Post by: Kirkll on September 28, 2022, 01:57:50 PM
But.... When i can pick up a long bow i've never shot before and place a group of touching arrows on the first 3 shots.... I mean.... I can help but love this thing.
Here is a 62" Flatliner i'm just spraying the finish on that just amazed me how well it shoots.
Post by: Buggs on September 28, 2022, 02:23:45 PM
I'm surprised at the small amount of limb length that appears to be doing all the work. That typical?
Post by: Kirkll on September 28, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 28, 2022, 02:50:11 PM
Post by: Buggs on September 28, 2022, 03:47:08 PM
Better than what?
Post by: mmattockx on September 28, 2022, 04:33:29 PM
I don't understand the better string angle?
Better than what?
Better than the same bow without a static tip. Fibreglass is so much stronger than wood that it lends itself to keeping the working limb very short. This tends to help performance by limiting limb vibration and maximizing the potential of the FG lams.
You could never do that same bend on an all wood bow, the limb would fail from massive set or the back would let go.
Mark
Post by: Buggs on September 28, 2022, 05:07:20 PM
You guys must be referring to the angle of the string to the limb, not the string to arrow?
Or should I have said the angle the string is bent at?
Post by: Longcruise on September 28, 2022, 09:30:39 PM
Post by: mmattockx on September 28, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
So you saying that two bows with the same limb and string length, pulled to the same draw length, will have different string angles depending on if it has a static tip or not?
You guys must be referring to the angle of the string to the limb, not the string to arrow?
Or should I have said the angle the string is bent at?
Yes, the string angle as measured between the string and the limb near the tip. Although the string angle from the string to the arrow would be slightly different between those two bow designs as well, but not by a huge difference. A different tiller always puts the limb tip in a different spot at full draw.
Nice looking bow, Kirk.
Mark
Post by: Mad Max on September 29, 2022, 08:16:00 AM
Post by: Buggs on September 29, 2022, 08:19:32 AM
The rest of the limb will have to bend enough to achieve that draw length and that angle should be fixed by string and total lever length?
Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on September 29, 2022, 08:24:34 AM
Not huge changes mind you. But still some change.
Post by: Buggs on September 29, 2022, 09:10:08 AM
Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on September 29, 2022, 09:42:03 AM
Post by: Kirkll on September 29, 2022, 09:42:24 AM
So you saying that two bows with the same limb and string length, pulled to the same draw length, will have different string angles depending on if it has a static tip or not?
You guys must be referring to the angle of the string to the limb, not the string to arrow?
Or should I have said the angle the string is bent at?
The string angle I’m referring to is full draw at the fingers. On long bows that bend the full length of the limb from the riser threw the tips , the bow tip to tip distance is shorter and the string angle more severe. A static tip maintains the tip to tip length of the bow at full draw much better with a flatter string angle.
I have a 60” static tip recurve that has a much flatter string angle than. 70” Hill style bow….
But….. I said nothing about string length…. We could get all side tracked into limb design and pre load settings with string length adjustment, but I’m trying to avoid going down any rabbit holes….. a 62” bow with a 60” string is going to have a different string angle than one with a 59” on the same bow.
But things change drastically as you start moving the working limbs out further and stiffening the tips, you can have different string lengths and string angles completely on same length bows that have a full limb bend……. Kirk
Post by: Kirkll on September 29, 2022, 09:49:16 AM
So if you move the fulcrum out toward the tip, how do you get the limb to bend enough to reach the specified draw length?
That is the beauty of it Buggs… the limb doesn’t bend as much with the longer string, and it stores all the energy in a shorter portion on the limb. You end up with less limb travel, and a better string angle at full draw.
Kirk
Post by: Buggs on September 29, 2022, 11:02:08 AM
But….. I said nothing about string length…. We could get all side tracked into limb design and pre load settings with string length adjustment, but I’m trying to avoid going down any rabbit holes….. a 62” bow with a 60” string is going to have a different string angle than one with a 59” on the same bow.
"That is the beauty of it Buggs… the limb doesn’t bend as much with the longer string, and it stores all the energy in a shorter portion on the limb. You end up with less limb travel, and a better string angle at full draw."
So you are changing one of the "fixed" parameters to get a different string angle. Specifically the string length.
Otherwise two bows with the same length limbs and strings, could not have different string angles at the string fulcrum, no matter where they bend, as long as they are being drawn to the same distance.
Jeez, that was like pulling teeth to get the full picture :tongue:
Post by: mmattockx on September 29, 2022, 11:47:42 AM
Otherwise two bows with the same length limbs and strings, could not have different string angles at the string fulcrum, no matter where they bend, as long as they are being drawn to the same distance.
I don't think that is correct, but I have never worried about the string length so I can't say for sure.
Mark
Post by: Buggs on September 29, 2022, 12:00:35 PM
My apologies for dragging you guys thru my brain fog. I should have done a mock up from the get go :knothead:
Post by: mmattockx on September 29, 2022, 03:38:15 PM
No its not correct. I had to go do a mock up to see what was happening. The farther out on the limb that the fulcrum is placed, the more acute the angle is at the string nocking point.
My apologies for dragging you guys thru my brain fog. I should have done a mock up from the get go :knothead:
No worries, it's all a learning/experimental experience.
Mark
Post by: Kirkll on September 29, 2022, 04:08:36 PM
No its not correct. I had to go do a mock up to see what was happening. The farther out on the limb that the fulcrum is placed, the more acute the angle is at the string nocking point.
My apologies for dragging you guys thru my brain fog. I should have done a mock up from the get go :knothead:
No worries bro.... it's hard to wrap your head around these things sometimes until you actually play with it.
