Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Pine on August 26, 2023, 02:43:56 PM
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OK, I'm going to stir the pot.
I keep reading articles and posts on some sites claiming there is no such thing as instinctive shooting.
They are claiming that a person is still gap shooting and won't admit it.
So I'm going to tell you a little history about myself.
I got into bow fishing very heavily around 40 + years ago and that transformed into hunting snapping turtles.
I made a discovery by chance of how to find them under the mud. I happened to see a turtle pull it's head back into a hole so I shot a few inches behind the hole and; contact. The arrow was just behind the head through the neck and I had it.
So now about instinctive shooting, I was turtle hunting in the middle of the night with lanterns, I not only couldn't see My arrow but had to account for refraction.
How could you shoot at a moments notice from a moving canoe with some sort of sighting system when you couldn't see the bow or arrow?
Buy the way, after that first time I saw that hole, I would see just the hole in the mud, shoot a couple inches downstream and bingo.
It was not 100% but I would say about 6 or 7 out of 10.
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Congrates on the turales...I just shoot the way I have for the last 60 years and let others decide for themselves what it is that I do, cuz I don't really care what they Wana call it :dunno:
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I agree. There truly is such a thing as instinctive shooting. Those who can’t do, just don’t understand or believe it can be done. No use arguing with them, however.
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Those people who write those articles have protractors in their pocket and schematics in their briefcase..... In other words they are basket weavers, and have no clue about instinctive anything.
In real life they would stay in camp with the women, aka betas.
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Shoot how you want, how you are comfortable, get as good at it is you can. But first.... Learn how to match the right arrow to the right bow, with the right string, with the right brace height, with the right nock placement, with a consistent anchor point and a consistent release, and practice often, shooting how you shoot. If another archer is a better shot, don't get jealous and claim he or she is cheating somehow, just practice more and get better. If there's an article telling you you're shooting wrong, turn the page. Don't try to shoot like somebody else, shoot like you.
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I have been charged by 3 hogs and instinctively put all 3 down. 2 with the same witnesses and in their tracts, and one that made it 20 yards. My odds are getting slim that I'll be able to do it again unscathed, but don't think I won't stand in the gap again. It's my nature, and it's totally instinctive.
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I want to say thanks to all the "old guards" that have texted, emailed and called me over my posting on this thread
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Anyone who has ever thrown darts need not ask about 'instinctive'. That's how it's done.
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I just shoot where I'm looking.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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I shoot instinctively, always have. The only ones who give me crap about it are gap shooters. I don't give them crap about how they shoot, it's kind of weird.
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Your eyes are useless if your mind is blind ! Just live and let live .
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I shoot instinctively, always have. The only ones who give me crap about it are gap shooters. I don't give them crap about how they shoot, it's kind of weird.
Shame on them then. We shouldn't belittle anyone for how they choose to enjoy archery.
It's because they cannot so they cannot conceive that it can be done. It's beyond their comprehension.
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As usual, some have totally missed the point of this thread.
And I will add, many years ago I taught beginning archers how to shoot and I always tried to get them to shoot full instinctive.
If that didn't work, then gap.
If that still doesn't work, then site pin.
I really don't care how anyone shoots even if it's with wheels and or X bow.
My point of this is, don't talk bad about something you obviously don't understand.
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For the record I'm in no way belittling people who gap shoot..... I am, however, belittling people that have no idea what instinctive shooting is and claim that it doesn't exist.
Mike Mecredy, I love ya bro, but we aren't going down that 'identify as' road here.
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"Those people who write those articles have protractors in their pocket and schematics in their briefcase..... In other words they are basket weavers, and have no clue about instinctive anything.
In real life they would stay in camp with the women, aka betas."
So true!
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
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Well said by all that know. :campfire:
Some people are totally ridiculous and psychotic.
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To those who say that instinctive shooting isn’t a thing, and we somehow use the arrow tip….. what if you wear bifocals and literally can’t see the arrow tip that close up?
