrow because it leaves the bow at a slower speed, therefore it is not as far downrange at a given time....
But doesn't that mean it has less penetration at 30 yds as 12 yds? thats all I'm talking about.
I know a heavier arrow retains its penetration better. I'm not saying use a light arrow. I'm not saying change your setup at all. I'm talking in a hunting scenario I do not think an arrow will penetrate the deer the same at 12 yards as thirty. Thats all I'm talking about.
My original post when I said a 45lb bow isn't the same at ten yards as it is as thirty I meant that even hunting the same species. Someone taking naturally longer shots at game in the flat country may have completely valid but opposing view points as someone who uses the same bow at ten yards in thickets. Thats all I meant.
It's easy to see that many of the people here are almost exclusively into archery, because the rifle nuts out there who are doing long distance shooting understand most of these concepts very well. As a certified gun nut, as well as an archery nut and pilot, I can tell you that the study of ballistics and aerodynamics has described most of these matters very well for many years. Because of archery's rather primitive heritage and low flight-performance characteristics, these matters have not been considered generally as important in archery until more recently. There are literally books written on these subjects, and I could go on and on for hours discussing them, but there are a few basic fundamentals.
First, a drawn bow stores potential energy which on release converts to kinetic energy. The energy stored in the bow at full draw depends on the design of the bow and the length of the pull. A more efficient bow design stores more energy, and a longer draw also stores more energy. It is not simply the peak draw weight of a bow that dictates the energy that is put into the bow or the energy that will be returned on release. That is why when looking at the draw length versus force curve on a bow that the area under the curve becomes so important. Of course, the bow must be efficient in returning that energy in order to propel an arrow faster. Compound bows generally store more energy for a given draw length and peak weight than stick bows and are more efficient at returning that energy to the arrow for a variety of reasons including higher initial pull weight, longer peak weight and more efficient acceleration of the arrow due to the lighter holding weight that increases quickly to the peak weight and maintains the higher weights over a longer period of time. Efficiency of a bow can be somewhat higher or lower depending on arrow weight, but generally speaking the kinetic energy of a lighter arrow will be about the same as that of a heavier arrow shot from the same bow by the same archer. Kinetic energy equals mass times velocity squared. That is different from momentum which is mass times velocity. Because velocity becomes much more important in the energy equation than mass, lighter arrows are much more dependent on velocity to "earn" their energy than are heavier arrows.
It is well known in aerodynamics and ballistics that drag increases logarithmically with speed. That is why some of our politicians are once again trying to lower the speed limit to save gasoline. A object, like a car or an arrow, that is going faster will be more affected by drag from the air around it than a slower moving object and will have a greater percentage decrease in velocity over a given period of time if no additional force is used (like a motor). So, the same object going faster will slow more quickly than when it starts off slower. The drag of the air converts the kinetic energy of the projectile into heat so that less energy is available. That is main reason that Swamp Pygmy has observed less penetration by an arrow at 30 yards than at 10 yards -- the energy in the arrow is less as the distance increases and the velocity decreases. At extreme velocity, the heat generated by the drag on a projectile in air can be impressive, like a meteor or the space shuttle becoming fiery hot on entering the earth's atmosphere. If there were no air to cause drag, an arrow would maintain its forward velocity until gravity accelerated its vertical velocity so that the arrow was pulled into the earth (actually they were pulled together, but the arrow's gravitational pull is so small that it can be ignored for all practical purposes).
The main purpose of the feathers is to guide the arrow by acting both as air foils and as drag devices. There can be some gyroscopic advantages, but even straight vanes will produce stable directional flight. Flu flu arrows are designed to have greater drag and slow an arrow even more quickly as a result. If the back of an arrow is trying to slow down faster than the front, the back end will stay at the rear and the front will stay at the front giving the arrow great directional stability but also slowing down the arrow. An unfletched arrow will be noticeably faster at 20 yards than a fletched arrow if the arrow flies straight, but the fletched arrow will be directionally much more stable.
