Trad Gang

I have a dream of building bows and selling them out of my home.  The freedom of working my own schedule is very appealing to me.  I still have a ways to go before my bows satisfy me, and would be something I would be proud of selling.  I am making good progress in my learning curve though.  I am blessed in that I have a steady pension check from Uncle Sam in payback for all my years in the Navy.  I would have to build a shop and buy new tools.  My overhead would be small, and I don't figure I would have to build many to pay my bills.  I can build one a week in a corner of my garge.  A new shop and real tools would really help things along.  I really enjoy working with the bamboo backed bows, and would probably stay away from the glass market.  I think the bamboo backed market is smaller, but could keep me busy.  What kind of insurance would I need for something like this.  Help me to realize a dream folks.  I figure you folks will give me the most valuable advice.  All suggestions welcome.  Thanks for listening, Marty

sounds great, if its something you want to do and enjoy doing it then go for it! The number of archers is increasing all over the world so thats in your favor.
cant give much advice on insurance state side.
i wish you the best Marty

Though not an authority you would certainly need some sort of product liability insurance to cover the product and of course insurance to cover your shop, tools, etc.
A friend has a website he is developing to help entrapneurers with their business start ups  and he could help with your marketing, etc.
Good luck and achieve your dream.

definitely get liability insurance and set up an LLC to protect your personal property should anyone ever try to sue.

Apex,
I have seen your bows.  Beautiful works!  I build bows as well, so I know how much work is involved.  My vision for my own little bow company is to let it evolve.  I don't have the luxury of a military retirement like you do, but if I did I  very well might be in the same boat as you...
But I digress, here is the point I was coming to.  My Dad used to teach small business at Boise State University.  The school has a small business development counseling service as well.  I'd whole-heartedly recommend checking into something like that if you are serious.  There is A LOT they can help you with, from business planning to what kind of insurance you need to helping you write grants to get some tools.... Hope it helps, drop me a PM if you want more info or want to chat about your business...
Mike

And by the way, I think "Apex archery" sounds pretty cool!

There was a time in my life when I thought guiding hunters would be the ideal career for me. I loved to hunt and figured that was a natural path for me to go down, so I tried it for a year part time. What I found was there was a huge difference between doing what I loved to do, and trying to do the same thing for customers. Some were good, some were bad, but in the end trying to meet the expectations of others took all the fun out of it for me and it just became another job.

FWIW - I'm not in any way trying to discourage you from your dream. I'm just relaying my experiences to give you another perspective. Working for yourself is hard. Harder than working for someone else and a whole lot more stressful. Anyone who tells you differently has either never done it or is trying to take your money (infomecials)

I wish you luck whatever you decide.   :thumbsup:

I always have heard not to turn your hobby into your lively hood, it really takes the pleasure out of the hobby when customers or time frames start pushing ya.
  I dream every day about quitting my job but even after 30 years here I dont think I would have the nads to do it with the economy as it is right now.
I hope ya can swing it any one who can without putting family in a bind has to chase that dream. Good luck hope it works for ya.

Marty, what did you do in the Navy?  Retired AO1 here......Good luck with your dream......

Apex

Coupla points.   I have done this twice, once while still working and once while retired.    While working, I started building muzzle loaders on the side.   I loved doing it and there were people who kept buying what I built.   I'd build something that i thought appealing, then offer it.   However, I totally ruined it for myself when I started accepting orders.  Building to order, and dealing with time demands, became a terrible burden.   The individual craftsman is very vulnerable... family problems, illness, whatever can affect his ability to work.   I found myself getting behind, then people wanted things, rightfully, on the schedule i had thought I could meet...  Problems... and I finally just quit it.

After I retired, I started building hand carved wood ventriloquist figures.   Having learned my lesson, I built only what I wanted, and never accepted an order.   I was pretty fair at it and always had folks anxious for a Captain Dick figure.  I used to joke that my sales technique was to finish a figure, go into a closet and whisper "I have one ready..."  then go out and answer the phone. I did this for quite a few years, until it reached a point where the appropriate charge, based on time and material, was more than I was comfortable making people pay, like $1500... and that was ten years ago, and I was noted for the simplicity of my figures.  Today, I don't think there's anyone still offering wood figures... all fiberglass.

Point is, make sure that you set yourself up so that you continue to enjoy doing it and don't turn it into a pressure job where you try to meet everyone else's expectations.

Good luck...

Captain Dick in Seattle

The advantage you have over most other people who pursue the dream of turning a hobby into a business is that you don't have the pressure of earning your entire livelyhood from it.  In my mind that would make a huge difference.

