Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Vroomvroom on March 09, 2023, 05:16:27 PM
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Does anyone have two different spines tuned for the same bow? The reason I’m wondering is I tried tuning a .400 spine arrow with 50 gr insert and 125 gr heads. When I got to a length it seemed to fly good at 15 yards, the arrow if I remember was approx 30.5” from nock throat to end of insert. Quite long. I think I’m drawing only 26.5” approx at my 5’9” stature. I don’t mind a longer arrow. But I wondered if a shorter shaft would fly better is all. I thought of trying a .500 spine, just cut shorter. Has anyone got this going on? And if so, what is the approx length difference between these spines if tuned to fly from the same bow. Maybe I’d run out of shaft before it stiffened up. I don’t know.
Shooting martin savannnah, 55#@28”. I think I’m drawing 53 lbs at 26.5”.
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I’d like to note that, I’m currently out to sea, and cannot access my gear. I also wish I could see a side profile of my arrow length compared to my bow at full draw. I believe I measured them 30.5”. I have not shot these arrows fletched except one shot at 15 yards. So I can’t say how their flying at distance yet.
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What length are you wanting them?
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I’m not particular really. To be honest, I rather a little longer than most would like. Seems many like an inch or two pass the shelf. But an inch is too close to a broad head if I went for moose again. Maybe 500s would become too short before it tuned. I don’t know. Sitting here 500 miles from my gear, it seemed to me the arrows were quite a bit longer. But I’m sure I measured them after I could get it to bareshaft decent at 15 yards as being 30.5”. I’m also thinking it was 26.5” when my gf marked the arrow as I drew the bow. 4” to me doesn’t seem bad honestly. Many seem to start off my poundage and draw length with 500s from what I could understand. But I had a 400 in inch shorter that would go nock right each time, and an inch longer that went nock left. The 30.5 was Center target, and straight. Would a slighter shorter shaft, fly better? I don’t know. I really would like to shoot these a while to see. My issue is, I’ll get home and decide to get more shafts, but it will take 2 weeks to arrive , and I’ll be gone again for several weeks back to work. I end up waiting sometimes months if I don’t time things right
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It's not difficult to tune two different static spines for the same bow. You change the dynamic spine with point weight, arrow length, and even arrow diameter and bow side plate thickness. Given your draw length, the 400s, though they tune at a long length, are longer than you need. I've always found arrows longer than I need cumbersome. They create extra movement when removed from any quiver. On a bow quiver, the greater movement arc of the feathers as the bow is moved creates more potential game spooking movement. They're more likely to catch on brush and other stuff. Long story short, it''s quite likely that a 500 spine arrow cut closer to your draw length would tune nicely. Only way to know for sure is to try it.
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My draw is 27.5 to 28 depending on the bow, and all my arrows have been 29" BOP forever.
You might need a 600.
I have 400s, 500s, and 600s. All 30 inch that travel on hunts for people to try. You are welcome to 1 of each to cut down if you like. You
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Orion, I'm not following you. You are worried about length of arrows when the bow is moved? Are they longer than your bow? What did I miss?
I use a fletch cover, and I only move the arrows just enough for the broadhead to free. Not sure how an arrow an inch and a half longer would be more movement when I'm pulling it down the same distance.
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Not too concerned with longer shafts. Mostly of the best flight. Yes, I guess I could order half a dozen and try tuning one or two see what I come up with. Generally is there quite a bit difference between lengths when tuning these spines to the same poundage and tip weight? I do have weight tubes if I had to reduce insert weight but haven’t tried them yet.
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My set up is very similar to yours, 56@ 28” I draw 27ish. Last year I tuned 400’s and 500’s trying to find a happy medium of speed and arrow weight, what I have tuned: 500’s with standard insert and 160 gr. Point @ 29&1/4” and 400’s with 100 gr. Insert and 160 gr. Point @ 30”. Both tuned well, but I decided on the 500’s for the flatter trajectory and a touch more speed. Center shot may also be a factor when trying to tune multiple spines.
