Post by: pdk25 on September 22, 2022, 12:33:06 AM
I just want to share some of my experiences, and some from people that I know. I have said a few times that luck is probably the largest contributor to success when it comes to buffalo hunting and I still feel that way.
I guess I will go in a little bit of reverse order. I recently was on an Asiatic Buffalo hunt with a couple of outstanding hunters. We had some different experiences, which may be useful to someone else going on the hunt.
One of the hunters took a nice management bull and a cow, and the other took a nice trophy bull. Multiple arrows took one of the bulls, but only one went through a rib, and that one was around 1000 grains and tipped with an iron will broadhead. As luck would have it, the remainder of the arrows shot went between the ribs and had no impediment to penetration. All of us were using very high FOC arrows, I am not sure regarding the calculation, and all of the arrows were roughly between 900 and 1000 grains, being shot out of bows ranging between 70 and 75#. I know that my personal bow was 74# at 29.5" and was bareshaft tuned and shooting 926 grains at right around 155 fps.
I will describe my expereinces on 3 different animals regarding penetration.
The first was a nice management bull slightly quartering away at 17 yards. For a broadside shot, the ideal placement is up the leg and mid body to hit where the major vessels and airways go into and out of the lungs. This is reportedly the fastest way to put them on the ground. Since he was quartering away the guide said put the arrow on the crease and mid body. I hit exactly where I aimed, the bull ran up onto the flat, and to to my amazement the arrow fell out after 20 yards. The bull ran off with a scant short blood trail, and almost certainly lived. The arrow had blood spattered on around 4" of the shaft, and the Tuffhead broadhead was covered in bubbly lung blood. The guess is that the arrow was horizontally oriented on impact and tried to go between the ribs and got greatly slowed down to the point that only the broadhead reached the lungs, then it turned and fell freely out from betweeen the ribs. Surely if it broke ribs, it wouldn't have fallen out as easily, but obviously I can't prove that.
The next day was spent looking for that bull, and not finding it. Not surprising given the size of the lungs and the relatively small broadhead. As it would happen, a very large trophy bull was spotted and I was able to close the gap to around 17 yards again, this time completely broadside. Unfortunately, I hit around 5" below mid body, but straight up the leg. Double lung, but over the heart and below the great vessels of the lungs. The bull took off and we gave chase. I guess that there was around 23" penetration on this bull, with 10" of shaft sticking out, 20 inside plus around a 3" broadhead. Stopped on the offside shoulder. Dead animal, but he was able to make it past the escarpment, we lost sight of him and poor blood trail. We looked for him for 2 days and never recovered him. I was pretty devastated, and a combination of things, including my performance, made this my worst outcome hunting trip ever. This brings myto the next buff.
This buff was shot by the guide with a rifle after being mistaken for a wounded bull. I had the opportunity to put a couple arrows in it to put it out of it's misery. These were quartering away shots, with the bull laying partially on its side against the slope of the escarpment. The first arrow was pretty steep quartering away, penetrated well, but the bull didn't pass away quickly, so a follow up arrow was placed, slightly lower and less quartering. There was a loud crack, and blood poured out the wound. We assumed a heart shot but when it didn't expire rapidly, it was dispatched with a rifle. An extensive autopsy showed that the first shot went between a rib and destroyed the entirety of the closest lung. The second shot centerpunched a rib, and didn't get fully through the rib. The blood pouring out was from the damaged lung, not the heart. It took quite a bit of work to get that broadhead out. It was probably sticking a little over 2" through the rib but just tickling the heart.
Speaking of centerpunching a rib, a good friend of mine and great archer shot large mature cape buffalo bull and centerpunched a rib. Just enough to make him lay down a little bit away The follow up shot penetrated to the fletch and took him out. His first shot didn't quite make it past the rib. I think he was using high foc arrows in the upper 900 grains and around 77#.
I was using a similar setup with I shot my cape buffalo and was able to penetrate completely through one lung, but only tickle the other. He went a long way before expiring. Turns out, my broadhead hit him horizontally oriented between ribs, which acted like a brake on each blade, impeding penetration.