I have shot at a birthday candle in complete darkness, as well as had someone hold a piece of paper just under my eye so I couldn’t see the arrow. If anything, I hit better that way. Their explanation also doesn’t agree with why I have shot rabbits and coyotes on the run at 40 yards. No one could ever gap shoot a hard running animal when they only have a second to do so. I’ve shot this way for over 60 years and never thought about gap shooting. I have a lot of respect for anyone who can gap shoot and still hit game. It always seemed to me it would mess you up as soon as you switched to broadheads from field points. I don’t see any difference when I do that, which seems to be another proof of true instinctive
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Here a quote from Mr. G Fed Asbell’s book and my thoughts
“Instinctive shooting is shooting a bow using only the abilities of eye, body coordination and instinctive memory.
Oversimplified, it is shooting an arrow where you are looking. It is looking at a target and shooting. The ability to look at something and shoot the arrow to that spot is using the principle of hand-eye coordination.”
Just like playing baseball, basketball, football, soccer, lacrosse you never aim the ball and there are always someone or something in your peripheral vision but your focus on where you want the ball to go you pay attention to them and sometimes you get the ball batted in your face. Just like the arrow that hits the branch you didn’t see because you were focusing on the deers vitals. That’s my two cents.
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Well thier is no gap shooting in throwing or shooting a baseball,basketball or football.You don't try and see the football,basketball or baseball when you throw or shoot it.When hitting a baseball your primary focus is on the ball.Not the bat.Some guys dont like those anolygies.
I always shot instinctive.Only way I have ever tried to shoot a bow.Even when I shot a compound in the 80s.I have always shot alot of arrows almost every day year round too stay sharp and be good at it.It has paid of in hairy moments while hunting more than once.I like it personally!
Shoot how you want to shoot a bow effectively whether its instinctive or otherwise.Some are just really good at instinctive shooting believe it or not.Some wont take a shine to it.Its all good.
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The arguments on this subject are never-ending (and often as amusing as they are absurd), but one way to factually view the 'it doesn't exist' topic is to look to the U.S. military and how they tend to view it.
In a nutshell, there are two practical ways to employ your weapon in the field, point shooting and sight shooting. One relies primarily on the sighting (aiming) with front and rear sighting devices, the other is less device-dependent and relies primarily on practiced feel (pointing). One is for close-range-no-time-to-waste-or-you're-probably-going-to-die' situations, the other is more tempered and calculated for times where precision is the main need and priority. Point vs. sight, the rapid practiced feel of pointing vs. the slower precision-based advantages of aiming. Both are real. Both work. Both EXIST. Each performs better under different circumstances.
Such it is with the instinctive (call it hunting) vs. aiming (call it target) archery venues. They are both 'real' but are not the same thing and they shouldn't be viewed (or arbitrarily defended as the 'best') unless the situation dictates that one actually makes more sense than the other. To do otherwise is just opinionated foo foo.
Maybe it's best we stop yelling at each other, recognize the facts, work with the realities and yes...get along. Just a thought.
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The arguments on this subject are never-ending (and often as amusing as they are absurd), but one way to factually view the 'it doesn't exist' topic is to look to the U.S. military and how they tend to view it.
In a nutshell, there are two practical ways to employ your weapon in the field, point shooting and sight shooting. One relies primarily on the sighting (aiming) with front and rear sighting devices, the other is less device-dependent and relies primarily on practiced feel (pointing). One is for close-range-no-time-to-waste-or-you're-probably-going-to-die' situations, the other is more tempered and calculated for times where precision is the main need and priority. Point vs. sight, the rapid practiced feel of pointing vs. the slower precision-based advantages of aiming. Both are real. Both work. Both EXIST. Each performs better under different circumstances.
Such it is with the instinctive (call it hunting) vs. aiming (call it target) archery venues. They are both 'real' but are not the same thing and they shouldn't be viewed (or arbitrarily defended as the 'best') unless the situation dictates that one actually makes more sense than the other. To do otherwise is just opinionated foo foo.
