Post by: Mad Max on September 26, 2022, 09:27:59 AM
I've had mixed information on fiberglass overlays.
Post by: Pat B on September 26, 2022, 09:42:40 AM
Post by: Kirkll on September 26, 2022, 09:44:37 AM
The antler material is strong enough, and wears like iron, but…. Trying to get it to stay on the tips without popping off is tough to do in my experience. The porous nature of the material makes it hard to glue even when sealing it good, and it doesn’t bend easily without heat. And….trying to shape it perfectly to fit your limb tip is tricky. I rarely use antler material any more after replacing too many tips.
Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on September 26, 2022, 10:11:00 AM
Any type of linen phenolic works great, but micarta, g-10, and canvas phenolic works well too. The horn materials should hold up to fast flight string wear too, but I would avoid antler material.
The antler material is strong enough, and wears like iron, but…. Trying to get it to stay on the tips without popping off is tough to do in my experience. The porous nature of the material makes it hard to glue even when sealing it good, and it doesn’t bend easily without heat. And….trying to shape it perfectly to fit your limb tip is tricky. I rarely use antler material any more after replacing too many tips.
Kirk
I don’t like the layer lines in phenolic, is all of it like that? And I’ve never used macarta before, does it have the layer lines?
Post by: Kirkll on September 26, 2022, 10:42:31 AM
I personally like the different colored layers. It gives you a visual reference for centering and depth when shaping the overlays into a tear drop shape.
Look at all these different combos here. All of these have phenolic in them.
https://goo.gl/photos/pSoJGRPiqC5cW1h4A
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pBJyEE9X2Gi1P8ieA
Post by: Pat B on September 26, 2022, 11:26:26 AM
I don't use FF type strings so take what I say with a grain of salt. :thumbsup:
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 26, 2022, 11:43:50 AM
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Post by: Longcruise on September 26, 2022, 12:14:41 PM
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on September 26, 2022, 12:18:07 PM
Post by: Kirkll on September 26, 2022, 12:43:18 PM
Kirk, FYI, with antler you have to fill the porous insides with super glue to seal the it first than smooth it before gluing to the tip.
I don't use FF type strings so take what I say with a grain of salt. :thumbsup:
Thanks bro.... i figured that out the hard way many moons ago. :knothead:
Actually i think using epoxy to fill the pores works better than super glue, but the thick super glue works ok....
But... i like the looks of water buffalo , cattle, or even sheep horn material better. and it is much more flexible... I did some overlays using antelope horn before, and it's also pretty flexible......
But on long bows where you have a flat area to mount your tip overlays, Deer or elk antler would work fine after filling the pores and hold up well to FF string. it's just trying to bend the stuff to fit a glass RC limb or even a hybrid limb tip that i don't like to mess with... Kirk
Post by: onetone on September 26, 2022, 02:30:18 PM
Post by: Buggs on September 26, 2022, 03:06:44 PM
I don’t like the layer lines in phenolic, is all of it like that? And I’ve never used macarta before, does it have the layer lines?
Just about all phenolic and Micarta will have layer lines because they are made with paper or fabric. G-10 will be the best bet for a homogeneous material look. Also, there is more than one type of G-10. Some is made with finer fiberglass and is almost as smooth as the fiberglass in limb glass. A fella could make some Micarta with rice paper or fine silk fabric which would be near invisible.
Post by: Crooked Stic on September 26, 2022, 03:55:15 PM
I use a couple of layers of glass under hardwood.
Post by: Buemaker on September 26, 2022, 04:32:27 PM
Post by: Mad Max on September 26, 2022, 08:01:45 PM
Post by: kennym on September 26, 2022, 09:00:54 PM
Post by: Mad Max on September 27, 2022, 11:02:38 AM
Post by: Buggs on September 27, 2022, 11:14:59 AM
What had you heard or experienced that has you thinking it could be a problem?
Post by: Mad Max on September 27, 2022, 11:25:17 AM
Post by: Buggs on September 27, 2022, 12:00:40 PM
I ran a stylus over it and did not detect any defects. Nothing under magnification either.
I would guess whoever told you it could be a problem might be using very skinny strings, which could certainly cause damage. But then again with too skinny strings that problem would not be limited to FF material. There is a limit to how much force you can concentrate in one area.
The strings used on that bow are fat, equivalent to a 12 strand B50. I like the low stretch of FF and a fat string allows me to leave off the PomPoms. Fat strings weighs less than skinny strings with PomPoms, it's quiet, and has less wind resistance.
Went back and double checked the string. I was off on the fattness, it's eq. to a 14 strand B50
Post by: Mad Max on September 27, 2022, 12:45:29 PM
Post by: onetone on September 27, 2022, 03:05:36 PM
Post by: Mad Max on September 27, 2022, 03:50:36 PM
The end serving makes a big difference in the shock and wear at the string nock. Larger serving tends to cushion.