The advice about getting help from outside sources to develop a business plan is excellent!  Colleges and universities, as well as county extention offices often have excellent programs available at little or no cost.  Well worth the time to take advantage of it!

I will find myself in somewhat the same situation very soon.  I am retiring from my present job by the end of summer and plan to pursue something in the area of my interests and passions.  I hope that I can make enough to pay for a few hunting trips each year, and hope that will keep the pressure off and allow it to continue to be fun rather than work.

Good luck - if you don't follow your dreams they will never come true!  And if it doesn't work you will still end up with some nice tools!

I would have to agree with Brent, I don't want to take any enthusiasm out of your dream, but ! There is that bad word "but", I also had a business, I tried to start a business back in the 80's it never got off the ground because I didn't have "family backing", that disappeared, and when I came to Minneapolis, I met a young lady, that dreamed with me, and stood beside me, so my photography business, which was a hobby, became a business, I was determined not to borrowing money to make the business work, I used what I had, and as the business grew, I was able to purchase what I needed.  It worked out well, until it became a
24/7.  And that's because for lack of words, I was good at what I was doing.  I developed the marketing, the execution, and the product.  What really made it take off was I added my wife's name to the business name.  That way we had both female and male gender taking photographs, and people like that.  What I found out was that photography was about 5% of the business, the rest was marketing, office management, product management, then vendor management, and getting those products from the vendors in a timely manner.

Just like Brent said, " trying to meet the expectations of others took all the fun out of it"

That's what did it for me in my business I finally developed a phrase

 " your emergencies are not my expectations"
although I never said that to the customer that was my attitude.  To keep my sanity of course

Because in photography a lot of people want it right now !

That's not the way it's going to be in a bow business, so I think.  I also found out that the rules of the business were made up for 1 to 3% of the customers, and you need to stick by those rules, your business will not flourish.  I didn't believe that at first, and then I started having myself and my business analyzed by other professionals.  I had my business for 12 years (in Minnesota) we went from $30,000 the first year to averaging $110,000 a year, the majority of my out go was vendor product, and technical equipment.  That's not going to be that way in a bow business, the best piece of equipment that you're going to have is your heart.  And that's what you put into your bows, yes, they will be made out of wood, but the character and dedication and loyalty that you'll have in making every bow will be your best asset.

And that is priceless.  The attitude of your heart will govern the outcome of your business.  And like you've heard many times before

"it is not about the destination it's about the journey"

And you're right, the best part of it will be having your own schedule, " right "

The best part of my business was when my wife left her job, and we worked together 24/7, and to this day 10 years later, we wish we had that opportunity again, but then again when we look at all the frustration of the expectations of the high dollar customer, we think again.  But remember that was in photography.  I called it
"the Cinderella syndrome" where everything had to be perfect for that one day, and if one thing was wrong, everything was messed up according to that bride.  I guess the part that I liked about wedding photography, was you only got one chance to get it right.

 Yes you do have to think about the financial things, and the insurance, and all the things that go along with the marketing in the business, but the one most important thing that you have to think about is,

Am I ready to commit myself, knowing all that I know about myself, and am I willing to lay down my attitude before me and give myself up for others in such a special way, " making bows"

Just some things to think about, and after all I could be all wet, I am just one opinion.
But one opinion can change the world.

Think about the memories of the fathers and sons that you will change forever by being dedicated to making the best bow that is out there.


Pastor Carl

" Point is, make sure that you set yourself up so that you continue to enjoy doing it and don't turn it into a pressure job where you try to meet everyone else's expectations "

Very well said


Carl

If it were me I would go ahead and build a shop and get my tools while I had extra income form my other job.

I think it is a fine idea but would make sure I could make the bills even without selling a single bow.I don't know your family situation but you have to consider how it would effect them.

I think the safest way to do it is to get everything going in just your spair time.Then when you reach the point where you can't keep up with orders and still work,quit work.

I hate to Show My Own Ignorance  :banghead:   on the Liability, etc.  WHAT  in the World does  LLC  stand For??  :confused:

Hey Marty, I like Captain Dick's strategy.  Don't take any orders, just build them and then offer them up for sale.  With some of the beauties you're turning out, you won't have any problem finding a market.  Matter of fact, let me know when you get one in the 60# @ 27" range.  I might be able to help you get rid of it!

Brilliant, Captain Dick.

Best wishes on the "journey," Apex!

I like the Whispering in the closet tip!  I think building them and then selling them is the way to go.  I'll put you on my short list Chris.