Maybe it's best we stop yelling at each other, recognize the facts, work with the realities and yes...get along. Just a thought.
Well said!
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Why is instinctive shooting any different than throwing a baseball or shooting a basketball? :coffee:
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Try shooting a hog in near darkness with gap shooting, or any other form of aiming.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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instinctive
adjective
UK /ɪnˈstɪŋk.tɪv/ US /ɪnˈstɪŋk.tɪv/
Add to word list
Instinctive behaviour or reactions are not thought about, planned, or developed by training:
From Cambridge dictionary, Webster is the same. Maybe they need to go back to school.
I just call it bare bow shooting.
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And some of us are able to do both :o
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I truely believe it's a hand / eye coordination that is simply done and not thought about. But if its pitch black with unknown yardage... all bets are off.
Here is a fun one to try.... We used to have a night shoot we would do at a 3D event that was incredibly difficult. There were 20 3D targets set up at unknow distances in very dense timber. with no moon, it was absolutely pitch black. You couldn't even see your hands in front of your face, much less your bow. There was no use of a flash light except on the trail walking from one target to the next. On the target was a glow stick... And they used different sized glow sticks too just to throw you off.... The distance ranged from 10 yards to 30 yards, and all you could take with you is 6 arrows...... Talk about a crap shoot! there were many guys that never got through the course without loosing all 6 arrows... It was a lot of fun. :biglaugh:
But after doing that, it certainly makes you think again about what the term instinctive shooting really is.... Even doing this in your back yard knowing the distance . If its pitch black and you cant see your bow or arrow at all .... You are shooting blind.... Give it a go some time... Kirk
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When I first started shooting trad bows, a friend and I used to shoot at night in my backyard. We would take a soccer ball and wrap it with duct tape and put four pieces of reflective tape about 1" squares on the ball. We would throw the ball and shoot it wherever it stopped rolling with flu-flus and judo points. Moonlight or whatever light from the neighbors (100 yards away) was just enough to "light up" the reflective tape. Lots of fun and fantastic practice. Also shot at a small piece of aluminum foil on the practice bales. Set a bale on its side about a foot in front of the bale with the foil and placed a candle in a mason jar behind it to make the foil shine.
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I've been running this site for over 20 years, if you think you are going to come in here and bs me you have lost your mind.
This does not include anyone on this thread, the person I addressed has been removed. I'm not playing kindergarten games.
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That guy didn't know his asset from 3rd base.:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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Haha Sam
I don't know what to really call my style of shooting/aiming when "I'm" in tune but sure got got some names when my arrows (or most likely me) are not!
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Now don't be bringing facts and common sense into a perfectly good bashing. :biglaugh:
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My advice isn't worth much, but I'll chime in.
I'm cross-eye dominant (right-handed, left-eye dominant), but am way too stubborn to shoot left-handed. I know I could make the switch, I know others have, I know it's only hard for a while... I know all of that, but I just don't want to. SO shooting right-handed with a left dominant eye means if I was going to aim, I would pretty much have to close my left (i.e. dominant) eye and use my right (non-dominant) eye to aim down the arrow. Tried it some in the beginning and didn't like it.
Shooting instinctive, with both eyes open, on the other hand, seems to work FOR ME. Not to say I'm a great shot or anything like that, but I've become proficient at it. It seems to be the best way FOR ME to keep both eyes open while being cross-eye dominant.
While I am going, let me say something about the analogy we often use to throwing a baseball or shooting a basketball. While I understand what's meant, I've always felt they fall a little short because, unlike throwing a ball, there is something else (a bow) between the shooter and the arrow. Those analogies of throwing baseballs and shooting basketballs would work better, I think, with something like throwing a spear.
What makes more sense to me is comparing instinctive shooting to what a good baseball coach does when he grabs a bat, tosses a ball in the air, and hits a perfect pop fly to the left fielder. And then hits a perfect grounder to second base. And then a line drive to the shortstop. And all the way around the field to every position—including over the fence when he wants to show off. That, in my mind, is closer to what is meant by instinctive shooting, with the bat representing the bow.