Otherwise two bows with the same length limbs and strings, could not have different string angles at the string fulcrum, no matter where they bend, as long as they are being drawn to the same distance.
I don't think that is correct, but I have never worried about the string length so I can't say for sure.
Mark
Mark,
This is something you should definitely play with.... Limb pad angles and string length changes can do unbelievable things to your limbs performance. If you want to get into measuring string tension with an in line scale to determine the best pre load setting for the particular limb design, you can go down that rabbit hole if you like. It's interesting... But you can accomplish the same thing just trying different string lengths, watching your limbs bend on the tiller tree, then adjusting the location of the deepest part of the grip to a user friendly brace height.
That's the thing you need to do first when playing with string lengths is forget about actual brace height. Concentrate on getting the most out of your limbs first, THEN measure from the string back to your riser block and mark it 7" or 7.5". Working with an adjustable riser makes prototyping limbs a lot easier.
Kirk
Post by: Jeff tech on September 29, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Post by: Buggs on September 29, 2022, 07:50:47 PM
"There is just something about a Shlongbow"
Post by: Kirkll on September 29, 2022, 10:27:16 PM
Short- Longbow?? Lets see......... that would make it a Shlongbow
"There is just something about a Shlongbow"
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: I about spit coffee all over my lap top reading that bro. A "Shlong Bow"?
62 in 3-piece longbow 🤣 really.? Just giving you a s*** bud. A real longbow is at least 66 to 68 and 70. Looking good though. A short longbow hmmm. Here is one I'm trying to finish up someday. It's all in. It's final coats of epoxy sealer. It is 68-in Looooongbow. JF
Actually i tried like hell to get the owner to go to 64", but its his bow.....He wanted 62"...
What type of wood is your riser? Is that B&W ebony? Or is it Marble wood? That's beautiful! :thumbsup:
Post by: Jeff tech on September 30, 2022, 05:13:52 AM
Post by: Buggs on September 30, 2022, 09:48:47 AM
Post by: mmattockx on September 30, 2022, 10:40:10 AM
But you can accomplish the same thing just trying different string lengths, watching your limbs bend on the tiller tree, then adjusting the location of the deepest part of the grip to a user friendly brace height.
Kirk, thanks for the ideas.
I'm making all wood bows for the time being and tinkering with laminations and Perry reflex type preload in the glue ups, but I will try different string lengths on the tillering tree on my next bow and see what that does to the bend. Being all wood, nothing is adjustable on my bows, but I can always learn a few things and then incorporate the lessons learned on the next bow.
Mark
Post by: Kirkll on September 30, 2022, 12:20:59 PM
But you can accomplish the same thing just trying different string lengths, watching your limbs bend on the tiller tree, then adjusting the location of the deepest part of the grip to a user friendly brace height.
Kirk, thanks for the ideas.
I'm making all wood bows for the time being and tinkering with laminations and Perry reflex type preload in the glue ups, but I will try different string lengths on the tillering tree on my next bow and see what that does to the bend. Being all wood, nothing is adjustable on my bows, but I can always learn a few things and then incorporate the lessons learned on the next bow.
Mark
I have known a few guys that were really into building board bows, and while it's true you can only do so much once you have the bow on the tiller tree, there are many adjustments that can be made laying up each bow.
Different types of materials used, taper rate, and power wedge locations are some of them. using tip wedges or even reverse tapered lams is another. The geometric shape of your form can sometimes be altered with inserts rather than building new forms too.....
Everything is adjustable if you feel like exploring and tinkering with things. Some of my biggest discoveries came from an oooops during the lay up process, and efforts made to save a set of limbs. Deeper core narrow limbs are good examples. Have fun... That's what counts. Kirk
Post by: Kirkll on September 30, 2022, 02:11:59 PM
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Photo album photos
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JYFQEUyrVrwEDUJZ9 Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on September 30, 2022, 02:44:38 PM
Post by: garyschuler on September 30, 2022, 04:19:48 PM
Post by: mmattockx on September 30, 2022, 09:59:10 PM
Different types of materials used, taper rate, and power wedge locations are some of them. using tip wedges or even reverse tapered lams is another. The geometric shape of your form can sometimes be altered with inserts rather than building new forms too.....
You've got that right, the combinations are near infinite even without adding fibreglass lams into the equation. Good thing I'm not in a rush and it's all just a big experiment.
Mark
Post by: Buggs on September 30, 2022, 10:11:58 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on October 01, 2022, 07:44:24 AM
Post by: Bryan Adolphe on October 01, 2022, 09:20:29 AM
Post by: Kirkll on October 01, 2022, 11:08:59 AM
Nice bow Kirk :thumbsup: I like the riser to limb buttressing, not seen that before. Cool design.
When I first started experimenting with flush limb pockets like these, I milled the pocket into the riser rather than doing matching overlays to match the limb butts. Unless the riser limb pocket was milled from G-10, I had issues with it cracking at the deepest corner of the pocket. Then I tried overlays on the riser to match the limbs with the same results over time. I had repair several of them using screws and epoxy, then doing overlays to hide the screws.
I finally just started using stainless steel screws on each end of those riser overlays when I glued them up the first time, and haven’t had an issue since.
Here is a photo of a different riser.
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Here is the build album on that one.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tNyJpp8jQCtYU8ueA
Kirk
Post by: Bryan Adolphe on October 01, 2022, 01:18:11 PM
Post by: Mad Max on October 01, 2022, 04:52:12 PM
I bet that would pop off easy without those screws :thumbsup:
Here is a bow I made years ago that looks like a selfbow, the stack is glued on top of the riser with fiberglass pins and the snake skins hide the lams
(https://i.imgur.com/hKKM8EW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HHaOKe5.jpg)