When I posted this topic I was thinking in my head (what tip overlays for Flemish twist 10/12 strands of FF or D-97).
I have made endless loop strings for Siyah type bows and maybe a recurve or 2.
A pain in the bottom to get them looking good and stay that way after bracing and a few shots.
I have heard that African Blackwood will hold up to FF strings but I guess I should learn more about what will hold up to these strings. I could always add some B-50 to the loop also.
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 27, 2022, 04:06:21 PM
I've used FF string on a few of my BBO bows with the buffalo horn tips.
Even put a piece of wood overtop of the horn overlay a couple times.
Never had a bow break or string break at the tips.
Post by: Pat B on September 27, 2022, 05:03:15 PM
Post by: Mad Max on September 27, 2022, 07:04:17 PM
Pat I don't really want to add anything to it :thumbsup:
Basically I wanted to know what hard wood's and phenolic and so forth could be used.
Kirk I have used red or black Phenolic from Binghams or KennyM but I was thinking they all had whitish lines in them when you taper to zero, it's been a while since I've used it
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 27, 2022, 07:34:24 PM
:thumbsup:
Post by: kennym on September 27, 2022, 07:49:14 PM
Post by: onetone on September 27, 2022, 08:35:52 PM
Quote
The end serving makes a big difference in the shock and wear at the string nock. Larger serving tends to cushion.
When I posted this topic I was thinking in my head (what tip overlays for Flemish twist 10/12 strands of FF or D-97).
I have made endless loop strings for Siyah type bows and maybe a recurve or 2.
A pain in the bottom to get them looking good and stay that way after bracing and a few shots.
I have heard that African Blackwood will hold up to FF strings but I guess I should learn more about what will hold up to these strings. I could always add some B-50 to the loop also.
Realized you were probably referring to Flemish twist strings after I posted. Oh well … my bias came out as I make only endless loop strings.
Post by: Crooked Stic on September 27, 2022, 09:10:32 PM
Post by: bjansen on September 27, 2022, 09:29:57 PM
The shape of the finish groove probably as important as the material used to reinforce it. A teardrop shape is the best in my opinion.
I agree This is the key!!! In the bow I am building now I am simply using 1 layer of clear .040 fiberglass.
Post by: Mad Max on September 27, 2022, 10:09:44 PM
The shape of the finish groove probably as important as the material used to reinforce it. A teardrop shape is the best in my opinion.
I round them over and under towards the riser so I think I'm doing what your saying, that way the pressure is spread out. :thumbsup:
Post by: BigJim on September 28, 2022, 07:40:50 AM
Micarta is a trade name and is all phenolic.. you know.. not all phenolic is Micarta, but all Micarta is phenolic.
G10 is technically a phenolic as well, but done with epoxy and fiberglass. Far superior in strength and lack of flexibility but can be hard on tools. Having said that, I find it far easier to file than typical phenolic. A very thin layer under any other material is all it would take to safe guard your tips.
When using antler, there are several things to consider when looking for trouble free overlays. I use moose exclusively because I can grind it very thin and get most of that pithy core ground off. I also soak it in acetone for a day or so to remove any fat that remains followed by a pre heat with a heat gun.. not so much to make it brittle. I then grind to a rough shape and thin to my desired size with 36 grit to give the glue something to hold to.
I no longer use CA glue to do any overlays as it leave a whiteish line and never trusted it for horn or antler anyway. I can't say that I've never had a problem with horn or antler, but at customer reqest, many thousands of bows (about 90%) get it and I can only recall problems with maybe 5 that were because of that media. Having said that, I'm sure it was more of a failure on my part than the antler itself. I also wouldn't consider it fast flight compatible on its own.. at least not for a glass bow.
BigJim
Post by: Buggs on September 28, 2022, 08:52:32 AM
Micarta is a trade name and is all phenolic.. you know.. not all phenolic is Micarta, but all Micarta is phenolic.
Actually, hardly any consumer goods are made with phenolic resin anymore. Phenolic's are made with formaldehyde
and its a known carcinogen. So if you get your hand on some real phenolic like Bakelite or something more modern, be very careful not to aspirate the crap!
Post by: Kirkll on September 28, 2022, 11:12:25 AM
The shape of the finish groove probably as important as the material used to reinforce it. A teardrop shape is the best in my opinion.
This is spot on… The depth of the string groove on the back of the limb can make a difference too.
You can purchase linen phenolic in 1/4” thickness if you like one solid color tip overlay. It’s pretty flexible for clamping it to a slightly curved limb tip.