Again... I'm in no real position to chime in here. And I'm happy with people shooting however they want—I taught my son to gap shoot because I was tired of lost arrows. But saying that there's no such thing as instinctive is like claiming a baseball coach can't warm up his team without the help of something more than years of swinging a bat and knowing how to make the ball go where he wants it to go.
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My advice isn't worth much, but I'll chime in.
I'm cross-eye dominant (right-handed, left-eye dominant), but am way too stubborn to shoot left-handed. I know I could make the switch, I know others have, I know it's only hard for a while... I know all of that, but I just don't want to. SO shooting right-handed with a left dominant eye means if I was going to aim, I would pretty much have to close my left (i.e. dominant) eye and use my right (non-dominant) eye to aim down the arrow. Tried it some in the beginning and didn't like it.
Shooting instinctive, with both eyes open, on the other hand, seems to work FOR ME. Not to say I'm a great shot or anything like that, but I've become proficient at it. It seems to be the best way FOR ME to keep both eyes open while being cross-eye dominant.
While I am going, let me say something about the analogy we often use to throwing a baseball or shooting a basketball. While I understand what's meant, I've always felt they fall a little short because, unlike throwing a ball, there is something else (a bow) between the shooter and the arrow. Those analogies of throwing baseballs and shooting basketballs would work better, I think, with something like throwing a spear.
What makes more sense to me is comparing instinctive shooting to what a good baseball coach does when he grabs a bat, tosses a ball in the air, and hits a perfect pop fly to the left fielder. And then hits a perfect grounder to second base. And then a line drive to the shortstop. And all the way around the field to every position—including over the fence when he wants to show off. That, in my mind, is closer to what is meant by instinctive shooting, with the bat representing the bow.
Again... I'm in no real position to chime in here. And I'm happy with people shooting however they want—I taught my son to gap shoot because I was tired of lost arrows. But saying that there's no such thing as instinctive is like claiming a baseball coach can't warm up his team without the help of something more than years of swinging a bat and knowing how to make the ball go where he wants it to go.
Jimmy, I was faced with the same issue. I did a 'work-around' by closing my left eye and gapping. It worked pretty well and shot some nice tight groups, but all the while I was seeing in 2D and it kept bothering me that a deer in the big woods is not standing broadside at 20 yards waiting for you to gap off his hooves. So I decided to take the plunge and shoot instinctive, no gapping. Look at the target or McKenzie deer, stare a hole in it and let fly. At first my arrows kept hitting left. It was really frustrating but I kept at it every night for half an hour to 45 minutes. Took me most of the summer, but it finally took. I think it's maybe more common than some might think; especially with new shooters that can't seem to get the hang of it? Bottom line, I'm way happier shooting instinctively than I was gapping, even though my instinctive is still not as accurate as I shot gapping. Maybe it would work better if I was a tournament archer, but I'm a hunter. So that's that.
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And some of us are able to do both :o
My accuracy is a lot more pinpoint with a gap process. That said there are times the "instinctive" kicks in and works best.
Especially on a pig up close in very low light.
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When I bought G. Fred Asbell's book, Instinctive Shooting in 1988 I had been shooting a bow with training wheels without sights or arrow rest for at least a year. I never liked sights or sighting because it takes me too long to get everything lined up to make a shot. Even when duck hunting I never saw the front bead at the end of the barrel. I just looked and shot. I've only shot "instinctively" since.
I've hunted with only trad bows or selfbows mostly since. On a few occasions I don't remember the actual shot, I remember seeing the deer coming and picking a spot, putting tension on the string then seeing the arrow in the deer or in the ground. When shooting I rarely acknowledge my bow or arrow but concentrate on the spot where the arrow will go. I call it instinctive shooting because that's what G.Fred's book called it. That's good enough for me. I don't care how anyone else shoots as long as they shoot ethically.