A heavier arrow of the same length and diameter will have a higher sectional density, and, if the shape is the same, will have a higher ballistic coefficient. These terms will be very familiar to experienced rifle shooters. Sectional density relates very well to penetration of a more or less solid object, while ballistic coefficient describes the ease with which the projectile penetrates the air or some other low density fluid. If the shape of the projectile is exactly the same in every way, the higher the sectional density, the higher the ballistic coefficient. The higher the ballistic coefficient, the less the projectile will be affected by drag.
So, a projectile of the same shape that is heavier and slower will be less affected by drag than one that is lighter and slower. That is why a heavy arrow out of the same bow will not slow down as quickly as a lighter arrow. The bow will push the lighter arrow faster, but the heavy arrow will keep its speed up longer. Since the heavy arrow is going slower though, and the acceleration of the arrow towards the earth is constant for arrows of all weights and will bring both down to earth at the same time, the faster one will drop less at any given point as long as it is able to maintain a velocity advantage. That is why lighter arrows shoot flatter over typical shooting distances. That makes range estimation less critical and increases the odds of hitting the target as range increases unless you are very good at determining range and accommodating the arc of your arrow at various distances. The same types of problems are encountered with wind drift, but I won't go into that here.
When we start talking about penetration of a target, and specifically a game animal, other considerations are encountered. We all hear Dr. Ashby's theories and studies, but some of the reasoning is difficult to understand. The latest thing we have been hearing about is the single bevel issue. That all arises because when we use feathers, and especially when we use feathers with a helical twist, we impart spin to the arrow to help stabilize it. If the bevel of the broadhead is shaped to help maintain the spin of the arrow during its penetration into an animal, in the same direction as it was going during flight, less energy is lost and more energy can be retained for penetration. If the broadhead is shaped to stop the spin (double bevel) or reverse the spin (right hand single bevel broadhead on a left helical fletched arrow) substantial amounts of energy are used to stop the spin or reverse it and that energy is no longer available to aid in penetration. Also, the more energy that is lost in stabilizing the arrow in flight (because of excessive fletching or poorly tuned arrows) the less energy is available for penetration. Furthermore, if a poorly tuned arrow turns partly sideways and exposes more surface area in the air or at the target, the more energy will be expended on things other than driving the broadhead into the animal.
One of the other very important things to consider is how a broadhead (or a knife) cuts. One way is through micro tears from the rough edge that is present on even the most finely honed cutting surface. Under a microscope a knife edge has a very serrated appearance. These tiny "serrations" grab the tissue and tear it apart as the broadhead or knife cuts through the animal. For the most part, however, the ability to produce this penetrating cut arises from the EXTREMELY high pressure that is exerted at the very, very thin edge of the cutting tool. Because pressure is measured in units like pounds per square inch, just imagine how quickly the pressure will grow if the surface area is decreased dramatically. Think about how incredibly small the surface area is on the edge of a razor. That means the force is absolutely amazing when weight is applied to that surface. It is that same reason why needles can penetrate so much better than a flat piece of dowel. And even if you decrease the diameter of the piece of dowel by half, the pressure per square inch will be four times as high because area decreases by the square of the diameter. Think now of sharpening the dowel to a fine point and what that would do to the pressure. That is the idea of a nail and is the key to its ability to penetrate objects. The amount of force on the tiny amount of surface area on the point of the nail is tremendous. A razor edge is many times smaller than the point of a nail or a sharpened stick and also unzips the tissue along the length of a long, aerodynamic cutting edge, allowing the high drag shaft and fletching to follow a path of much less resistance after the hole has opened up. The main reason why a super sharp edge on a broadhead is so important is that it vastly increases the pressure on the cutting edge.
I know I have thrown out a lot of concepts here, but the main things to remember are the following:
1. Arrows that are weighted forward of center are inherently more stable because the front part wants to keep going forward due to the fact that drag affects it less than the lighter rear end of the arrow (the center of gravity is in front of the center of pressure).
