Post by: JohnnyBa on April 02, 2023, 09:33:07 AM
This shows an archer shooting through a pumpkin, pretty close yardage, with two bows of different draw weights while using light/heavy arrows. The lighter bow is 50# and shooting a 530gn arrow while the other bow is stronger using a heavier arrow. Both had broadhead. The 45# Bear Kodiak, the lighter draw, did not get a pass through. Am I thinking this is a bad test or is a 45# bow not going to get the pass throughs on animals like numerous YouTubers show? This sort of throws a kink in my thinking that 45# was an ample hunting weight for deer, Turkey and maybe a pig.
Post by: kevsuperg on April 02, 2023, 09:59:26 AM
Post by: durp on April 02, 2023, 11:20:49 AM
Putting the arrow in the right spot, sharp broadheads and well tuned bows should be ur goal :campfire:
Post by: Terry Green on April 02, 2023, 12:26:36 PM
I learned that when I was 8 years old. :campfire:
Post by: Orion on April 02, 2023, 01:38:32 PM
Post by: Terry Green on April 02, 2023, 01:54:05 PM
However, I totally disagree with wider heads clogging.
I've been on way too many blood trails from group hunts and leases for over 20 years and have followed so many blood trails of mine and of other people. There's no way I'll ever be convinced of that.
This to the point that there will be no narrow 2 blades allowed at the Laredo Tusk Roundups next year. Way too many animals continuing to be lost with those narrow heads.
Post by: Mike Bolin on April 02, 2023, 05:17:04 PM
While appreciate the effort that the gentleman went to, there are some variables that have been mentioned before that need to be accounted for.
Due to shoulder issues, I have dropped my bow weight to 43# at my draw. I shoot a 500-grain arrow with a 3 blade VPA and have killed 3 deer with this set up. Pass throughs on all 3 and 2 were shot with the same arrow/broadhead.
Post by: Orion on April 02, 2023, 08:43:43 PM
Post by: Terry Green on April 03, 2023, 05:05:35 AM
"But, all other things equal, a wider head won't penetrate as well as a narrower one." I don't have problems penetrating animals, with multi blades or wide heads, and neither do those I that I've hunted with with such heads. Unless I peg the off shoulder/leg bone, which in that case the animal is dead in short order, pass throughs are a cinch. Now I have to admit, I never did measure that old adage of how much dirt I penetrated after the pass through. I have a hard time figuring out how so many have trouble penetrating animals, or are scared to death that they aren't.
"Never a free lunch"... on most hunts I've been on those that use narrow heads don't get lunch very often, but the coyotes do.
"Maximize one aspect of a broad head and lose something somewhere else."
Yes, that why I maximize my chances since 90% of the time animals take a step forward rather than backward. My broadhead choice maximizes my chances dramatically, as has an overwhelming number of hunters that make the same choice as I whice I experience 1st hand. Now what do I lose? The very slim chance of the animal stepping backward and hitting the ball joint. Which BTW a narrow 2 blade doesn't guarantee success on those hits either.
I have also found solidly that pass throughs on ground angles, rather than shots from an elevated position, are the true test for both a quick death and blood on the ground depending on the head.
My test are not from propped up dead animals, but living-breathing-bleeding animals that can move while the arrow is in route, either naturally or in fear, and are no doubt about to carry the mail wide open.
Shot placement seems to be an argument way too often that isn't really relevant a lot of the time. It's up to all of us to be the best shots we can be, and take high percentage shots. However, shot placement is NOT always up to us. The animals will dictate that very often. You shot can be dead on when you release, yet at that point you are not in control of the arrow anymore. Hence my head choice based on all of the above.
I also have some comments on the vented heads 'clogging', but want to know if there is a test available other than my own real life ones.
Great discussion guys....... :campfire:
Post by: JohnnyBa on April 03, 2023, 07:09:04 AM
Post by: Terry Green on April 03, 2023, 10:02:36 AM
Too funny Johnny!!!.... Start with a dozen pistachio muffins. :biglaugh:
Don't worry Johnny, its just a guy shooting a pumpkin in the dark. We have no idea in all the variables, hardly a test. From your arrow flight that I saw in person, you shouldn't have any problem killing a deer.
