Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Wudstix on November 15, 2023, 04:17:12 PM
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Question: Is there any real difference between 11/32 and 23/64 shafts? I see there is a price difference.
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Other than 23/64 being @$1 per shaft less.
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Well, because 23/64 is larger diameter, that means it can be had in heavier physical and spine weights. The drawback is the larger diameter. A lip/change to larger diameter at the base of most 11/32 points where they meet the wood and the larger diameter shaft can cause a little more drag as it penetrates, which may or may not be enough to notice. And, because of the increased diameter, the center of the shaft sits a tad farther from the center of the bow, sometimes requiring a little more tuning finesse. And, to some, they just look and feel like logs compared to a smaller diameter shaft.
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Yeah, I usually bevel the front end behind the point/broadhead. 1/64" can be huge.
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After many decades of working on and using all manner of woodies with regards to wood type, diameter, weights, tapers, footings, inserts, FOC, and assorted other parameters of the wood itself, me and my bows are most happiest with 11/32" shafts, no tapers, footed self nocks and a tapered end for glue-ons. Oh yeah, feather fletchings only. I also try not to get anal about arrows, woodies in particular. They are the essence of traditional archery, and even if my bows are made with some manner of "glass" at least the arras are wood 'n' feathers 'n' steel, The key is in making and keeping them straight, and shooting only those that are consistently accurate with any particular bow. The rest are firewood, literally. I don't burn up many. Enjoy the tradition.
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My bows and I like a tail taper, Please don't hate me!
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I heard that more dense arrow materials act weaker in spine than less dense materials. I was always under the impression that spine was spine. Please educate me.
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I heard that more dense arrow materials act weaker in spine than less dense materials. I was always under the impression that spine was spine. Please educate me.
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There's "static spine" (spine meter) and "dynamic spine" (the real world of how a specific bow addresses any arrow spine). For me, it all starts and ends with the spine meter, based on raw shaft wood species and weight. These days, with my light holding weight bows of 40-45lbs, and lesser arrow length of 28", I try for lightweight raw shafts and points of 125-145 grains and a final arrow weight of 500 grains, +/- 5%. A heavier nock end might usually increase arrow spine, too. Lotsa variables. The proof is in the pudding (arrow flight).
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"I heard that more dense arrow materials act weaker in spine than less dense materials." That's true. If you take a dense shaft of a given spine and compare it to a less dense shaft of the same spine, the denser shaft will be physically heavier. The static spine, as measured on a spine tester is the same, but the heavier shaft will act weaker when shot because it takes more force to get the heavier arrow moving. Or stated another way, you need a little more static spine on a denser arrow to have it behave dynamically the same as a lighter arrow.
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So if I normally shot 70-75 or 75-80 with tapered POC, I would shot 80-85 with Douglas Fir?
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Is there any method to measure dynamic spine?
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Is there any method to measure dynamic spine?
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Measuring it dynamically is the most fun..just have to catch em with a bale.. :archer2:
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In my experience 23/64 and 11/32 diameter shafts of the same spine are interchangeable. I get the same results when bare shafting them and paper tuning them. I use Stu’s dynamic spine chart. The chart will adjust the estimated dynamic spine based on the shaft diameter you enter as a fraction (.344 for 11/32” and .359 for 23/64”). I find this to be fairly reliable as a good starting point. Surewood Shafts has a link to the spreadsheet if you don’t already have one. Here’s the link https://heilakka.com/stumiller/. One note, you need the average weight of each completed dozen. This can have an impact on dynamic spine with woodies often having forty or fifty grains of difference in the same spine groups.
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So would tapered shafts be lower spine Dynamically? Don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, what I shoot right now seems to work fine. I might just get a dozen tapered DF and see what happens.
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I’ve spoken to Carson of Surewood Shafts. He told me that the back taper doesn’t change the spine. Whatever spine you shoot in 11/32” should be the same in 23/64”. I know that arrow makers sometimes have to run 23/64” to get heavier spines. You should be fine ordering what spine you normally shoot.
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If I bump up head weight I may bump up spine weight one group and stay with the taper.
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A test spine range kit of shafts might be the best way to figure out what yer bow likes best.
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I'll talk to Carson and see if a tapered set of Hunter can be arranged, that shouldn't be too difficult.