2. Heavier arrows go slower but maintain their speed better, both in the air and in the target.
3. Lighter arrows go faster and have less drop at the same distance as a heavier arrow (one of the few advantages of a lighter arrow).
4. Fletching slows down an arrow, especially the rear part, so that it stays towards the rear and gives flight stability.
5. A well tuned arrow is more aerodynamic and will maintain its velocity and penetrate the target better.
6. A sharper broadhead edge will create far higher pressures at the target and will penetrate much better.
7. A bow is more efficient with arrows in a given range (arrows that are too heavy or too light can rob energy from the system).
Hopefully this may help someone understand why those in the know at Trad Gang (I am talking about people who are much more experienced than I am) recommend arrows on the somewhat heavy side that are well tuned and are tipped with extremely sharp cut on contact broadheads designed to work efficiently with the fletching (which should not be overdone with fletch that is far too big because it creates major drag). Also, because arrows do have quite a bit of drag and are not particularly high in energy levels (unlike large caliber rifle bullets fired at high velocities), distances from the archer to the animal should be kept as close as possible. Accuracy suffers too at distance, especially when sighting devices are not used, and accuracy is very important in hitting places that allow adequate penetration to vital organs that will result in quick deaths.
Sorry to be so wordy. Hope this helps someone. Maybe most of you already knew all this, and I certainly did not go into the detail this subject really deserves. I know Dr. Ashby has provided much better discussions of this than I have, but I wanted to approach it from a different viewpoint.
Allan
I have a challenge for those who raise their noses at 45 pound bows. Let me shoot into your car or truck door at 35 yards with my 46 pound longbow, a 500 grain cedar arrow and 160 grain Grizzly.
Then we will do the same with my 57 pounder. I'm betting, we will see very little difference in the penetration. I have tested this myself on an old Coleman Cooler. Both of them penetrated the side of the cooler, with the 57 pound about an inch deeper after the impact.
Those of you who have never used a 45 pound bow to hunt with, set up with decently heavy arrows and good broadheads, will have your eyes opened at what they can do. Perfect arrow flight is the key as well as accuracy.
My good friend Scotty can shoot his 68 pound Ron Maulding longbow, and I will shoot my 50 pound Tri-State Recurve and outshoot him by ten yards or more. Scotty has a 26" draw and I have a 28" draw. The two inches difference more than equalizes the power of the bows in this instance.
There are so many dynamic variables in this archery game to label a number as being too light or too heavy.
The first sentence of the sixth paragraph should have read, "So, a projectile of the same shape that is heavier and slower will be less affected by drag than one that is lighter and FASTER." Sorry for the typing error.
One other comment. There are many Trad Gangers who talk about their arrows flying like lawn darts. The reason lawn darts fly so well is this concept of the center of gravity being in front of the center of pressure. Lawn darts have LOTS of weight up front and large vanes in the rear. The weight up front moves the center of gravity way forward and the large vanes cause the pressure from the air flowing across those large surfaces to create drag and laminar air flow (both of which produce air pressure on the vanes) that moves the center of pressure on the dart way towards the back of the dart. The vanes are usually straight and impart almost no spin, so rotation is almost totally lacking as a stabilizing force. Lawn darts fly very true, but they have lots of drag and would make terrible arrows for many reasons. But the analogy of their flight to the flight of arrows is a good one and is used by many of you guys appropriately to describe how your arrows shoot.
Allan
Thanks, Allan. Made my brain sweat reading all that...but having been a gun nut myself in the past, much of what you shared brought back the logic of important stuff... Easy to forget how all that physical dynamic's stuff really does tie to archery...especially as we push the envelope.
Thanks for taking time to word such a well-done, thought-provoking piece without admonishments... just like Sgt. Friday on "Dragnet" used to say, "just the facts, ma'm, just the facts."