How's the accuracy going btw?
Post by: JohnnyBa on April 03, 2023, 10:13:59 AM
All is acceptable and getting a bit better. Just really working on being repeatable but the only thing I can for sure “repeat” is a bad shot! Love the new bow and just working on it all while watching vids and confusing myself the rest of the time.
Post by: Terry Green on April 03, 2023, 10:39:51 AM
Pine cone, bright leaf on the ground, new green sprig popping up, mushroom, etc...
Shoot on shot, go pick it up, and pick another target.
Stay after it!!!
Post by: Kyle85 on April 03, 2023, 10:56:41 AM
Post by: Orion on April 03, 2023, 11:28:36 AM
Regarding the vents getting clogged, I not aware of any solid tests that substantiate the idea that it reduces penetration, but I've seen first hand and in pictures, meat clinging to the vented areas on blades. How much that may impede penetration (or not) is anyone's guess, but it's another factor to consider.
Post by: Kirkll on April 03, 2023, 12:04:09 PM
Hey Terry,
With this statement being made, could you define a “Narrow two blade” head for us?
I purchased some single bevel broad-heads that are 3:1 that are an inch wide at the base primarily for pig hunting and elk hunting too. I’ve also hunted with the 3 blade woodsman that are 3:1 with good results.
Do you think these are too narrow? Lord knows you’ve killed more hogs than I have by a long shot….. I’m just curious…. Kirk
Post by: Terry Green on April 03, 2023, 12:21:57 PM
Here's my tests over the years for vented heads.....
As most that know me I've killed 90% of my animals since the days of the 'Old Blue' Zwickey Deltas have been with their 4 Blades, but I have taken several animals that are notable for not worrying about vented heads 'dragging'.....
Thickest shielded board I've ever killed - Wide Ace Super Express, wide and vented.
CLICK HERE FOR THICK SHIELD AND SHOT PLACEMENT INFO (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/hog1.wmv)
Largest Whitetail, 259 on the hoof Booner - Zephyr Sasquatch, wide and vented, busted 2 ribs going in and 1 going out.
Deer - Snuffer, wide and vented 3 blade.
Black Bear, shot 70ft up an oak through the sternum and out the top of the back on right side of spine - Silver Flame Custom XL, wide and vented.
2nd Largest deer I ever killed "Freak Buck" - Also, Silver Flame Custom XL
2000#+ American Bison buried to the fletch and numerous other large thick shielded hogs blown through - Wensel Woodsman, vented 3 blade.
Based on those animals and experiences, I wouldn't worry one iota about shooting vented heads.
Post by: Terry Green on April 03, 2023, 03:08:06 PM
Give me a bit....
Post by: Mike Bolin on April 03, 2023, 03:37:56 PM
Post by: Terry Green on April 03, 2023, 04:13:46 PM
Post by: Terry Green on April 03, 2023, 07:57:46 PM
On the LTR, and many other 'ground hunting' hunts for hogs and javelina produce non low angle exit wounds, therefore you need to use a wide or multi blade head to put more blood on the ground. People can argue all they want, but again, been seeing this pattern for over 20 years on well over 100 tracks, probably closer to over 200. 85% of the javies brought in on the 2 hunts earlier this year were done so with multi blades. About the same at the last 3 hunts as well.
One other thing that is constant also that you wont hear about but from others that have had the same experiences as me is that these ground level shots leave 3 times the blood clots inside the cavity than elevated shot due to not draining no matter the animal.
I don't think I ever got any pics of the blood clots left at the skinning pole from an average size ground shot javie but they are larger than what's left over from an average elevated deer shot.
I hope that makes sense. Not trying to deter you from what you want to use, or need to use, just some food for thought.
Post by: Cory Mattson on April 03, 2023, 09:00:35 PM
OK Kirk, you can shoot what ever head you want and choose one for the job at hand. I just have to live with myself and make sure that we recover every animal we can, and make sure that those coming the 2nd week have as good a chance at the 1st group. I'm not going to get into numbers, but its enough for me to make that decision.
