So what are your thoughts on intentionally shooting through a deer's shoulder to reach the vitals? Obviously, a broadside or quartering away shot is preferred, but if a "through the shoulder" shot is your only option, would you take it?
My setup is a 60lb @31" handmade longbow with fir arrows and 190gr VPA three blade broadheads. I'm hoping to keep my shots within 20 yards and am assuming I should have enough energy to penetrate enough through a scapula but would love to hear from those with more experience.
Thanks
I have punched through shoulders by accident and it worked out. I don't do it on purpose.
I wouldn't advise it on purpose. Unlike Roger my experience with trad bows and shoulder hits has not been positive. I think it depends a lot on what part of the shoulder you are talking about. If you hit the flat scapula blade part, it will typically blow through that, but if you hit square on the main joint knuckle - good luck? I shot a buck with a zwickey Eskimo and hit him right in the heavy knuckle part. The arrow barely penetrated and fell out after a few leaps of the deer as he dashed away. When I recovered the arrow the tip on the Eskimo was curled right over. I was shooting 45-50 lb recurves.
I have hit the shoulder by accident, and it didn't work. You may get through if you just nick the scapula, but you won't if you hit it anywhere near the center. It's a poor shot choice, regardless of the weight bow you're shooting.
For me, even on broadside shots I avoid the shoulder bone. When i was shooting 55lbs and arrows weighing 580grs I never penetrated enough with a two blade when i hit the shoulder by accident. Now I use a big three blade or four blade broadhead or a simmons and aim a little farther back just to make sure i miss the shoulder. I've recovered every liver shot deer I've had, probably because of the size of the broadhead doing so much damage.
I don't even do it intentionally with a rifle. I hate having to throw away a bunch of ruined bloodshot meat.
Why would you do that intentionally? makes no sense to me... i know it happens now and then, but i couldn't see a good reason to do it on purpose. Kirk
Here we go... kick the hornets nest. With 680 grain arrows and high FOC single bevels... this is a highly effective shot.
Hornets released....
Back in my compound shooting days I hit a couple in the shoulder unintentionally and it didn't work out. That was with fixed blades and a heck of a lot more firepower/KE than a 60# stick bow. I agree with Kirk 100%. Not a wise choice to take that shot intentionally. Wait for a broadside shot and if it doesn't happen, let the animal walk and hope you cross paths again.
I've built my arrows according to Dr. Ashby's principles. He's proven this. If he can't convince you- I never will. I've seen how devastating they are. This is not even a marginal shot to me... this is a dead deer. If a mature buck appears quartering to... you can hope he turns broadside.. I'm killing him.
I've made that shot successfully with a compound at short range, lodging in the humerus on the far side.
I'll pass on that shot now but will try and see what kind of penetration I get on a deboned scapula with my setup if I get the opportunity.
Thanks
Agree with the "not on purpose" answers. (Image from Fity.club)
Here comes the swarm. "Not intentionally" realizes that none of us are perfect and things happen. So is it more ethical to unintentionally wound a deer with an arrow you know can't penetrate bone or intentionally blow through a shoulder with an arrow that carries over 20 years of study on breaching heavy bone? It would be nice if every deer I shoot from this day forward would stand perfectly still... slightly quartering away at 12 yards. If they would only get in proper dying position... I wouldn't have to shoot these bunker busters.
Back in the late 1980's I was hunting my club in Oglethorpe Co, GA. With about 5 to 10 minutes of shooting light left I heard a buck rubbing a tree out in front of me then he walked out to the clearing, turned right and stopped with his left leg forward about 14 yards away from my stand. My stand was low, about 8" off the ground. I drew, anchored and released. I heard a whack, not a thump and the deer took off. I could hear him running, slapping the heavy ash shaft(600gr) against trees.
I was shooting a 45# to 50# Jeffery's recurve with a Grizzly double bevel head. We trailed that deer for 5 hours that night and a similar length the next morning with only an occasional drop of blood. Never recovered the buck but surmised it was a shoulder hit. We only found the back half of my shaft, brokers across the edge grain.
If the quartering to through the shoulder shot is all I've got, then I don't have a shot. I'll wait!
Sloughfoot, you seem to by implying you've had 100% success on this shot with the arrows you described. Can you tell us how many deer or other critters you've killed with that specific shot and what bow weight was used?