:)
George is absolutely correct. By drawing his lower poundage bow over a longer draw length, the weight versus draw length curve has more area below it which is how we can determine the potential energy stored in the bow. George stores lots of energy in those extra two inches that his friend does not have. That energy is then transfered to the arrow on release. We should also remember that the extra two inches is at the place where the draw weight is the highest -- at the end of the draw -- and that is where the most energy is stored for every inch of draw. In addition, the arrow stays on the string longer when shot from a longer draw, so the energy transfer can be transmitted longer and the bow can be more efficient in converting the stored potential energy to kinetic energy.
Allan
Excellent post Allan :bigsmyl: I shoot a 42 lbs@28 inch Banshee(hybrid longbow)drawn 28.5 inches and use Gold Tip Entrada 600's cut to 29.5 inches with a 190 grain field point/broadhead. That gives me a FOC of 20.3% with a total arrow weight of 402 grains. This fall I expect full penetration if not total pass thru's on any deer I shoot. That is if I do my part and avoid the major bones.
This has become a very interesting and informative thread. I am not sold on the lighter weight bow (under 50lb.) but I am going to give it a try. I have to lose a about a 100 lbs. and I know I will lose some strengh. I have a set of 45lb. limbs (FF capable ) for my Bear takedown. I think I will try the ST Axis shafts (500 spine)with 100 grain inserts. I may get more draw length from the lighter limbs. Will these shafts be ok or should I go to my 400 spine. I draw 28.5 in now?
It worked out great for me...I have a bad shoulder from way too much tennis and dropping 5 lbs in draw weight really helped me to enjoy shooting again.
I shot about 65# for too many years, until my shoulders told me to back off. Insisted, in fact. Now I shoot 50, and I don't miss the heavy draw weight at all. I don't notice a real difference in trajectory, because the lower draw weight bows shoot a somewhat lighter arrow, and my shooting picture seems the same. I still have plenty of mass, and the deer don't seem to care how far the arrow sticks in the dirt after it goes through them.
About heavy arrows and distance- Dan Quillian insisted that the same tuned longbow and arrows would shoot farther with heavier points than with lighter points. His theory, which he claimed to have proven in the field, was that there was enough more retained energy imparted by the additional weight to extend the range. Same aerodynamics, more energy. He also said the same is not true of compounds, because the longbow increases efficiency with increasing arrow weight, and a compound decreases efficiency with increasing arrow weight. Within reason, the heavier the arrows the better with longbows, and the lighter the better with compounds.
In my experience, The difference in the impact point of my arrows is negligible if I go up in arrow weight by 100 grains with my longbow, I think because the efficiency increases proportionately.
Great post, Allan.
gunner, the 500's should be just right at that weight, you will have to play with arrow length some....
Thanks larry, I will give it a shot. I like the smaller size shaft, better penatration from what I have seen on 3d's with my 55lb. bows. The Axis seemed easier to bare shaft than the CE's.
Thanks agian, Tom
the smaller diameter shaft puts the shaft closer to center, therefore you can shoot a slightly stiffer arrow...that may be the reason for the ease of tuning for your setup w/the axis.
Hello Don, good to see your post.
Guys, Mr Stokes has a wealth of knowledge concerning bows and arrows and their performance. He'll graciously give credit to others (like he did with Dan above) but rest assured he knows what he's talking about!
The thing I like about the Trad Gang is not just what a great bunch of guys are part of it, but also what I learn from everyone. The collective knowledge of the Gang is amazing. Thanks all of you.
Allan
Thanks for the kind words, Biggie. I've been laying low for a while, but archery, and talking about it, keeps coming out. I got very tired of that other site, and I was pleased to find that this one has taken off.
"It's in him, and it's got to come out"- John Lee Hooker
"It's not some game I play, it's in my DNA, it's what I do"- Donald Fagen
That quotations thing in the signatures has me going, I guess.
Re the light vs heavy poundage, when I was a kid in the 1950's and 60's, a hunting bow was typically 40-45#, and tons of game were killed with them, mostly with cedar shafts tipped with Bear razorheads. I knew a guy who shot 60# back then, and all the other bowhunters around (there weren't that many 'cause there weren't many deer)were in awe of his prowess.