On the LTR, and many other 'ground hunting' hunts for hogs and javelina produce non low angle exit wounds, therefore you need to use a wide or multi blade head to put more blood on the ground. People can argue all they want, but again, been seeing this pattern for over 20 years on well over 100 tracks, probably closer to over 200. 85% of the javies brought in on the 2 hunts earlier this year were done so with multi blades. About the same at the last 3 hunts as well.
One other thing that is constant also that you wont hear about but from others that have had the same experiences as me is that these ground level shots leave 3 times the blood clots inside the cavity than elevated shot due to not draining no matter the animal.
I don't think I ever got any pics of the blood clots left at the skinning pole from an average size ground shot javie but they are larger than what's left over from an average elevated deer shot.
I hope that makes sense. Not trying to deter you from what you want to use, or need to use, just some food for thought.
Interesting stuff
We had a many years stretch on Texas ranches
And now over three decades on GA and FL huge leases
Talking hogs specifically we’ve seen that for hunters who are hog hunting as a non resident fail to recover 50%. Plenty of guys the recovery rate is worse.
Small flat blades are commonly used. I think because the 3:1 design was promoted so much in the early days.
I got to the point on two of our projects; the SRBZ and our Saltwater marsh hogs I no longer allowed them. Sharks were the preferred flat blade we use and promote. We liked a Journeyman as second best. A 3 blade will work but almost nobody can get them sharp enough for us to allow. 4 blades easy to get sharp and deadly every day.
There are exceptions of course.
Shot placement is key and we shouldn’t have to mention it.
Our recovery is over 95% with years running sometimes 100%.
Do what we tell you and you go home with hogs.
I find the low recovery rates on hogs for bow hunters unacceptable.
Post by: Terry Green on April 04, 2023, 07:57:03 AM
et all...
I want to make sure that when I said ......
"I just have to live with myself and make sure that we recover every animal we can, and make sure that those coming the 2nd week have as good a chance at the 1st group." That this 2nd group also implied the 2nd group of non Tradgang hunters that showed up after us. The outfitter hunts a property 1 week and then a week off, so after our 2nd week, there will be another group after us. They also should have a great hunt, and the outfitter needs to be protected. I feel it's my duty running these hunts to do the best I can for everyone involved, including the animals.
So, that comment was not intended for anything that just happened on week one of this year, but something that's been going on for the last 5 years of LTR.
Oh, and Kirk.... 2 blades are going to need to be 1.25 wide minimum. And WWs are fine as they are multi blades. But they do need to be sharpened properly.... which throws this back to Cory....
Again Cory, correct on the 3 blades 'of old'. When you laid them on a counter you could see light underneath the blade as they were slightly concave. I used a belt sander to level them out....no worries. Now there are 3 blade heads out there that are a breeze to sharpen. Most of the kills on the LTRs are mostly VPAs. Simmons would be a great choice also along with Centaurs for 2 blades. Heck, the Z Delta 2 would be fabulous for javies all day long. Abowyer has several weights available in wider heads.....
I think those that "see what they've been missing" will be happy next year. :campfire:
Post by: Bamboozle on April 04, 2023, 08:24:43 AM
Post by: Jim Jackson on April 04, 2023, 09:02:21 AM
A few thing there...arrows don't use knock power to down game or take them out via pass through !!! While pass through are nice for tracking its not a measure of how fast or if an animal will die...blood loss kills!!
Huh? Don't take them out via pass through? Not a measure of how fast an animal will die? What's going on here?
The fastest way for an animal to die is to PASS TROUGH both lungs. It's also not 'blood loss' as much as it is oxygen loss. If you pass though both lungs you wont need blood to track. I'm glad to see threads like this straightening out some of the misnomers as like posted on that other thread. :banghead:
Post by: Kirkll on April 04, 2023, 09:26:29 AM
The only thing I’ve personally experienced on hogs shot with a single bevel 3:1 vs a 3 blade is that neither one of them penetrate very well unless you get behind that shoulder properly, and the 3 blade heads left a better blood trail. Never ceases to amaze me how quickly those things can move.
Those pigs can be pretty tough to kill at times.
I’ll never forget a shot I took at about 7 yards with 57# bow and hit a 200# boar broadside right dead in the shoulder blade as he walked in front of me……he stopped short the moment I released…… It literally took the boar right off his feet with the impact.
