OK heavier is better more or less, but when do you start to loose what you have gained by having a heavier arrow. Obviously rebar wont perform out of a 60 lb bow.
I have a 57lb loonbow shooting about 600-615 grain arrow, if i move up to a 650-670 grain arrow will I add more momentum and increase penetration, given flight is not altered??
They fly great now, are super quiet but there was that deer I hit in the shoulder blade at 30yards, found the arrow 150 yards down the trail,did not penetrate the scapula?? will another 50 grains matter?
Thanks for the wisdom and advice and everything else.
You are alittle over 10 grs. per pound and your arrows are flying great.A heavier arrow will penetrate better but it's anybody guess if another 50 grs. would made a difference then.I saw a video with a guy shooting a blackpowder rifle at a big buck and the buck was angling towards him.You could see in the slo-mo camera where the bullet hit him in the shoulder,nocked the deer down.But did not penetrate the deer,you could see the bullet hit the shoulder and just roll down the deers side.I don't see anything wrong with your current set-up.It should be good enough for any critter you want to hunt in the states.Your arrows are flying great,have you bareshafted them.I think a well tuned arrow will penetrate better because the fletching is not fighting to keep the arrow going straight but just guiding it.
In a recent article in TBM there was a chart on arrow weight/kinetic energy. I believe that the optimum was around 11 Grains per pound of draw weight. I don't know if that is optimum for all bows or not. As far as the shoulder shot at the deer, there are to many variables such as broadhead type, percentage FOC, shot angle, etc.. I believe that even as much as we try to optimize our shooting, and our hunting setups, that isolated incidents like these are bound to happen. Just my .02 cents. Mark
YEah i think too many variables, if your arrows are flying great you seem to have a good GPI. You might chalk that shoulder hit up to bad luck - I no it stinks but??? It is an interesting question though.
J
Lash -- there's more to penetration than arrow weight. What kind of broadhead were you using? In my humble view, first we get the right broadhead -- one of the stronger and narrower and heavier two-blades -- then we work on getting the max arrow weight we can shoot accurately at our personal max range, which is generally stated as 20 yards but different for everyone. If you have a weak broadhead up front, or a poor design, it can cancel out a lot of arrow weight. So can imperfect flight, which bleeds off speed and can lead to angled impacts. I'm shooting very heavy arrows, but I hunt elk and I hold my shots to 15 yards ... beyond that it's like a mortar trajectory. I'm surprised with the arrow weight and bow weight you list that you didn't get through a deer scapula. Glancing hit, and/or weak or poorly designed head is my guess. Also, at longer ranges we lose a lot of oomph. Sorry to go on so long,dave
All other things being equal, another 50 grains of arrow weight will increase penetration a little. But what you have is already plenty for deer size game. At 20 yards, there will be little noticeable difference in trajectory. Will become more noticeable after that. I shoot arrows of both weights out of the same weight longbows -- 57-60 pounds. I generally shoot the 600 plus grain arrows for deer, and about 700 grain arrows for elk.
Will the extra 50 grains or so guarantee going through the shoulder? Nope. What Dave said. Broadhead design, high FOC and arrow flight are right up there in importance with weight. Over the years, I've hit a few deer in the shoulder blade/scapula, shots from above, and I have yet to penetrate one. Maybe a hit around the edge or on a small deer will make it through, but very unlikely on a hit on the heavy part of the bone on a mature deer. And, extremely unlikely on elk, IMO.
A bad hit is just that and more weight would not have helped.A lighter arrow might have have helped you hit him in the right place to start with.A different broadhead might have put more blood on the ground for you to push him far enough to recover him.It is all guess work after the shot has happened but with the weight you are already shooting more is not going to buy you anything.jmo
James i couldn't disagree more.
depending on how far the shot was the point of impact on my bow " 58 @ 29in." between a 600 hunting arrow and my 450 grain 3d arrows is almost nonexistant at 15 yards, at 10 yards they are close to the same it is not tuntil 20-25 do i see a noticeable difference. a lighter arrow would have made not difference. in the particular instance he would have hit the deer higher.