I like to use several different colored layers so I can see the the shape of the groove depth as I’m filing it and get the tear drop shape centered perfectly. Rounding over the transition to the belly side of the limbs is important too.
If you can see any sharp bends in your string after it’s strung, and it’s not holding the tear drop shape throughout the draw cycle, it’s going to wear on the string, and put pressure on the tip overlay unevenly.
Kirk
Post by: Tim Finley on October 03, 2022, 11:02:00 AM
I entered my shop one time when it was ten below zero and about 72 in my shop, I had been hunting, I unstung my longbow and both antler tips came off just from the temperature change .
Post by: BigJim on October 03, 2022, 11:40:03 AM
Bigjim
Post by: Kirkll on October 04, 2022, 12:21:17 PM
Horn works great but antler no good . Antler contracts and expands with humidity and temperature and will pop off no matter if you soak it in glue or grind it thin i even tried drilling tiny holes in the glue side with a dentist bit so the glue would pillar and they still popped off . I soaked them in ac etone to get the fat out no difference .
I entered my shop one time when it was ten below zero and about 72 in my shop, I had been hunting, I unstung my longbow and both antler tips came off just from the temperature change .
I think my fingernails might just pop off with that much temp change. :o :o :o
Why on earth anyone would hunt in 10 below temps is beyond my comprehension.
I gave up messing with antler tips years ago myself after too many pop offs happening using both epoxy and super glue. Horn looks cooler anyway.
What ever you are doing Jim, keep on doing it if it works for you.
Kirk
Post by: Longcruise on October 04, 2022, 02:25:37 PM
Quote
Why on earth anyone would hunt in 10 below temps is beyond my comprehension.
I hunted in -38f once. That was and will remain the last time. :o
Post by: onetone on October 04, 2022, 05:57:00 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on October 04, 2022, 08:11:29 PM
Post by: Kirkll on October 12, 2022, 12:40:17 PM
Post by: BigJim on October 12, 2022, 12:55:58 PM
Backed off to 100 yards and finished with a rifle.. still, pretty darn cold even for a Minnesotan. Now fishin in the cold? that is where it's at! above zero is for hole hopping and panfish. -5 to -40 is for walleyes and heated fish houses. :biglaugh:
BigJim
Post by: Bryan Adolphe on October 12, 2022, 03:14:35 PM
Post by: Tim Finley on October 13, 2022, 07:03:32 PM
Not all antler tip overlays will come off but the chance is always there and if you are on a trip or in a stand and notice one missing its one to many .
Linen micarta is still the best .
Post by: darin putman on October 16, 2022, 10:32:06 PM
Post by: Kirkll on October 20, 2022, 10:44:18 AM
On selfbows and bamboo backed bows, I use wood or the leather saturated with superglue Pat spoke of. I use 8125 for my strings,loops served with .024 halo, 14 strand continuous loop mostly, never a problem.
Do they still make the 8125 ? That stuff made some pretty small diameter high performance strings, but I haven’t seen it in years. Kirk
Post by: darin putman on October 20, 2022, 11:42:56 AM
Post by: Kirkll on October 23, 2022, 10:01:26 AM
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on October 23, 2022, 10:05:49 AM
I see you using gloss finish, do you knock the shine down?
Post by: Buggs on October 23, 2022, 10:11:40 AM
Post by: onetone on October 23, 2022, 11:26:17 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on October 24, 2022, 06:49:46 AM
Post by: OldRawhide42 on October 24, 2022, 07:12:05 AM
Post by: Kirkll on October 24, 2022, 09:43:06 AM
Is the red phenolic Kirk?
I see you using gloss finish, do you knock the shine down?
Yes… linen phenolic from Binghams. The high gloss is lacquer I use as a sanding sealer. That shine gets nocked off with a fine scotch pad before my satin clear coating. The wood is Bocote.
Post by: Kirkll on October 24, 2022, 09:58:36 AM
Kirt what bit do you use to cut for the string ?
I use a 1/8” ceramic tile burr like this one…. It’s VERY aggressive when brand new, and very difficult to use. I typically nock the edge off the bit on a piece of stone or marble before using it on string grooves. These last a long time and do a great job getting the rough groove cut. Then I finish it with a chainsaw file and use some emery cloth twisted into a rope to center up the tear drop shape.
I’ve tried using various emery cords in 1/8”and 3/16” sizes, but cannot find it in the course grit I like for shaping. All the emery cord I’ve found is very fine grit, which works fine for polishing, but not shaping. Kirk
https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-562-Tile-Cutting-Bit/dp/B00004UDIC/ref=asc_df_B00004UDIC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309763890402&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9512524487379705605&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9052493&hvtargid=pla-441763816545&psc=1
Post by: Kirkll on October 24, 2022, 10:20:47 AM
Classy looking! Why the additional black lam on top of the red?