Shakes, an L.L.C. are a Limited Liability Company.  A short version of how it affects a business is you get the tax benefits of a Sole Proprietorship (where you are only taxed once), and the liability benefits of a corporation (where if you are sued, to a certain extent, they can only go after the company assets, not your personal assets).  There are limits to both of the descriptions but these are the condensed basics.

Sounds good, Marty! I think you would do well! I certainly really like the look of your bows!  ;)  
Good luck with it all!  :thumbsup:

LLC- Limited Liability Company.

I was just up at Brackenburry Bows with Bill Howland. We got to shooting bows when he had to inform me of a liability waiver before shooting the bows. Not that I mind, its just sad how lawsuits have effected all of us.  Can't seem to trust anyone to have common sense or accept responsibility for their actions.

Limited Liability Corporation if I am not mistaken.

My apologies to all - in an earlier response I mentioned that a friend of mine had a marketing website  www.traditionalarcherymall.com. (http://www.traditionalarcherymall.com.)  HOWEVER, in communications with him today I was informed that while he does own the name he has not yet opened this site to advertisers. You may express your desires for him to expedite his site by contacting him at info@theshootingmall.com.

Sorry for the confusion.

I survived 20 years without a day job, thanks to a very low material appetite, no children, a cheap-date wife, and no mortgage. I worked my butt off, "living my passion," and survived. I would do it all again, if I did it all the same way again. For anyone with normal responsibilities, I can't advise it. And too, there's always the risk of losing your passion when you turn it into a job. I'd say, get your product where you want it, start selling, and only when you can't keep up with the demand, give up that day job. But then, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." But then and then, "Nothing ventured, nothing lost." Interesting times for all of us. Best luck. d

Heres what I can tell ya.  I manage a wholesale/retail fishing store.  I used to love to fish.  Dont go at all now.  Materials are due to go up a minimum of 10% this year and projected another 30% or so over the next 3-5.  That seems to be the consensus regardless of the type of business your in.

You never have enough time for yourself or family.  Heres my suggestion.  Dont price them to sell, price them so that it bothers you not to make it because your making enough money to make it worth your time.  If it were me I would let my customers know right upfront there aint no bow building from Halloween till about Christmas!!  A mans gotta hunt.  

Good luck whatever you decide.

Just do it part time...dealing with the public can be tough......Id build Glass bows, if I had the gift...

Go for it. Life is too short.The worst that could happen is it fails.But you wouldn't sitting around saying "what if".
My two cents.                                                   Mike

You will be fine as long as you control the terms.
When someone else controls the terms of what you are doing, then you are doing what they want instead of what you want.
Quit!!!
You can always get another job.
Brian
Self employed designer, painter, carpenter and whatever else I feel like doing.

LLC is limited liability corporation.
Insurance would be about $800-$1200 per year.
I know of 2 people who have quit their jobs to build custom bows. One is having a very tough time, lost his home etc. then went in less than 12 months went back to a paying job. The other one is doing well enough to make ends meet.

I'm not rushing into anything folks.  I really appreciate all the advice, and most of it is spot on.  I just needed to hear some others say it.  I ain't quitin my day job any time soon.  I have dreams though!  I have much to learn, and think I will enjoy it a while longer before possibly ruining it.

Apex Preditor sounds like a great name for a bow.
Burr and Co. is who I have my ins. with.
There are alot of things to think about with a bow busines that may not be aparent at first here are a few off the top of my head.
1 Federal Exise tax 11% and that is of the sale price not after deducting expenses.
2 Equipment maintenance
3 Equipment ins.(fire theft)
4 Structure ins.
5 Liability ins.
6 product ins. at shows incase some one wipes you out while everyone is away for the night
7 expenses at shows
8 advertising
9 web site/web master
Im not trying to scare you just something more to thing about (as if there wasent enough to consider already) of and forget about shooting as much as you use to.When you decide to do it give me a call or e-mail and I will give you all the ins. contacts I can.Some of the great things you already know like meeting great people.Hope this helps.
Bill

I think it is easier to keep the day job and work hard on keeping up your bow business. That way yu have guranteed income for a bit. When you see the bow business is truly funding itself and the base business is real (the usiness supports itself) then quit your day job.

When I started doing taxidermy it was a fresh start and with little money. Not saying you are starting that way, as I don't know your situation, but a business is not the easiest thing to start.

Guess I am a cautious one, I wish you the best, believe in you dreams they do come true.

J

Hey be sure I get a email about your bows!!! always looking for another one! lol

Marty,

Some good point made here. I want you to "make it happen". If building bows is what you want to do then get started. Life is too short to say "I wish I would have _____?"

Do not get old and say I wish I would have....