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Carson e-mailed me concerning the difference in spine weight required from POC to DF. He said the majority of folks found little or no difference, but a few did find they needed more spine with DF. He was not sure what caused this, perhaps going from lightest weight POC to heaviest weight DF was the reason. I try a test set to see what the difference is.
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I haven't found any difference between the two. I shoot both POC and Douglas Fir in 23/64". The DF is typically heavier than POC shafts, and thus has a weaker dynamic spine when you start tuning it. I usually work all of that out in the length of the shafts and the point weight.
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All that matters to me is that the completed woodie is in the 500-520 grain weight range. Static spine really needs to be figured out beforehand, then a few arrows built and see if the bow is happy with what yer feeding it. So, best to get a shaft test kit and do yer homework before ordering out many dozens.
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I'd like to keep length constant, so I guess if needed a lighter broadhead.
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Whatever the bow likes would be the woodie build formula. A 145 grain point/head is best for me as that weight satisfies field, blunt, judo, and broadhead. Change the front or back do-dads and that changes both spine and FOC. It's nice if all arras are as consistent as possible.
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It sounds like if I keep raw arrow shaft weight close the dynamic spine difference would be closer, and the arrows should behave about the same.
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WUD you are correct about arrow weight and dynamic spine differences. Rob is also making some great points. I can tell from Rob’s posts that he has it figured out what he wants to shoot and then has tweaked that setup to match his bow. It also appears he likes consistency and repeatability in that setup. I would look through his posts and figure out exactly what you are looking for when it comes to total arrow weight, length, tip weight, etc. Then you can order a test kit or a dozen arrows in a spine. You should be able to take multiple spines and tune them to your setup. You will also have a vast difference in total arrow weight and length amongst different spines. I tinker and shoot different spines, total arrow weights, different amounts of foc, different broadheads, etc. I get many setups to shoot well out of the same bow. It’s just a matter of the end result you are looking for.
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James;
Most of my bows are close in bow weight. I have been able to get the same set of arrows, tapered and footed POC, to work well from my top three bows (63-66#) and 160-190 gr heads. Will be trying to get 250 gr heads to fly. I have been reading Rob's threads and others comments, so have a decent idea of where I'm headed. Have a test set requested for Christmas and will have comment about shaft weight added to order. If I run into issues there is a 60# recurve and two 70# bows that can be pressed into service.
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Sounds like you have it figured out.
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We'll see. Looks like raw tapered shaft @29" with nock and point tapered would be @500 grains.
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Spent some time this afternoon borrowing through my stockpile of wood shafts. Besides the tapered and footed POC, found some tapered Ash which I knew I had, some Red Balau (643 gr) raw shaft at 29 1/2", some Hemlock, and Eureka, low and behold there are 7 raw DF shafts that I must have taken in trade. 3 at 70-74#, and 4 at 75-77# more than enough to get started staining and sealing to fletch. They should be ready once I heal up enough to shoot.
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After decades of sampling different shaft woods, from different vendors, I now buy a specific shaft wood, from a specific vendor who has shown a measure of consistency to their offerings, and that helps me to make more consistent arrows without re-pioneering new and different wood.
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I have been shooting tapered, footed POC for years. Have decided to try some heavier shafts to help quiet my already quiet bows. Hemlock don't know where that came from!!! Red Balau is almost as heavy Raw (643 gr) as a finished Cedar hunting arrow. Great for close range hog hunting. Tapered Ash, as well.(529 gr) Tapered Douglas Fir is another heavy arrow material to try out. I find that arrows of similar mass weight fly pretty close to equal for me.
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After decades of sampling different shaft woods, from different vendors, I now buy a specific shaft wood, from a specific vendor who has shown a measure of consistency to their offerings, and that helps me to make more consistent arrows without re-pioneering new and different wood.
Would that be doug fir from Surewood Rob?
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After decades of sampling different shaft woods, from different vendors, I now buy a specific shaft wood, from a specific vendor who has shown a measure of consistency to their offerings, and that helps me to make more consistent arrows without re-pioneering new and different wood.
Would that be doug fir from Surewood Rob?
Yes.
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I've been extremely happy with the shafts from Carson.
I would like to try some sitka spruce from Trueshafts, but having a hard time finding the spines I want in 11/32".
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Carson has been very responsive and helpful via e-mail, I'm sure I'll be happy with DF shafts.
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