Cape buffalo cow I shot penetrated to the fletch quartering away, with a quick follow up broadside that broke thought the rib and took out the vitals. No autopsy on her as it was getting dark and the herd was threatening us.
Another friend shot a massive water buffalo quartering away. Shot went between the ribs, and it died quickly. He tried the same shot 3 times on the carcass, each time being stopped by the rib. When he shot it broadside he had full penetration.
Now some thoughts of mine based on these experiences:
Take the Ashby studies for what they are, but realize they don't include all hunting situation, specifically not quartering away shots on live buffalo. They also don't address the differences in anatomy of large mature animals from less mature animals, and what moving muscles can do to impede penetration.
I don't have enough testing to have too strong of convictions on things, but based on what I saw, you can't rely on the single bevel of a long 3:1 broadhead to rotate and crack the rib to improve penetration, particularly on a quartering away shot. It is possible that you would have improved performance with a shorter thinner broadhead in the long run. Another thing is on this last hunt I was using Tuffhead dangerous game heads. I really can't recommend that head. It is far thicker and a little wider than the 225 grain heads, and I think that impedes penetration more than a tiny bit of possible edge chatter would. Once again, I think there needs to be alot more testing particularly when it comes to quartering away shots.
I will leave off for now, just mentioning that the previously reported requirements for reliable full penetration of buffalo have been found to be inadequate under hunting conditions for myself and others that I know. If I am able to go back again, I will either use a more energetic setup with some changes to the broadhead that I am using, or I will limit myself to only what I perceive to be perfectly broadside animals, which is greatly limiting under spot and stalk conditions.
Post by: Steelhead on September 22, 2022, 02:40:18 AM
What do you think would happen if you were able to handle say 90 pound bows and above.Some guys hunt with heavier bows for that type of animal.Though I have seen success with bows more like your mid to upper 70 pound bows.Perhaps more medicine is required to deal with the heavy'er bone and wider expanse to get through one side of the animal to the other taking out both lungs.
Hill and others shot some truelly heavy wieght bows for Water Buffalo and other huge beasts.He shot the 3 to one Hill head that was narrow.
Post by: pdk25 on September 22, 2022, 03:42:15 AM
Lie I said l, luck plays a large role regarding broadhead orientation on impact, as well as exactly where the ribs are hit. We always hear the success stories, but seldom the failures.
What would be the ideal broadhead? I wish I knew, but I am forming some opinions. If a long single bevel is unable to generate enough torque to split the rib rib, then the single bevel isn’t of much use in that scenario. A thinner stronger double bevel may be better. I am relatives certain that the smaller the blade and bevel, the better as long as the broadhead stays intact, provided it is still the same size or larger than the shaft/adapter. If one is to stay with the tuffhead design, the Meathead would likely be a better choice because it more narrow and thinner than the other offerings. I then noticed that the 225 grain is slightly thinner and more narrow than the 300 grain or dangerous game offerings. Ironically, I am not certain that they will continue to offer the Meathead or 225 grain, based on what I am seeing for stock on the website. Additionally, there have been a lot of reports of great success on buffalo with relatively thinner iron will heads on Cape Buffalo. Is this because of the extra energy, the broadhead choice, or a combination of the two? Time will tell.
Post by: cacciatore on September 22, 2022, 05:30:39 AM
Post by: Cory Mattson on September 22, 2022, 08:06:16 AM
I'm good for leaving the Ashby study for now.
If it helps I used 1150 grain arrows. 30 years ago I was sliding full length 1916s inside 2020s and a full length carbon inside a 2219 - if memory serves.
Broadhead was STOS with lead bird shot to get heavy enough to bullet hole
In fact I only practiced with bare shafts - ALL of em for many months and switched to broadhead of equal weight and fletched just 6 weeks before going
Bow weight was ordered 90# - came in 86# - I accepted
shot 65# daily for almost 40 years - but for these Large Big Game hunts I had a 75# bow with its own arrows that I would shoot around 20 arrows - them shoot the Heavy bow for about 20 arrows
This I would do for 8 months before the specific trip - which there were multiple over a ten year period so It was continually on and off
I also remember hunting hogs year round back then and I would always use the heavy tackle.