i tracked a deer that was hit in the brisket witht a Razorcap, not a small broadhead, and we tracked it for over a mile, i know that deer had tot bleed to death with the ammount of blood he was dropping, chasing after a wounded deer hoping it will bleed todeath or loose enough blood to stop running is a very poor idea. i know some people may have recovered an animal this is still a bad idea and could leave a mortally wounded deer to run for miles and never be found.
yes the added weight would help penetration alittle bit, i don't know what broadhead you were shooting but even if you got threw the shoulder you probably wouldn't have got the second lung with only 50 gr.
i have shot threw several shoulder blades with my setup and a 580 grain arrow and a grizzly. i shot a doe threw both shoulder blades and the spine " she ducked" last year a 3 yards. i think your problem was your broadhead and not the arrow weight.
Lash in my opinion your set up is perfect-increasing weight would likely not make the difference in this situation. Any of us can make a bad shot, especially at 30 yards.
IMHO the best weight arrow is the one of any reasonable weight,that you shoot well.If a heavier arrow will cause you to miss low when you miss judge the distance it is too heavy.
It's all good to say you will limit your shots to 15 yards so weight doesn't really matter.The question becomes,if you see a record buck at 30 yards will you try a shot, and how your chosen arrow weight will effect that shot.
I don't think you should shoot drinking straw arrows at animals.I also don't think you should depend on arrow weight to compensate for a bad shot.
BM22 I agree if you are only taking shots at 10 yards arrow weight does not matter a lot on impact but most shoot a little farther at times. :) At 20+ I am sure you see a difference in those two arrows you mentioned.
As far as pushing a deer it would depend on the hit and what the ground shows.I have recovered many deer that were brisket shot over the years by keeping the blood flowing untill I caught up.The hit and amount of damage would determine if it was a good idea or not as well as where you were hunting. Either way 50gns difference on an arrow that was already heavy would not have made a difference in this situation for the shooter.jmo
OK! If an ounce is 437.499 grains then adding 50 grains is adding 1/10 of an ounce. I'm not gonna hang all my hopes on the addition of 1/10 ounce.
Kinda like the difference between a 500 grain arrow (which some say is light) and a 700 grain arrow (which some say is heavy)... that's less than a half ounce folks.
Shot placement is always key to sucess and after that take a quarter out of your pocket and toss it in the air.
On a bad hit lady luck and your woodsmanship will make the difference.
But that's just my opinion.
Great Guys, I appreciate the advice and experience. I was shooting a grizzly on a steel adapter 200 grains. FOC about 15% Full length gold tip 5575, three 5-1/2" Feathers. Head could shave some hair off my arm. I wouldnt put it to my face though, I assume that is sharp, I have nives that can take all the hair off with extreme ease, but I cannot get the heads to do it. I was in a perfect situation I thought Sitting down behing a make shift blind out of some aspen bows. A 22" 2x2 comes sneaking in Heart pumps a gallon a second, cause I know I am going to get a shot, wind is Ideal...I am going to get a shot, He comes quatering toward me. OK cause brush is covering vitals, now he is almost broadside still brush a little too close... I see an opening ahead I begin to draw just as he stops... How did he hear me???? he pauses and looks slightly to my right. I anchor he's 25-29 paces string slides off fingers...perfect I see the arrow in slow motion Yellow feathers spinning perfect.... Oh yes it is right on the money. Buck drops 5" just enough to hit high and a little forward. He turns about face and i see 32 inches of my 33" arrow swatting flies as he bounds away. Damn,, I am thinking why. why did I not penetrate. why did he hear me draw, On my silent longbow??? Why should I have waited for him to start walking??? quatering away a little more....???? All I know is that was the closest I have been in 4 years of traditional and the funnest der hunt in 17 years with a compound. It was a success all but the "after the shot"
Sorry for the long story but I wanted to put you there. When I found my arrow I was somewhat relieved because I knew there was no arrow fragment left in him and he will live..