That boar rolled once , and was back on his feet instantly after snapping off the arrow, and never left a drop of blood…. Nothing but grease on the arrow, and he took the broad head with him.
I saw the same boar two days later walking around like nothing had happened…, Amazing…. Tough animals…. Kirk
Post by: Terry Green on April 04, 2023, 10:23:18 AM
BTW, you mentioned WWs and elk, what are your bow and arrow specs?
Post by: Terry Green on April 04, 2023, 12:25:32 PM
"The fastest way for an animal to die is to PASS TROUGH both lungs. It's also not 'blood loss' as much as it is oxygen loss. If you pass though both lungs you wont need blood to track."
Yes, absolutely. And, this brings me back to Simmons, Jerry Simmons. He stated that the reason he developed the Simmons concave style head is that when hog hunting "I want to let the air out of them right now." What's cool about those style of heads is they create a wider slash than the head is wide due to the outward push on the way through.
Post by: pdk25 on April 04, 2023, 09:46:49 PM
Don't lump all 45# bows together, either. Different draw lengths and bow styles makes a huge difference.
Skinny 2 blades penetrate the best, all things being equal, but it is the rare situation where that is the difference maker. Know your quarry. If you are worried about penetration on a javelina, and to a large extent deer, you may be tempted to address that issue at the expense of other issues. I child's bow will almost always get adequate penetration on these animals, but you will be more likely to recover them with better blood on the ground with a larger broadhead. I know, some people worry about hitting heavy bone, but the vast majority of time, if you do, your trajectory for the vitals is not good anyway.
Hogs are a different matter, but Robert Carter has killed a gazillian with lightweight bows. Yes, he doesn't use larger heads and is selective in his choice of shots. For me, this is one of the best arguments for using a slightly more energetic setup. Having the ability to penetrate a large boar with a decent size 3 blade of 4 blade and put enough blood on the ground for a quick blood trail, especially in the summer. With marginal poundage, you probably will want to go with a 2 blade, but I still wouldn't choose a skinny broadhead for penetration sake. Just my opinion. I have stuck quite a few.
And please, if you can only accurately shoot 45#, don't let if stop you from hunting pigs. It is the very rare pig that will give you problems with that poundage.
This is a hog that I killed with a 1950’s Paul Bunyan Recurve. 47# or so. The only hog that I short with a skinny 2 blade, due to the bow that I was using.
https://youtube.com/shorts/bpFw7o_iynM?feature=share
Post by: Terry Green on April 06, 2023, 07:37:48 AM
Too funny Patrick.
I love Johnny's quest to perfect what he's enjoying. I'm trying to keep the monsters at bay and not let them into his head. Hopefully I'll get back up there soon for another visit.
Post by: Terry Green on April 06, 2023, 08:04:17 AM
Both with Zwickey 4 Blades....
50#@28 Centaur blew threw both shoulder blades on a javie, James "Kodiak Fan" Veldhaus was with me on the recovery and skinning pole. This was the entry shoulder...
And I passed through this porker. PDK was with me on this one....
So yeah, don't let anything in the garden frighten ya!!!
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Post by: Terry Green on April 06, 2023, 09:56:13 AM
This is the 7th yard from the hog above....
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And this is the head I used last year to kill one of my javies.... This head is also vented and it like to have cut him in half and blew through like nobodies business...
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I wish everyone could hunt these little demons. They will teach you a lot and make you a better hunter in 5 days than it would take you 5 years otherwise.
Meet Psycho....
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Post by: Stringwacker on April 06, 2023, 01:10:15 PM
Regarding the video, it is what it is. Someone pointed out early on that pumpkins aren't deer. But...for the sake of argument IF pumpkins were deer, both pumpkins are dead and in the frying pan. There's nothing wrong with how the lighter bow/arrow performed as both bows shot the broadhead completely through. My son starting at age 11 shot 9 straight animals (one of these was a 125 pound pig) with his 33 pound Ben Pearson bow that he pulled 21" and with a two blade Eskimo light (1 1/16") before his first failed recovery
I would venture to guess that about as many, if not more, animals have been shot and recovered with broadheads that stayed within the body cavity than complete pass throughs with stickbows. I hunt historically in river basins where the timber tends to be more open. In this situation, I believe blood trails often are overrated as I can see them fall...or hear them 'thump' as they tip over of the ground. I have about 150 self-instances of reference to pull from.