One thing I see in your report is quartering shots. I went into this deciding ahead of time I would not shoot quartering shots. Of six large big game over 1200# and some well over that I had very good results from broadside shots and lost none.
There has been a lot of progress the past 2 decades - strings - arrow material - bow design. I think guys can do these hunts with lighter equipment but the results you share are sobering and need to be considered.
Been a while - glad I went when I was a young guy.
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Post by: Friend on September 22, 2022, 08:20:02 AM
Post by: MnFn on September 22, 2022, 08:24:11 AM
Still hoping for a moose tag, but that is about the limit for this guy.
Post by: KAZ on September 22, 2022, 08:55:40 AM
Thank you for the write up and humility to share your real world experiences. These are hunts a lot of us dream about, prepare for, and invest a great deal of resources in financially, physically, and mentally… Heartbreaking and sobering for sure. There’s a lot of wisdom in this post and thread. :campfire:
Post by: rastaman on September 22, 2022, 09:44:29 AM
Post by: Orion on September 22, 2022, 11:17:15 AM
Regardless, it just seems an iffy situation on those big critters, with the luck of the draw always involved. Maybe it's just the success stories that tend to get reported and repeated.
Post by: pdk25 on September 22, 2022, 11:46:02 AM
Post by: David P on September 22, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
Post by: Gun on September 22, 2022, 05:20:18 PM
I've taken slight quartering on Moose but prefer broadside. I know, not near what a Water Buffalo is.
That hunt is the only out of country I would like to do but I don't think I could work up to 70# anymore.
Post by: GCook on September 22, 2022, 05:36:57 PM
Sorry you had such a painful experience but sharing it may help someone else out.
Post by: Terry Green on September 22, 2022, 06:55:14 PM
I really hate to hear about your tuff hunt. That's a real bummer.
But definitely thanks for sharing.
Post by: pdk25 on September 22, 2022, 09:05:51 PM
Post by: Ben Maher on September 23, 2022, 05:45:25 AM
pdk appreciate the report
I'm good for leaving the Ashby study for now.
If it helps I used 1150 grain arrows. 30 years ago I was sliding full length 1916s inside 2020s and a full length carbon inside a 2219 - if memory serves.
Broadhead was STOS with lead bird shot to get heavy enough to bullet hole
In fact I only practiced with bare shafts - ALL of em for many months and switched to broadhead of equal weight and fletched just 6 weeks before going
Bow weight was ordered 90# - came in 86# - I accepted
shot 65# daily for almost 40 years - but for these Large Big Game hunts I had a 75# bow with its own arrows that I would shoot around 20 arrows - them shoot the Heavy bow for about 20 arrows
This I would do for 8 months before the specific trip - which there were multiple over a ten year period so It was continually on and off
I also remember hunting hogs year round back then and I would always use the heavy tackle.
One thing I see in your report is quartering shots. I went into this deciding ahead of time I would not shoot quartering shots. Of six large big game over 1200# and some well over that I had very good results from broadside shots and lost none.
There has been a lot of progress the past 2 decades - strings - arrow material - bow design. I think guys can do these hunts with lighter equipment but the results you share are sobering and need to be considered.
Been a while - glad I went when I was a young guy.
<><
<--------------<<<<<<
I remember , I think, that you wrote of such in TBM ? Shooting bareshafts Weighted Judo’s through Hay bales as practice ?
Post by: Sawpilot 75 on September 23, 2022, 06:52:22 AM
Post by: Wudstix on September 23, 2022, 12:06:52 PM
Being within 17 yards of 1,000-1,200 pounds of pure rage must have been "exciting"!!!