It wasn't until the compound came along and brought a whole bunch of new archers into the sport that folks began to think that they needed 60# or more to kill a deer. When I started the Superceder shaft business with Dan's help about 15 years ago, the average traditional archer shot 60# or more, because that's what they shot with the compound they'd learned on. Because of this, we designed our plant to make high-spined shafts that were practically unobtainable in the cedar that dominated the market. We also barrel-tapered them both for performance and so that we could use shafts with diameters greater than 23/64- there were no taper tools or points for anything larger. The heavy bows in vogue then really complicated our attempt to do business!
Fortunately, as a group we've wised up, and now the average is probably closer to 50, and as this thread illustrates, is coming down. That's a good thing. 40# from a modern efficient bow will kill anything on the continent. I'm living proof that those heavy bows will damage your body if you overdo it. I can't shoot nearly as much as I'd like to, now. Shoulders.
My first buck was taken with a 45# recurve. My next one will likely be in the same range.
Thanks for the information and history Don. You also brought some very fond memories back to me - the Superceder shafts. I still have two left out of my first dozen. I would shoot nothing else if I had them today. I loved those arrows and they served me well out of several different bows.
Like Don my 1st buck was taken with a 45# bow. Shot clean thru. Add about 50 after that with the same weight bow and cedar shaft.
I got caught up in the heavier bow deal too. Ended up at 65# and shot that weight for years until my elbow told me no more!
I'm back down to 55# and have no qualms about dropping more if I have to. I love seeing my arrows in flight again too.
Hey, I have an idea for a new slogan;
45#ers, putting the arch back into archery!
My accuracy is about the same. I enjoy shooting much more. I have taken more game. I probably move less when drawing the lighter bow.
lol. @biggie. I like that one. I always thought that was a cute slogan for a bow company.
Hey I got one for hoyt.
"We hit ya where it Hoyts" the checkbook.
Just this year I pulled out an old 1968 Bear K Hunter with a C style handle while some buddies were over. It is 44# @ 28". I pull nearly 31" so it is shooting a little stronger. Dang if I didn't shoot it really well!
Not just well, BUT GREAT! I hadn't shot that bow in years. I forgot how smooth it was. I'm thinking the 55#@28" DH Hunter may stay on the wall for hunting season this year.
That evening the guys were over may have been the first time that bow had EVER had a carbon nocked up on it (actually it may have been the first time it has ever had anything but cedar nocked up).
OkKeith
Hi All,
I sold my Bear Kodiak Takedown (82#) to a fellow Tradganger, and bought a Tomahawk (50#) from a fellow Tradganger. Didn't increase my accuracy, but it only took a day or two on the range to come back on target.
I shot 75-80# bows for a few years and than settled on 60-65#s for around 7-8 Years. I took a bad fall going up a tree and dislocated both my shoulders. After shoulder surgery I dropped down to 52-54#s at my draw of 28.5"s. It took a few months but my release became better than it was and as long as I stay away from hard bone I have no problem killing any deer. I will also say this, I have a tendency to shoot deer a little forward and with a sharp 3 blade(Snuffer)and an arrow around 9.5 grains per pound I can shoot them thru the shoulders and get an exit on the off side as long as I do not hit bone. I am working on staying off that shoulder though. Th edeer I shoot with 50#s or so are just as dead as the first one I killed with 82#s by the way. Shawn
Accuracy was not the issue. If your form and release are good, so will your shot be. I wanted to be able to shoot a couple of hundred arrows in a day without getting tired. Whitetails are about the largest animal I hunt these days so I dropped back to 43# so I can draw when cold. The only problem I have now is that I can't put my bow down. Maybe that's why I am shooting better than ever. :D
Now I've started thinking about that set of limbs for my Patriot TD that's about 40#, maybe 43. I think the arrows I shoot from my longbow will be just right, but I'll have to make some for hunting- my draw will increase about an inch. And those rabbits that have been threatening my garden...