If I add aquarium tube to my arrow I am about 725 grains. I think a little too heavy for 55-57 lbs. maybe not, I hunt elk as well, is this too heavy, meaning is my current setup too light.
a little under 60 lbs. with a 600 to 650 grain arrow. I have a 65 lb bow at 28" but by the time I pull all 31" I am at about 70 lbs. I cant shoot it as well with terrible arrow flight mostly with my release.
Thanks for the opinions
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
OK! If an ounce is 437.499 grains then adding 50 grains is adding 1/10 of an ounce. I'm not gonna hang all my hopes on the addition of 1/10 ounce.
Kinda like the difference between a 500 grain arrow (which some say is light) and a 700 grain arrow (which some say is heavy)... that's less than a half ounce folks.
Shot placement is always key to sucess and after that take a quarter out of your pocket and toss it in the air.
On a bad hit lady luck and your woodsmanship will make the difference.
But that's just my opinion.
One word: Yep. :thumbsup:
You probably smacked the center of the scapula. Probably not much you could do to fix that specific situation, other than pass on the shot, but hindsight is 20/20.
You can improve your arrow penetration, but it may not be the best thing to do for your hunting style.
If you were to add weight, you should concentrate purely on FOC. I like well over 19%. But if you plan on taking these 25-30 yard shots, I probably wouldn't do anything with arrow weight. I suspect Utah landscape may a bit more demanding of longer shooting, especially on the ground. If you go real heavy with your arrow, you'll just start wounding more with low and high shots IMO.
You have a fine setup. You can always tweak a bit to see if you can improve arrow flight, but mostly I think you just have to chalk it up to experience and get back out there. Good Luck!
On a shoulder hit is it sometimes better to bounce off than just barely penetrate? With a raise in arrow weight on the same hit, I personally would rather see a bounce off than another inch or two of penetration. On my one shoulder hit the angle must have been just right, because the arrow took both sides out. I was not using the arrow weight you use and probably less power out of the bow. Just lucky I guess.
From what I understand efficiency starts dropping off at 12 grains per pound. Your set up is 10.52 with 600 grains at 57 lb. draw. I would consider this optimum. Since your arrows are flying well and broadheads are sharp this set-up is seemingly perfect.
Enter real world, is it possible that the deer jumped the string enough to move in a way that he absorbed the energy? If the arrow had been heavier, maybe even missing completely. 1 fps could have made the difference. You could drive yourself crazy with variables. Fact is, something we can't explain will probably happen again, it is not the equipments fault.
That being said I think it would be wrong to change a seemingly perfect set-up. 50 grains is not going to make a difference here.
Lash, as the buck was moving, he might have also been moving away from the arrow and that alone will cause poor penetration.
Your set up sounds good to most of us, however I have some doubt you can get a 15% FOC with a 200 grain head on a 33" arrow you might want to re-figure it.
This is a vary tough thing we do and Lot's and Lot's of variables, some times theres nothing we could of done
Would incresing arrow weight only help, meaning if I could inrease the arrow head but not the total arrow weight do I gain an advantage??
You may ask "how can you do that" I can pull out the poly rope I have in the shaft and add just to the head. I know that spine could be a factor so assuming it is not, does the increase in FOC help.
Also on a side note how essential is a bare shaft test? I can group well out to 30 yards and see great arrow flight consistantly, can i gain further accuracy by bare shafting?? I am of the mind set if it aint broke dont fix it. But i tend to tweak things untill they are broke. I would rather not open up pandoras box
I used some internet site to come up with the FOC i just put in the numbers, but I will check it. but it seems to yank out the rope and go heavier up front would be a good idea anyway, but then there is that spine thing. Do 5575 seem good without a bare shaft test? 7595 got to be too stiff though?
Lash, you might be right on your numbers, I just know it's harder to get good FOC with a longer shaft.
Read Doc. Ashbey report on extreme forward of center and the huge advantages that come with it.
I am shooting a 670 grain arrow with a 160 grain grizzly and 100 grain steel insert 27.5" long with 4x3" feathers with an 8" wrap my FOC is 20.43% out of a 63lb longbow
I will be working up a shaft with 25%+ ExtemeFOC like the doc recommends for max penetration
Sometimes weird things happen. I bet you caught him on the ridge in the scapula. I would chalk it up to bad luck. You could probably try that shot 50 more times and get 49 kills. The deer was the lucky one on this day.