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Wow. That’s only 3/4” difference in length and about 85 gr difference in weight. That’s not much at all then…
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Terry. The OP said the length difference might be as much as 4 inches. When removing arrows from a back quiver, that's 4 more inches the archer's hand and the feathered end of the arrow must move before clearing the quiver. In a bow quiver, any movement of the bow causes the arrows to move with it. The 4-inch longer arrows just make that movement more pronounced. Since arrows in a bow quiver are attached nearer the front, the feathered end tend to move in an arcing fashion when the bow is moved. Longer arrows, bigger arc. Not talking big differences here, but noticeable differences. A fletch cover helps conceal the fletching, but it can't cover the extra movement. Too, one would be amazed how much more one needs to move the bow to avoid weeds and brush with a 4-inch longer arrow nocked on a final stalk. Because it's protruding so far, it's just more likely to catch on brush. All that being said, sure one can tune a longer arrow to a bow just as well as a shorter arrow. I just prefer to not have the arrows any longer than they need be.
SMG provides some good real world experience. With more point weight, he could probably use even shorter 500 arrows. I draw about 28 inches and on my 50# bow, I use skinny 500 shafts cut to 29 inches BOP with about 250 grains up front. Lots of ways to skin the cat. I just prefer no more length than necessary.
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I should also add that I use a different string for each setup, both 14 strand D-97, but with the 500’s I use full length beaver balls and with
The 400’s I just have a few strands of old bow string material that I use for silencers. It doesn’t sound like much, but I’ve found that silencers make a difference when it comes to tuning your setup.
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Orion, I was talking about a bow quiver just like you were. Not a back quiver. What arc are you talking about? I don't arc my bow quiver. How does it make it more pronounced? How do your arrows move more than your bow???? Are your arrows longer than you bow? Is this so called arc of the arrows greater than your bow arc? How do I even arc my arrows?
I can't figure out how a longer arrow in my bow quiver makes any difference. None at all.
If I shoot 29"s now, and move to 26"s will I kill more game due to arc movement?
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Perhaps arc is not the correct word. Just more pronounced movement. To use an analogy, consider the front of the quiver as the point on a compass used to draw a circle. If you spread the compass arms 26 inches, the circle it draws will be much smaller than if you spread the arms 32 inches. Any part of that circle is an arc. So with the same amount of bow movement, for example, the arc of the bigger circle will be larger.
Or consider a fishing rod. The tip of an 8 foot rod will move a lot farther than the tip of a 6-foot rod when moved the same amount at the base/handle. All I was trying to point out is that the longer the arrows are, the more they exaggerate bow movement, whether the movement is in an arc, up/down, backward/forward, etc. Yes, the bow tip will usually extend beyond the arrows regardless of how long they are, but a bow tip is usually dark colored and thin whereas a bow quiver usually contains 4-6 or more feathered shafts spaced apart that make a much more visible package, even with a camo cover.
Now, will that extra movement cost the hunter shots at game. Difficult to say. It's just one of several reasons that I don't use arrows any longer than they need to be. I decide the arrow length I want and tune the arrow to the bow, mostly with front end weight. Others may pick a spine and do most of their tuning with arrow length. Two ways at arriving at the same objective. One won't necessarily fly better than the other. The OP was asking for opinions on longer 400s vs shorter 500s. That's my opinion.
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I have a similiar issue due to inserts. I have some GT Ultalights in .500 spine that are too light in weight. I used the GT 50 grain long insert and 125 tip. The long insert caused the arrow to act as if it were shorter, i.e. stiffer. It exhibits dynamic spine of my .400 GT Trads with 125 tips.
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Orion, I'm going to bow out. After 42 years of bowhunting I've never heard of arching, nor do I go through the woods twirling my bow around like a batton in a marching band. I'm at a total loss.
Take care sir. :campfire:
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I have a similar draw length to Terry's, 27.5-28”, and all but one of my bow and arrow combinations are cut to 29”, the same as his. I have one bow and arrow that tunes best to a 29.5” arrow, and I’m happy with that. Once I had to cut an arrow back to 28.25” to get it to work, and it flew beautifully, so I made up a dozen of them. Big mistake; although they tuned well, I never liked shooting them, so it turned out to be a waste of time and money to make that dozen arrows.
There is nothing wrong with a 32” arrow, and probably nothing wrong with a 27” arrow (although I have my doubts about that), provided they are well tuned and you like shooting them.
So much depends on how a bow and an arrow feel to you. Learning to shoot a bow proficiently involves becoming aware of many subtleties that the non-archer would never have to be concerned with, and some of these subtleties are communicated to us by feelings.