Broadheads selection is very personal. Broadheads are often selected for tunability, bow poundage, looks, price, size, ease of sharpening and a million other reasons. My own choice with rare exception (turkeys!) has always been 1 1/8" two edge heads (usually Eskimo's, Razorheads, or Stingers). I've only killed about 10 hogs with these so my sample size is fairly small...but they worked with ease. My last boar was 245 pounds and I shot him with a 510 grain arrow, Bear Razorhead out of a 52 lb bow at 27" and I got a complete pass through at 14 yards. He went less than 50 yards.
Recovery is all about shot placement and how sharp your arrow is out of a well tuned setup. Bad shots lead to bad recoveries. Bigger broadheads can help in some instances; but at best oversized broadheads are more like a bandage...rather than a solution.
Of course your results may vary from my own. I just know what works for me.
Post by: PrimitivePete on April 06, 2023, 01:10:45 PM
Post by: Terry Green on April 06, 2023, 03:00:28 PM
OK, let's run with your logic.
If that is the case, and shot placement is so important and you somehow think animals never move, then ALL broadheads are a bandages, including yours, so we can all use field points now. Oh, and animals never move.
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
AND, with all the javies lost to narrow 2 blades the last 5 years in Laredo, those shooting them might as well have been shooting field points. :readit:
Post by: Stringwacker on April 06, 2023, 03:34:16 PM
That said, we all know that good shot placement and a sharp broadhead results in recovery. If your depending on large broadheads to overcome bad shot placement, all your doing is hoping for an anatomical miracle. It happens sometimes but I wouldn't go to the bank with that thought.
I've shot quite a few of those javelina myself. They die with those narrow two blades just like they did with the snuffers.
I'm sure the question might be to some, what's the harm in always using a large head...just in case? Nothing. If you have the energy and you shoot accurately with it. However, advocating large broadheads to those that don't have the energy creates a few problems itself. We all don't carry the same equipment to the field.
Post by: Terry Green on April 06, 2023, 03:37:35 PM
Not.
85% of all javies brought in were with multi blades. Over 30 have been lost with narrow 2 blades.
Pardon me now, I have to go throw away all my 30.06s and polish up my 22s. Gun season will be here before you know it.
Post by: F. Dobbs on April 06, 2023, 05:16:02 PM
Post by: JohnnyBa on April 06, 2023, 07:03:09 PM
Post by: Terry Green on April 06, 2023, 08:49:58 PM
Post by: Russell Southerland on April 06, 2023, 09:11:20 PM
In my experience, narrow 2 blades are inadequate and un ethical on normal game here stateside. If someone claims that animals don't move doesn't have enough experience to comment. 2nd most ridiculous statement I've heard here.
All my animals go down in sight. Must not be hunting out of sight of the barn. 3rd most ridiculous.
When was the 1st Tradgang javie hunt here? And how many Solana hunts were there?
Post by: pdk25 on April 07, 2023, 01:55:49 AM
I've been reading the thread enjoying the discussion...especially the broadhead thoughts. I'm a broadhead nut of sorts.
Regarding the video, it is what it is. Someone pointed out early on that pumpkins aren't deer. But...for the sake of argument IF pumpkins were deer, both pumpkins are dead and in the frying pan. There's nothing wrong with how the lighter bow/arrow performed as both bows shot the broadhead completely through. My son starting at age 11 shot 9 straight animals (one of these was a 125 pound pig) with his 33 pound Ben Pearson bow that he pulled 21" and with a two blade Eskimo light (1 1/16") before his first failed recovery
I would venture to guess that about as many, if not more, animals have been shot and recovered with broadheads that stayed within the body cavity than complete pass throughs with stickbows. I hunt historically in river basins where the timber tends to be more open. In this situation, I believe blood trails often are overrated as I can see them fall...or hear them 'thump' as they tip over of the ground. I have about 150 self-instances of reference to pull from.