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Great post Pat…. I too started out using Fred’s form learning to wing shoot. Comparing it to a shot gun wing shooting is a perfect example. But it wasn’t until later that I learned I was seriously short drawing my bow using that unique stance Fred used and my alignment was suffering as well as my consistency.
My next stage In form development came with learning a rotational draw and a good solid anchor point with good alignment. Terry’s shot clock technique was very helpful in getting my alignment consistent, and I studied and practiced a lot watching Jimmy Blackmon, and Arnie Moes shooting style.
Unfortunately , or fortunately, depending on perspective, I went down a lot of different rabbit holes with aiming techniques such as gap shooting and string walking before going back to instinctive shooting. It was good experience, but not what you would call instinctive at all.
But I learned that consistency in anchor point, and good alignment is the key to shooting instinctively. Bending at the waist and maintaining your form you can shoot consistently in any position, and let your subconscious mind take care of the aiming part. Pick a spot, grip it and rip it with no thought at all…great stuff! Experience is what makes a good instinctive archer….. Kirk
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Consistent experience! :thumbsup:
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Jimmy, I was faced with the same issue. I did a 'work-around' by closing my left eye and gapping. It worked pretty well and shot some nice tight groups, but all the while I was seeing in 2D and it kept bothering me that a deer in the big woods is not standing broadside at 20 yards waiting for you to gap off his hooves. So I decided to take the plunge and shoot instinctive, no gapping. Look at the target or McKenzie deer, stare a hole in it and let fly. At first my arrows kept hitting left. It was really frustrating but I kept at it every night for half an hour to 45 minutes. Took me most of the summer, but it finally took. I think it's maybe more common than some might think; especially with new shooters that can't seem to get the hang of it? Bottom line, I'm way happier shooting instinctively than I was gapping, even though my instinctive is still not as accurate as I shot gapping. Maybe it would work better if I was a tournament archer, but I'm a hunter. So that's that.
Kirk, The seeing in 2D thing is real. Bothered me too. And you’re right, it did (and still does) take a lot of work, but I too personally enjoy shooting with both eyes open and focused on the spot I want to hit. But I can also see how others would enjoy something different.
I’m more of Rick Welch style shooter than grip it and rip it. I shoot three under and hold for a second or two while focusing on my spot and giving my brain the time it needs to get my bow hand pointed where it needs to be to send the arrow where I want it to go. But that’s just what works for me. I think I’ve tried it all!
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It seems to me that many who insist the instinctive just doesn't exist are often just looking for a confrontation. Shoot the way you like. If you hit, fine. If not, practice some more. Me, I'm a believer.
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It's like shooting a slingshot or wrist rocket. Not complicated, but definitely needs a little practice. The ones that are good at it started hitting things they were aiming at sooner than the ones who didn't. :)
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From my experience the "Grip it and Rip it" doesn't equal Instinctive....
It's more like it equals reckless. :campfire: :biglaugh:
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Not sure what it’s called. Always thought it was like throwing a baseball. Focus on where I want it to go and throw/shoot.
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Jimmy, I was faced with the same issue. I did a 'work-around' by closing my left eye and gapping. It worked pretty well and shot some nice tight groups, but all the while I was seeing in 2D and it kept bothering me that a deer in the big woods is not standing broadside at 20 yards waiting for you to gap off his hooves. So I decided to take the plunge and shoot instinctive, no gapping. Look at the target or McKenzie deer, stare a hole in it and let fly. At first my arrows kept hitting left. It was really frustrating but I kept at it every night for half an hour to 45 minutes. Took me most of the summer, but it finally took. I think it's maybe more common than some might think; especially with new shooters that can't seem to get the hang of it? Bottom line, I'm way happier shooting instinctively than I was gapping, even though my instinctive is still not as accurate as I shot gapping. Maybe it would work better if I was a tournament archer, but I'm a hunter. So that's that.