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
Post by: David P on September 23, 2022, 12:46:30 PM
David P, perhaps you could explain the multiple Cape Buff bulls shot broadside?
You want me to explain Ashby’s findings or my personal ones? As for myself I have not bowhunted Cape Buffalo, I have shot one with a rifle. I would not book a hunt and fly half way around the world without at least looking at the anatomy of the animal. Clearly in the skeleton picture quartering away shots at Buffalo are ill-advised, your 3 back to back failures are proof of that.
You’ve posted this same thing on at least 2 different forums and more than one bowhunter that has successfully killed Buffalo with a bow has told you the same thing, broadside shots only for Buffalo. You can’t blame the Ashby study’s for poor shot selection especially when you took shots he advised against. Hope this helps?
Post by: pdk25 on September 23, 2022, 01:39:01 PM
Post by: David P on September 23, 2022, 02:18:46 PM
Post by: pdk25 on September 23, 2022, 03:40:54 PM
Post by: George Vernon on September 23, 2022, 07:02:06 PM
I appreciate your sharing of your hunt—successes and failures. Let me add a bit to your observations of Ashby’s studies. To his credit, he tried to normalize the study of arrow penetration in real skin, tissue and bone. But working with biological systems is tough. So many variables, and most outside the experimenters control.
I’ve read all the reports and looked at the regression analysis he did while examining all the variables he tested. The regression analysis attempts to see what variable(s) can actually be ‘modeled’ using a formula to predict results that match experimental measurements. It’s been a while since I went through all the reports and statistics, so I may not cite everything just right (a dangerous thing to do on this site). Statisticians use the ‘r squared’ value to say whether or not a variable can be accurately modeled. R-squared is a number displayed in percents or as a decimal fraction. For example, an R squared value of 0.5 or 50% can roughly be interpreted as the model will match reality about half the time. Most statisticians don’t get excited about a model until the value of R squared gets above 0.8 or higher, meaning the model and reality will agree 80% of the time or more. Of all the tests done by Ashby, only one variable was statistically shown to have a predictable effect on penetration and that was the amount of FOC. I believe this variable was the only one to show an R squared value of more than 0.5.
Now hold on with the poisoned arrows. All of the data collected is valuable in the sense it gives us some empirical insight, but FOC is the only one that was consistently able to explain the real world results.
So, Pat, I’m not surprised to hear your single bevel results did not show great penetration. It’s one of the variables that matched predicted results less than half the time.
I understand many folks think Ashby’s results are infallible and will flame my comments. But folks, the statistics I’m quoting are not mine, they are the ones Dr. Ashby published. I’m just trying to say which ones are most likely to be replicated by others. And I believe the only one that fits that criteria is the amount of FOC.
Post by: GCook on September 23, 2022, 10:43:15 PM
However that can be said for many of the scientific findings over the centuries.
Post by: hybridbow hunter on September 24, 2022, 08:54:06 AM
That draw is pretty accurate and explain why. Arrow has a high odd to be internally deflected along the OUTSIDE rib cage and in case it penetrates the ribs you need to cut more rib bone on one or 2 ribs than a broadside or little quatering toward on a high lung shot.
I hunted water buff in 2016 and used a 920 gr arrow flying 175+ fps and an tuffhead BH 300 on a 150 gr steel glu in glu on adaptator
I didn’t face poor penetration but scarce blood and little longer than expected time until death for the critter.
From that trip and some other African experience on rather heavy animals I really experienced no advantage with 3:1 “Ashby” design over low profile/ extreme sharpness BH like ironwill In fact I did experience much penetrating power with the last out of my bows.
For my next trip (cape buff) I know will use regular 200 or 225 gr Ironwill BH with no bleeder screwed on 150 gr steel insert and a little lighter arrow in the 800-850 gr flying in the 175-180 fps range.
Post by: hybridbow hunter on September 24, 2022, 09:39:04 AM
Post by: Terry Green on September 25, 2022, 04:04:34 PM
Right here 1st month of Tradgang...... crazy.....
https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=127087.msg2258505#msg2258505