Shoulder blades are not guaranteed to be passed through...no matter the head or arrow weight.
Its best to stay away from the shoulder, and not crowd it on whitetails. The biggest and most lethal area is behind the shoulder. The center of this area is well behind it.
I know, they can spin on ya and all bets are off, and if they do spin, its like a boxer rolling with a punch stealing a large percentage of your power.
Tuff break, I feel for ya.
YEah it stinks but sometimes bad luck is bad luck. I think Ashby himself said when you make an actual hunting loss, you do not get a chance to see what went wrong. (I know I butchered that quote so please dont shoot me Doc!)
Be sure your arrows fly well, which you probably already have done, and then keep rolling with what you got.
J
I was shooting some arrows in the basement yesterday. One of them missed the target went through my 1/2" plywood backstop, and stopped when it hit the concrete 10" behind the backstop.
When I pulled out my arrow the insert pushed into the shaft just a little, enough to start to split the shaft. That tells me there is plenty of momentum on that setup, the difference is I was 15 yards away. I dont know how much another 15 yards would make, But I will try to get a little closer next time. There is always next time. Thanks for the input
Lash
Sometimes your arrows are flying better at 30 yards than at 15...so you can't really bank on 'distance'. What little speed difference there may be could be made back up in straightness of flight. Also, trying to think about one or two yards intstead of shooting can be a distraction of focus for accuracy.
Arrows aren't bullets, and shoulder bone shots should never be advocated.
Most important is to learn to shoot with great accuracy....and take the right shots. That will go MUCH farther than two steps closer, some other head, or trying to turn your arrow into a 'magic bullet'.
You can't 'buy' a shoulder blade pass through...But passing through the ribs is free all day long.
Learn to accurately shoot your bow, and most all these other issues are mute. Accuracy Trumps Everything.
QuoteArrows aren't bullets, and shoulder bone shots should never be advocated.
Most important is to learn to shoot with great accuracy....and take the right shots. That will go MUCH farther than two steps closer, some other head, or trying to turn your arrow into a 'magic bullet'.
You can't 'buy' a shoulder blade pass through...But passing through the ribs is free all day long.
Learn to accurately shoot your bow, and most all these other issues are mute. Accuracy Trumps Everything.
Yep, preach on brother Terry, preach on! :thumbsup:
Good question, I am doing roughly the same thing, I shoot 60lbs and 565 gr. Zwickey delta,but have shot through more than one scapula but if ya hit the joint, there is no getting through that. I am considering going to 675 gr with the delta which would be going from about 9.5 gpp to 11.25 I know its better on the bow but not sure about penetration on deer/pigs and maybe a bear now and then... so I am glad ya asked that.. i also really dis agree with james on the lighter set up...
First deer I shot with a bow jumped the string and turned at the same time. I was shooting a compound (75# draw with 2219's), pretty heavy set up, the deer turned just enough that it hit the shoulder and the arrow slid down the ribs. The arrow then went in and took out the liver and guts. I got lucky.
The next year, I hit one in the hip joint and it blew through the opposite shoulder, you just never know what can happen. (same compound).
Hopefully I can get one with my recurve one of these days.
If your set-up is well tuned w/ your draw lenght and bow weight w/ that arro weight that thing should crush what ever it hits.That deer would be dead if you hit him where you discribed.
Something happened that the naked eye didn't pickup in the heat of the battle.30 yrds at an alert deer.Alot can happen.
As far as adding weight to your arro.Go for it if it gives you more confidence.As for making your setup penatrate better,should but w/ that long draw and a heavy arro,I'd say you're pretty well equipted.
I shot a 800+lbs bull elk while he was on a fast walk at 30yrds last season w/ a 65lbs @27'' / 560gr total weight w/ a Ace 2 blade.Went thru the scalpula and centered the rib under the blade and went between the ribs on the opposite side.
It must have been when he jumped the string the movement caused lack of energy. Well I feel more confident with my set up. I will practice and go after him this year, He'll be bigger