So experiment with different lengths and weights until you find some combination you like. Just don't make the same mistake I did and make a dozen of them until you're SURE you like them. Something that would be difficult to do while you're on a boat!
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Yes Dave, and when learning to shoot, you need all the constance you can get. I. E. One arrow length is better than jumping around wirhmultiple lengths.
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Yeah I never bothered . Ill try these lengths once home. I have a dozen of aluminum I had 20 years ago I might pull out of the attic. See if I can tune them to the older roots recurve I have. Ususally do the guiding, not the hunting , as I’m an outfitter. Most of the season is taken up guiding non residence.
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I understand what your saying Orion. I would say try a 500 cut shorter and see if it works. If it dose it will be faster because of the weight and the FOC % will be more which is good thing. Over all it would be handier in the woods. I have both 500 and 600 working for my bows. Once you get them both working you will find you will shoot one or the other better. Center shot is one of the most overlooked parts of arrow tuning.
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You know, I have the weights to attach to the end of inserts. But they’re a snug fit inside the arrow. I’d imagine they’d stiffen part of the shaft too the more you attach to the end.
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You know, I have the weights to attach to the end of inserts. But they’re a snug fit inside the arrow. I’d imagine they’d stiffen part of the shaft too the more you attach to the end.
That's correct. Adding weights inside the shaft has two offsetting effects: the extra weight weakens the spine, while eliminating flex from the part of the shaft the weights are glued in stiffens the spine. I've found that after putting a 50 grain weight behind the insert, any additional weights behind the 50 grain weight have a negligible effect on spine, while of course increasing overall arrow weight. To get the maximum effect on spine, increase point weight in front of the insert. OTOH, if your arrow is already tuned, and you just want it to be heavier for hunting purposes, put the weight behind any existing weights you have already put behind the insert.
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I might insert some weight tubes on my older, lighter arrows.
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Hmmm. I don't understand either on the back quiver. If my back quiver is 24 inch deep, and I shorten my my arrows from 31 to 28 inches its going to created MORE movement for me to retrieve them. Clueless to the bow quiver also. Maybe you and ss can explaining.
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Thanks Skates. I was reading this this mornin and found myself needing more coffee. Orion a nd Ss clarify please. Geezzz what a jiggsaw puzzle.
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Total confusing. Please explain to the animals I've killed Orion and SS.
https://youtu.be/mdgqLEfk3MM
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Skates: Read my posts more carefully. The op's original question was, given that he had 400s tuned to his bow at almost full length, he was wondering if he could tune lighter spined 500s to his bow and perhaps shorten his arrow length as well.
My response was, yes, he could and suggested that he give it a try. I added that I preferred my arrows no longer than they need be because "longer" arrows create more movement than shorter arrows, when they're in a bow quiver or when retrieving them from a back quiver. I guess folks are having trouble following my examples of how longer arrows create more movement.
For example, "If my back quiver is 24 inch deep, and I shorten my my arrows from 31 to 28 inches its going to created MORE movement for me to retrieve them." Nope. That's not what i said. Just the opposite, in fact. I said longer arrows, not shorter arrows, create more movement.
This is what I said.
First post. "Given your draw length, the 400s, though they tune at a long length, are longer than you need. I've always found arrows longer than I need cumbersome. They create extra movement when removed from any quiver."
Second post. "The OP said the length difference might be as much as 4 inches (between what he is shooting now and the shorter length he could possibly attain with 500 spine arrows). When removing arrows from a back quiver, that's 4 more (more, not less) inches the archer's hand and the feathered end of the arrow must move before clearing the quiver. " Parenthetical statements added for clarity.
And arrow length really has nothing to do with killing animals. Shoot the length arrows you want (at targets or animals). I was just offering my reasons for preferring my arrows to be no longer than necessary.
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I’m surprised nobody has brought up the advantage of a longer arrow providing a smaller gap and closer point on aiming.
For someone with a shorter draw length this can make a big difference if you are a gap shooter. Indoor target archers , and competition 3D archers might prefer a longer shaft just for that reason too.
The only difference in how they shoot if they are tuned properly will be trajectory from having two different weight arrows. At a typical hunting distance of 15-20 yards you won’t see a huge difference. A few inches at most…. At longer distances is where you’ll have a noticeable difference.
.02 cents…. Kirk.