Kirk, The seeing in 2D thing is real. Bothered me too. And you’re right, it did (and still does) take a lot of work, but I too personally enjoy shooting with both eyes open and focused on the spot I want to hit. But I can also see how others would enjoy something different.
I’m more of Rick Welch style shooter than grip it and rip it. I shoot three under and hold for a second or two while focusing on my spot and giving my brain the time it needs to get my bow hand pointed where it needs to be to send the arrow where I want it to go. But that’s just what works for me. I think I’ve tried it all!
Well you are not alone brother. I’m left eye dominant and shoot right handed myself , and it took me awhile to get comfortable with shooting with both eyes open. Shooting moving targets and wing shooting is a great way to do it too.
I think of all the training exercises I did that was the most helpful was shooting a blank bail for 30 minutes ever day with my eyes closed. Draw and hold for the count of three just concentrating on breathing. This helped me build my muscle memory working on alignment. Once you get to the point where your back muscles start feeling it more than your arms after a long work out, you know you are getting the right back tension.
It’s the same “consistent exercise” when focusing on the target that trains your subconscious mind to set the gap. You just don’t think about it anymore.
The only time that seems to back fire on me. Is shooting though tree branches. It’s very difficult to focus on your spot with a branch hanging across the path between you and your target, and if you look at it too closely, you end up shooting that branch every time. :biglaugh:
I used to shoot a lot of 3D courses years ago with my hunting buddies and we rarely shot at the stakes. We practiced shooting through the crotches of trees and over and under brush and branches a lot. The one that always got me was trying to shoot under and overhanging branch…. I mean even with a fairly flat shooting bow, there is an arch that arrow travels to the target. Learning your arrows trajectory helps make the go/no go call, or makes you kneel down before shooting to clear the offending branch.
I set up a couple of step ladders in my archery target lane so I could test my arrow trajectory accurately. It was actually kind of fun too. I used a piece of butcher paper I taped to the ladders crossing the shooting lane at different heights to determine what I could shoot over and what I could shoot under at 20-30 yards. Then I cut a hole in it about 6” around that I could see through to my target. If you focus on the target though the hole the arrow would still hit your spot , but it would pierce the butcher paper above the opening showing you your exact trajectory. We had a lot of fun playing with that….
Once you start getting good at hitting your spot, try hanging a ping pong ball off a piece of fishing line some time… unless you hit it exactly dead center you can’t punch a hole in it…. VERY challenging. :biglaugh:
I saw that at a 3D shoot in California one time. You put a dollar in the bucket for 3 arrows. First guy to punch a hole in the ping pong ball takes the pot. :biglaugh:
That bucket had a lot of dollar bills in it too….
Kirk
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Great input Kirk. Thanks! :campfire:
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Shooting through 'holes' were never a problem for me as it gave me tunnel vision sort of. The limbs never distracted me really, just made my focus more intense.
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I set up a couple of step ladders in my archery target lane so I could test my arrow trajectory accurately. It was actually kind of fun too. I used a piece of butcher paper I taped to the ladders crossing the shooting lane at different heights to determine what I could shoot over and what I could shoot under at 20-30 yards. Then I cut a hole in it about 6” around that I could see through to my target. If you focus on the target though the hole the arrow would still hit your spot , but it would pierce the butcher paper above the opening showing you your exact trajectory. We had a lot of fun playing with that….
Once you start getting good at hitting your spot, try hanging a ping pong ball off a piece of fishing line some time… unless you hit it exactly dead center you can’t punch a hole in it…. VERY challenging. :biglaugh:
I saw that at a 3D shoot in California one time. You put a dollar in the bucket for 3 arrows. First guy to punch a hole in the ping pong ball takes the pot. :biglaugh:
That bucket had a lot of dollar bills in it too….
Kirk
That's a great idea! I should really give it a try. Also the ping-pong ball. What distances were you shooting at, if you don't mind me asking?
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Post removed....
This is an instinctive shooting thread, not a gap shooting thread. Thx.