I like to use 3 layers of phenolic under the wood for both looks and structural reasons. Without that second black layer the string puts more pressure on the wood, and more importantly puts more pressure on the glue line itself from wood to phenolic. The phenolic to phenolic bond is much stronger than wood to phenolic.
It also serves another purpose…. When shaping these tip overlays with a solid piece of material it is real easy to get the shape and depth of the groove off center a bit. You want a perfect tear drop shape. Using different colored phenolic you can see the shape and depth you are filing just by looking at it. This really helps in consistency of the finished product.
Years ago when I was into a lot of performance testing, I did some tests using different thickness and different types of tip overlay material to see how it effected the speed…..On hunting weight bows I found very little difference between a solid G10 overlay, and lighter weight wood overlays as long as I kept them moderate in length. I even taped nickels to the tips one time to add tip weight, and didn’t see a big difference at all….Some… but not a lot. Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on October 24, 2022, 10:22:34 AM
Post by: Kirkll on October 24, 2022, 10:56:32 AM
Use a dremel tool
Yup…. Me too. Those bits fit nicely in the Dremel tool.
Post by: Longcruise on October 24, 2022, 01:25:17 PM
Quote
I even taped nickels to the tips one time to add tip weight, and didn’t see a big difference at all….Some… but not a lot.
I did that with quarters on a 66" straight ASL. If I recall correctly, I got over an ounce on each end and lost around 13 fps. Speaks to that style's efficiency with heavy arrows.
Post by: Buemaker on October 24, 2022, 02:31:19 PM
Post by: mmattockx on October 24, 2022, 04:58:46 PM
Kirt what bit do you use to cut for the string ?
I use a 1/8” ceramic tile burr like this one…. It’s VERY aggressive when brand new, and very difficult to use.
For those that want something a bit more controllable, I use this carbide grit blade that goes in a standard hacksaw frame:
https://www.amazon.ca/IVY-Classic-26620-4-Inch-Carbide/dp/B0052IO9NO/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2FKP6L6CW1HPY&keywords=carbide+tile+hacksaw+blade&qid=1666644857&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjgzIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=carbide+tile+hacksaw+bla%2Caps%2C544&sr=8-10
Cuts very easy through anything I've used for tip overlays and is super easy to manage because it is a hand tool. It leaves a groove that is big enough to easliy clean up with a small chainsaw file.
Mark
Post by: Longcruise on October 24, 2022, 05:59:59 PM
Post by: Kirkll on October 25, 2022, 08:44:04 PM
Kirt what bit do you use to cut for the string ?I use a 1/8” ceramic tile burr like this one…. It’s VERY aggressive when brand new, and very difficult to use.
For those that want something a bit more controllable, I use this carbide grit blade that goes in a standard hacksaw frame:
https://www.amazon.ca/IVY-Classic-26620-4-Inch-Carbide/dp/B0052IO9NO/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2FKP6L6CW1HPY&keywords=carbide+tile+hacksaw+blade&qid=1666644857&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjgzIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=carbide+tile+hacksaw+bla%2Caps%2C544&sr=8-10
Cuts very easy through anything I've used for tip overlays and is super easy to manage because it is a hand tool. It leaves a groove that is big enough to easliy clean up with a small chainsaw file.
Mark
THAT is an outstanding idea bro! I have some of those i used to use for ceramic tile years ago i had completely forgot about... I gotta find em now...LOL "I know they are here somewhere..." How many times ive said that over the years i cant count.... :knothead: :knothead: :banghead:
That ceramic burr bit i recommended is VERY aggressive when sharp. I'd be lying if i said i haven't screwed up a few tip overlays with it over the years. i always nock the edge off it before using it the first time.
But... when you have a half dozen sets of limbs to do overlays on, that dremel tool is much quicker to use for roughing out the tip notches.
Post by: Roy from Pa on October 26, 2022, 07:36:43 AM
Very easy to control and cuts great.
Then if you stick a short piece in a drill it works good also.
Post by: Mad Max on October 26, 2022, 08:24:44 AM
That handle looks Awesome, nice shaping on it :tongue:
Post by: Longcruise on October 26, 2022, 09:10:15 AM
That's what I use, Mark. I cut off a 3 inch long section and put it in a little wooden handle.
Very easy to control and cuts great.
I use that same thing to carve pumpkins 🎃
Post by: Roy from Pa on October 26, 2022, 09:36:07 AM
:wavey: :laughing:
Post by: Kirkll on October 26, 2022, 12:40:28 PM
You play with pumpkins often?
:wavey: :laughing:
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: I'm not touching that one.... :laughing: :laughing: