Please explain "hand shock". What is it by definition and what is it's cause. Thanks.
A varying degree of vibration in the hand to kick back. Bad handshock can feel like holding a 2x4 in one hand and smacking it hard with a hammer with the other. Or it can be severe kick back up the arm felt more in the elbow, neck and shoulder.
Oh yeah causes. Heavy limbs, (mass weight) bow design, brace height can effect its severity. Low arrow weight. Anything to have energy not transfered as efficiently to the arrow.
Bowdude,
Thanks very much for the quick replies.
Years ago when I shot recurves and compounds with a high wrist and open bow hand I had to wear a strap to hold the bow or it would jump forward out of my hand. I guess this is a form of hand shock. I've never experienced it shooting with a low firm grip that I'm using now on longbows..
It's basically energy that's not transferred to the arrow--it has to go somewhere, so it resonates down the limbs to the riser.
Some bows mask it well with a heavy riser, some folks are much more sensitive to it than others. I have a bit of arthritus in my bow arm elbow--some bows that tear up my elbow won't bother some some folks.
Another way to help reduce it is with a low stretch string material--my favorite being Dynaflight '97. I have a selfbow I can't shoot much at all with a dacron string, but a Dynaflight string calms it down considerably.
Chad
Use a bow that has it, and you will know it when ya feel it....
I have a Martin ML-10 that demonstrates it without any explination necessary.
When your eyes go crossed and a new filling falls out----that's handshock ! Sorry , couldn't resist. I had one that nearly done that.No names mentioned.
Quint.. I believe if you shot your longbows open hand you would lose it to jumping forward just like the others. That is a natural occurance from releaseing the arrow.
Shock , to me, is more from the limbs vibrating so that you can feel it, often because they are so tip heavy compared to the riser, or due to design concerns. Often because they are vibrating or hitting the end of their travel at differing times from each other Tiller being off will also accentuate the shock you feel. I believe that in almost all of the situations above, except off tiller, and maybe brace height, you can alleviate a lot of the shock by using heavier arrows, and sometimes by going to a stretchier (B50) string). This is because a heavier arrow will transfer energy to the arrow, away from the vibrating limbs. or something like that.
ChuckC
I had one of those, Flinttim. I can't blame anyone but myself because I made it. I wound up grinding the antler tip overlays waaaayyy down, narrowing the limbs some, and doing a little work on the grip area. Tamed it down to where I am able to shoot more than a dozen shots at one session. Learned a lot from that bow and the look on my cousin's face the first time he shot it was great. I had seriously thought about naming it Molly after some of the cantankerous mules I've been around.
Dennis
Yeah you kinda have to be the proverbial "Rocky" to shoot those things! "After a while it starts to sting Adrian."
If you think an MA/SA widow looks clunky it definitely has a look that suggests no handshock
Heavy riser, light limbs
My kodiak magnum is horrible!!! Any easy cure like sims products ???
try a hill long bow then you will see hand shock first hand first one I tryed I was shocked how rude a bow could be
I have several Hill bows that are as smooth as silk no shock at all. I can tell if a bow has shock because it hurts my elbow. My Hills are smooth and my elbow thanks me for it......stabow
PS- If your shooting a Hill bow and are experiencing hand shock your doing something wrong.......stabow
I second what stabow said. Shooting a recurve and longbow are worlds apart on grip. Just like all bows are different and have there own temperment. If having hand shock, ensure have slight bend in bow arm. When I usually get a new bow, I stand close to the target and shoot with different grips to get a feel for the bow. If you try different grips, arrows, anchor, release, and are still getting hand shock check tiller, might be problem with bow (not usual but have seen this on some selfbows).
Bending the arm allows for a shock absorber for sure. But.. the shock is still there. The fact you have to bend your arm proves it.
Looking thru a 2 yr old Tradbowhunter mag I found an article from ashbel talking about ways to quiten and dampen a bow. I am going to try using some sims stuff on my rig as well as taking it to a shop next week some time
I had a heavy hill made in the early eighties that was painful to shoot. The newer ones are much better shooters.
Trying one Bow and then telling everyone that that type of Bow has hand shock is plain wrong....
I have shot many Hill Bows and have not found any that were without some hand shock the last one I shot was shot by many at Dart shoot last Jan and the comment that came from many that shot it said the same thing that they never shot a hill style bow that was without hand shock :knothead:
hill like big arrows and the "shock" goes away
you are probably right I did not have any arrows heaver than 600gr with 700 to 800 gr arrows it probably would have had no hand shock :thumbsup:
I have found that the Hill bows made in the last 10 or 12 years shoot with acceptably low hand shock with standard cedar shafts. I do shoot with a bent bow arm, but that is part of the Hill form, I imagine if one shot with a locked out arm they would feel more than me, but that is not Hill form. I think perhaps the bowyer who ever made the heavy bow for me was not Craig Ekin. His bows have that cleaner look one would want in a Hill bow.
Don't blame the bow! The first time I shot a Hill I hated it. Thats because I didn't have a clue how to shoot it (lightbulb/newsflash...it ain't a recurve). Once you learn how to grip it right its a beautiful bow to shoot...yes its lively but also very smooth, accurate and dead quiet. I have two now (after stupidly selling a few others) and spend more time with my Hills than with my eight other bows...and that includes some of the more 'popular' makes (Shrews, Widows, Morrison, etc.).
Like the man said, if your Hill ain't shooting good for ya' then you ain't shooting it right.
TSP that is a good one, lively, I like that description. I to have several hill bows and agree that the suitcase grip serves you best and the heaviest arrow that still gives you decent trajectory to 30 yards is the way to go. My HH's are a lively bunch and fun too!
I shot a long bow this weekend (I won't say who's) at the Baltimore shoot and it nearly jarred my fillings out! It felt like I was holding a tuning fork that somebody it with a sledgehammer. Funny thing, after loosing and arrow the string was still vibrating about 5 seconds later!!! That is a lot of handshock and vibration. Way to much for me. Dang near made my hand numb. That's why I don't shoot many longbows.
Greg
All bows have hand shock. Until someone makes a bow that's 100% efficient, they always will.
Hand shock is the excess energy left in the bow limbs after the arrow clears the bow. It has no where to go so it pushes the bow forward/vibrates, etc. The heavier the bow riser, the more of that excess energy is absorbed. That's one reason why most recurves have less hand shock than most longbows. They're just physically heavier. Another is the limb design.
String type and arrow weight also influence hand shock as others have already pointed out. Heavy arrows absorb more of the bow's energy, thus decreasing hand shock. Fast flite strings, because they don't stretch as much as dacron, also reduce shock by dampening the limb vibrations more quickly, and in fact, reducing the modulation of the vibration. (Sorry Chuck, you have it backward re fast flite/dacron)
How tightly you grip the bow also influences perceived/felt hand shock. If you grip the bow tightly, you feel it a lot more than if you grip it lightly.
Finally, people have different sensitivities to/tolerance for hand shock. I've shot a lot of different bows in the past 50 years, and except for one very old Martin ML 18 longbow with very whippy tips, I've never found hand shock bothersome in any of them, including Hills and other straight longbows.
Good post Orion. I would just add that you can tune alot of handshock out of a bow. Every bow has a sweet spot. Brace height, nock point, string silencers, string material and diameter, are all factors that can effect hand shock.
But for me, handshock and a "lively" feeling bow are two different things. Handshock is the vibration... energy not transfered to the arrow that is not evenly spent. It is all about limb design. I detest heavy risered bows because they feel dead to me. The true sign of a great bow is a lightweight, streamline bow that is fast and lively with NO vibration.
Orion :thumbsup:
Also, a tightly gripped bow that has a blocky, angular shaped handle area with semi-rounded corners as opposed to a more rounded grip and throat can exaggerate or focus the vibration at those corners and make it more noticeable.
I think that those of us that have Hill style bows with the slightly bent bow arm, develop a push and shock absorber timing when we shoot. I have noticed that when compound shooters shoot my longbows, if they mange to get the shot off, the bow jumps to the right. When I shoot or when I see experienced Hill shooters most of the time the bow hand moves forward and maybe a little left. That is, the bow arm dispenses the left over energy. I have had only one bow that did not happen for me naturally.
Just as bows are not all the same they also don't invite the same shooting approach. Experienced shooters recognize that. You can enjoy your Hill or (fill in the blank) longbow just as much as your Morrison or (fill in the blank) recurve. You just need to accomodate the different characteristics of the bow. One size (or grip method, or degree of cant, or ...) doesn't fit all. Thats part of the fun.
Stumpthumper: I agree that a lot of the unpleasant excess energy can be reduced with good tuning, etc.
Regarding shooting with a bent bow arm. That's not just for Hill shooters. Most trad folks put some bend in their arm, regardless of what they're shooting. The straight, locked elbow bow arm (usually accompanied by a very upright stance) is a target style that isn't used much for hunting or hunting weight bows.
I have yet to shoot a Hill longbow (and I have owned dozens) that caused me any felt handshock. Smoothest shooting longbows I have owned and I have stopped looking at other brands.
One of the worst handshock longbows I have ever shot was supposed to be one the "latest and greatest" hybrids that are commanding big $$$ right now. Better test drive before you pay.
dan