My average arrow is 680 grains. 23% foc. Very sharp 3 to 1 shape single bevel. My average draw weight is ~58#. I live in an area of vast bottomland hardwoods and Agriculture. Pigs are everywhere. I could dang near shoot a pig whenever I want. If you look at the anatomy of a pigs shoulder blade... not only is it more robust than a deer, but the position of it is- - well good luck routinely avoiding it. Yes I've made this shot on many deer and will again. These arrows penetrate shoulders easily. Again guys all I did was read the Ashby study and build arrows accordingly.
If you look close at the skeleton of the deer in the photo provided earlier. You will see there is a pretty decent size kill zone that doesn't involve shoulder blades. I shoot 60# or more and I would not intentionally nor have I ever intentionally shot at a deer or hogs shoulder blade.
With most people these days shooting 40-45 pounds, from what I've seen on the forums and in person. I think it's best to continue avoiding the shoulder blade on game animals.
I think it's best to avoid the guts. How many animals are unintentionally gut shot every year? Im not giving up 50% of kill zone that I've seen to be very effective and humane shots. Anyone who takes the time to read Ashby study on bone breaching arrow lethality-45#s is plenty.
I read Ashbys study many years ago long before it became a fad and YouTube talking point lol. I don't doubt Ashbys findings on single bevel broadheads, arrow weight or the FOC arrow information. I don't think it's a guaranteed outcome.
The only way the shoulder blade is taking up 50% of the kill zone is if your shooting deer quartering to you. Broadside or quartering away, the two preferred bowhunting shots, the shoulder blade takes up very little of the kill zone. And that's why these two shots have been the primary targets by most bowhunters.
You can shoot a 1500 grain arrow from a 45# bow with any magic broadhead you can buy and you are not guaranteed to get thru the shoulder blade.
A gut shot is a bad shot, a shoulder shot is a bad shot. Neither should be intentional. Practice and shot selection are two ways of minimizing a bad hit. Nothing in hunting is guaranteed.
You don't dispute the findings but call the most comprehensive study on arrow penetration ever conducted a fad. Interesting. A well tuned high foc 700 grain arrow with a 3 to 1 single bevel shot from a 48# bow will absolutely blow through a large pigs shoulder resulting in a devastating top of heart shot and rapid death. Don't be surprised when the arrow breaks backside ribs or leg depending upon angle. This is what I've seen repeatedly. Take it or leave it but cant sell me on this "impenetrable" shoulder stuff. I'm thoroughly convinced none of you have tried this arrow setup. This will be my last post on this. Good luck this season.
Mr. Ashby was a member of Tradgang when he came out with his studies, and they were thoroughly debated and followed when they came out. I wouldn't dispute your success with that kind of shot Ben, but it wouldn't be the type shot that should be taught or encouraged. Just like the guys that would take a head on shot with success doesn't mean it should be encouraged. There are a lot of members on here, myself included, with many years of experience bowhunting, and most of us can recall instances of failed shoulder shots regardless of FOC and overall arrow weight. It sounds like you have a perfectly tuned set up and that works for you. Good luck this season and welcome to Tradgang.
The original Natal study by Dr. Ashby was from 1986-1987. How many of the new Ashby experts even knew it existed before 2017? Lol
That's a fad.
It has came and gone and now came back around again. Same with the Grizzly single bevel broadheads you have any idea how long they have been around? Now you can buy an exact copy made from kryptonite or something cool that costs $70 each, the old grizzly Elgrande sold for 1.50 each and do the same thing.
It's exactly like tree saddles. They were a thing alooong time ago. They went away and now they are back and you'd swear it was something new.
The Ashby studies have been around a long long time. In 2005 they had an update that got some attention but now it's the newest thing in bowhunting. Sure it is. I think everyone that was interested in arrow penetration has tried it and either found it
Unnecessary or did not like the rainbow trajectory or jumped in whole hog. Either way it's nothing new. And it will pass again and so will tree saddles and the new discovery shooting 3 under.
Some things like a quality affordable broadhead placed in the right spot from a hunting weight bow gets the job done always have and always will.
No go shot for me, I'll wait for a more high percentage shot or I`ll pass. Not worth wounding an animal to me.
I track over 100 deer each year with my dogs and with my network of buddies over 500. During both season, we go on numerous tracks where the arrow is broken off with less than 2 inches of penetration to the shoulder. This happens with Crossbow's and trad bows. We also get tons of calls for Deer with broken shoulders. I would not aim with the shoulder with any weapon.