John III

AP, sent you a PM

JIM
Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt

Well you got to remember that there are more small businesses going under every year then start.  In today's economy, I'm seeing more bowyers folding the tent.  The problem is; what do you do when the phone stops ringing.  It's one thing to build a bow and troll it on the TradGang and sell it.  And quite another to pay the toll in advertising and sponsorships.  Then try and build em and sell em fast enough to keep the business rolling and meet payroll.  LOL  Payroll. . .that would be a good thing.

Anyway keep your dream. . .but make sure you keep it real.  I did it six years ago and we are just now starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.  Hope it's not a train coming our way.

Good Luck,

Mike and Jason

I haven't read all the replies, but as a guy with an LLC ... you need to find a good lawyer and a good accountant.  Setting-up an LLC is easy, but a good lawyer and accountant know all the little details and will help ensure you don't make bad decisions.

I think the biggest thing is building your name.  If you have a good name a good a good product people will buy.  Its taken me about 5 years of steady work to get a name for myself, and I am enjoying it. If I didn't enjoy what I do there is no way that I would be doing it for as long as I have.  I am no where near rich nor will I ever be, but I do have a piece of mind.

I retired early 2 1/2 years ago.I had grown to hate my occupation of 38 years.I always had wanted to run cattle and had reached a point that I could get a pension that would make ends meet,no frills but I could do what I wanted and when I woke in the morning I didn't dread going to work.Unfortunatly I don't have the money to do all the things I used to do,but I enjoy all that I do.Follow your dream if you can afford it as long your willing to give up some of your income.Worst case is you may have to get a job later to subsidize you income.Last time I heard you only live once.  Ben

I echo the sentiments of others along the line of "orders and deadlines could take the fun out of it". Several years ago I entertained of selling my bows and turkey calls on the Side. My philosophy was build an expensive bow and take few orders...booom .... I was wrong... I had 10 deposits in a flash...then I had DEADLINE!..I gave money back...it almost lost its fun for me......so now I make one or two a year for friends and it's still alot of fun......

One tip I have though is get the BEST dust collecting system you can afford....good luck and support your state Tradtidional org...they will support you...

yeah, Joebuck 's right ....take the fun right out in hurry ....But Joey ya had cool name "Swamprooter"....  :thumbsup:  ya gotta love it! Marco#78

Thanks for the Clarification Walt!! Might know,  INSURANCE RULES THE WORLD  :readit:   , and the Courts are  FULL  of EveryBody Sueing Everybody Else.  :banghead:   Anything for a Buck.  

Some of whats been said really rings true with me. What was once a passion turned into a drudgery for me. The drudgery comes only from allowing the business to run you, rather than you running the business. If like me, you suck at the business end and have someone who can take care of that part of it with you, then by all means stick to what you enjoy and are good at.

From the time I took a bow out of the heat box,I was driven to work it non-stop until I could put a string on it and shoot it.

The satisfaction of shooting that first arrow through it and feel the unique energy from that particular bow was like nothing else.

After shooting a bow, if I said, "This is a sweeeeeeet shooter, I wanna keep it", I would let it go out the door. If it didnt have that perfect balance between sweet & smooth, and quick & lively, I would keep it for testing (like leaning it against a tree for a full ten day downpouring rain blacktail hunt on Kodiak, repeated dry-firing, etc.)

It was this drive to shoot each new creation and live the lifestyle that allowed me to pump out the bows, but I resented any and all external pressure to produce. I didnt realize though that we create our own reality. It's only a matter of perception. A money-making hobby is only a business if you call it one.

Chances are that if you are a true craftsman, then your motivation comes from inside, and not from the almighty buck. If you accept that you arent going to get rich from it, choose the pace you are comfortable with, and stick to your guns, then I cant think of a more rewarding way to spend your days.

I stopped building and selling because that little conditioned voice kept telling me that I NEED to make more money and become financially secure. I stopped also because I could see that it becoming a business was taking some of the joy out of it. BUT>>>> years later I realized that not one thing I had done or dollar I earned since, even came close to bringing me the joy I derived from creating a piece of working art that is a custom bow, and then sharing it with others.

Life is short. Do what you feel in your heart is what will bring you AND others the most joy. If we give the best of ourselves to others, the best in life will come back to us. It may not come in the way of greenbacks, but then there are an aweful lot of miserable rich people.

Im moving from this awesome state soon, to a place where the cost of living is less than half what it is here so that I can again use the gifts and the passion for bow and rod building God gave me. I have faith that He will provide as long as I give it my all and give Him the glory.

It's the sharing of your passion with others that will make your business a success. People will see it in you and want some of it. Build it and they will come. I wish you all the best!!!