Broadheads selection is very personal. Broadheads are often selected for tunability, bow poundage, looks, price, size, ease of sharpening and a million other reasons. My own choice with rare exception (turkeys!) has always been 1 1/8" two edge heads (usually Eskimo's, Razorheads, or Stingers). I've only killed about 10 hogs with these so my sample size is fairly small...but they worked with ease. My last boar was 245 pounds and I shot him with a 510 grain arrow, Bear Razorhead out of a 52 lb bow at 27" and I got a complete pass through at 14 yards. He went less than 50 yards.
Recovery is all about shot placement and how sharp your arrow is out of a well tuned setup. Bad shots lead to bad recoveries. Bigger broadheads can help in some instances; but at best oversized broadheads are more like a bandage...rather than a solution.
Of course your results may vary from my own. I just know what works for me.
It's all good. As long as you are happy with your setup and it works for you. I guess you could say that anything we use is a band-aid, lol. Pencil thin broadhead worried about penetration or arrow tune, wide broadhead worried about blood trail.
I will say a couple of things that I have mentioned in the past All double lung hits aren't equal, and all recoveries aren't equal. If you find yourself hunting in hot conditions, a shorter or faster bloodtrain can really make the difference between usable meat and waste. Don't get me started on hunting in an area with a high coyote density. I have killed around 230 hogs with a stickbow, and I can promise you that every little bit can help. You are right, though, in that I wouldn't advocate huge broadheads with a very low energy setup.
I doubt that may people would think that penetration is likely to be an issue on javelina, so I would be hard pressed to find a setup that wouldn't penetrate well with wider or multi blade broadheads. I like the idea of recovering them a little more quickly if possible, plus, those little critters don't sit still all of the time. I have essentially the same attitude on turkeys, but that is another matter.
In any case, no matter what one opts to use, as long as it is legal and allowed, I hope that more and more hunters get out there and put some animals on the ground and give us more data points to use in our debates.
Post by: Stringwacker on April 07, 2023, 05:46:48 AM
A couple of points here need to be addressed. I never said animals don't move. Terry mentioned that earlier saying that I must think animals don't move. Neither did I say all my animals my down within sight; though many are. Arrows kill cleanly when they have sharp broadheads and proper placement. Animals do move regardless of the equipment and that fact requires us to keep our shots close. I never found larger heads make that much of a difference in recovery. I stand by my statement that if your counting on big heads to make up for a bad hit that your placing your hopes on a anatomical miracle.
Final point...narrow broadheads were defined as having less than 1 1/4" in width. Really? For anyone to say that Stingers, Black Diamond Eskimo's or Razorheads are inadequate is a little odd as the last two probably have taken more animals than all the others combined. I truly don't think that a 1/6" of an inch in extra width on each blade makes makes one head the holy grail of lethality and the other one a dud.
Post by: smokin joe on April 07, 2023, 06:54:50 AM
But from now on I am going to refer to hog hunting as "plunkin punkins" -- as in "I'm going Punkin Plunkin and I hope I get a chance to plunk a punkin."
Post by: Bamboozle on April 07, 2023, 08:25:50 AM
I also have been paying attention to how many of those Laredo vets have been reading this. I have a question also, how many vets have declined to go next year due to the no narrow broadhead mandate?
Post by: Terry Green on April 07, 2023, 10:58:43 AM
Boozle, no. Most already know/knew about the skinny head issues, and the other's have found out and came back prepared and never looked back. This mandate is to any new hunters coming to save them the grief as well as me. I don't mind tracking for others and coming out looking like a porcupine, but I hate it when its all in vein from a dead end narrow 2 blade track which happens way more often than not.
Oh, and I've tracked up on numerous *anatomical miracles* let me tell you, and have plenty of witnesses to prove it. Those so called *miracles* aren't rare. Again, those that think shot placement is solely up to the shooter and those that think skinny heads are somehow going to save them with less damage and blood are very, very misguided.
I'm out, I have other things to attend to..... but I'll leave with this positive on skinny heads....
They have made me a MUCH better tracker over the years via bleak and non blood trail tracking. :campfire:
Post by: JohnnyBa on April 07, 2023, 04:37:06 PM
Johnny, what weight field tip are you using?
Depends on build but am staying at 200 grains up front for 450-500 grain arrows.
Post by: Terry Green on April 08, 2023, 12:46:58 PM
Post by: F. Dobbs on April 11, 2023, 01:41:53 PM