Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: NinjaVanish on August 16, 2022, 08:15:29 AM
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Question for any of you that have weighed out your Simmons heads when you've gotten them:
I've ordered 175 landsharks and 190 Timbersharks that both came in around 185 grains. I'm trying to get something around 175 without too much modification. Does the 165 grain Tigershark come in heavy as well?
I know 10 grains doesn't make a hill of beans difference, but I'm pretty precise with the weights in my quiver, usually only 1-2 grains difference between them all, if that. All of my VPA heads come in relatively close to 175, usually around 180 and can work with that. Any guidance here is appreciated. :shaka:
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You won't shoot the difference in 10 grains unless you are severly borderline on spine. You won't be able to shootvthe difference either as you aren't perfect like head weights.... that also vary from sharpening after 3 kills.
Paralysis by Analysis comes to mind....
Work on your shooting accuracy, via Magic T, and the animals you are chasing... both are MUCH more important that petty fretting over 10 grains.
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Terry, while appreciate your sentiment and tend to agree to a point, I still want my quiver to be within 1-2 grains. To each his own I suppose. I even said in the OP that it didn't make a hill of beans, and it really doesn't under 25 yards. At 30-40, with the wider angles of the Simmons heads and the additional weight, I do notice a difference in drop.
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Terry, while appreciate your sentiment and tend to agree to a point, I still want my quiver to be within 1-2 grains.
Learn to shoot at those distances .... quiver or no quiver nor wider or not, it matters not to me.
Best of luck getting your quiver within 1-2 grains..
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Seems like what I'm doing does matter to you otherwise you wouldn't have responded because you completely ignored the OP and told me to do something different. And I'm not talking total weight of the quiver; I'm referring to each arrow being within 1-2 grains of each other.
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I can handle them being a tad heavy, but not light. I see variations but I honestly don't weigh every broadhead. If I feel like I took alot of material off, I may check it. My arrow spine is pretty consistent so I'm shooting more than one weight broadhead most of the time. Somewhere between 160-200.
I do weigh all of my finished wood arrows though. Under 20 yds, I can't see a difference in 50 grains. Alot of those arrows vary by a gram or 3....which is about 50 grains.
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Once I get a tune I really like my arrows to match up at least within 5-8 grains of one another. That's just a confidence boost for me because I am particular on my set up. Anything that gives me extra confidence is a plus no matter what it is. Of course 99% of people will never be able to shoot to see the difference in 15 grains between each arrow but if you don't start taking those steps you will never get elite accuracy. I am one of those people who weigh out components with each other to keep tolerances tight though. It makes basically zero difference but what else do I have to do while I wait on deer season.
For what It's worth seems like the majority of my simmons heads come in a bit light. I want a 200gr broadhead so I will add whatever gold tip weight stack I need in the back of the insert to get the total weight I need anyways.
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I'll give you one better. I don't weigh them. I order 150 grain heads. They get put on and shot. The arrows are tuned for 150 grain heads. I spin test them. I can work a few things if something isn't right. Usually it's an arrow or insert or nock adjustment issue but I'd check weight at that point a well.
But as said I can't shoot 10 grains difference on a fletched arrow 25 yards and under.
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Where's the popcorn emoji?
1 to 2 grains is the apex of critical. That right there, regardless of useful or not, is the difference between 2 of the same model scales.....made on the same day, one powered with Duracells and another with Energizers.
I have been fortunate and am thankful for the knowledge and experience shared by those that have come before me ....... something not to be taken for granted. I am always open to learning .....even when it means changing something I may have always thought was "the way" to do something ...........
As far as broadheads go, I have never opened a new package of heads and weighed all of them and they come out to be exactly what the package states. This is true for all manufacturers models I have ever used .......which is a fair amount. If that miniscule variance was of any consequence, those manufacturers wouldn't have issues producing heads fast enough to keep up with consumer demands ...... something we seem to be experiencing these days.
I shoot lights out on targets to 40 yards with broadheads and field points, with a 35gr difference between the 2. I have a ballpark for total arrow weight for each individual arrow that makes it to the stand but it doesn't matter to me once I arrive at the goal.... because the goal was to make them all go where I need them to when the string is dropped.
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Never used to worry about broadheads, since I got a grain scale I check every one. Most new heads are within 5 grain range for a dozen. At 50-60 yards that might be significant, but my hunting shoots have all been under 18 yards. (48 yrs) 20 grains of arrow weight at 20 yards starts to be noticeable to me. I just try to keep an arrow set matched (close) in my quiver at one time. Do you weight each arrow, each nock, each insert, each fletch? Analysis Paralysis is real!!!
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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Again, I think everyone agrees that it doesn't really matter. That was never the point of my question.
I LIKE to have my arrows coming in within 1-2 grains of each other. Is it necessary? No. Do I give a rat's ass if you think I'm overthinking it? No. It's just what I like.
Thanks to everyone who understood the question and didn't take this thread somewhere far, far away.
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Again, I think everyone agrees that it doesn't really matter. That was never the point of my question.
I LIKE to have my arrows coming in within 1-2 grains of each other. Is it necessary? No. Do I give a rat's ass if you think I'm overthinking it? No. It's just what I like.
Thanks to everyone who understood the question and didn't take this thread somewhere far, far away.
I only owned one set of Simmons. I'll not spend money on anymore. Sharpen nicely, make a helluva gash. Tips and blades bend if it hits anything solid. Rib, offside shoulder, even a turkey.
Who cares how closely matches they are if they are one and done. To be fair the third one has held up through a couple pigs and still ready for another one.
But no, as I said I don't weigh them.
I noticed you put your age as N/A. It actually does.
I'd recommend you find a different web forum if arguing these types of points is what you like to do. It doesn't work as well around here as it does places like AT. Here it's a bit more, calm.
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I have weighed several Simmons Broadheads and none weighed as advertised, the 190 grain heads weighed in at 177, my arrows were tuned to shoot 200 grains tips so I thought 190's would be pretty close, So I bought the 205 grain Simmons safari heads they weighed in at 217, but after sharpening and a bit of belt sander work they now weigh in at 207, :archer2:, most of my hunting is for elk and I need a broadhead to be fairly close to the advertised weight because that is what I've tuned that arrow with, To me its not about not hitting the target but I want my arrow to be tuned and flying straight so I get all the penetration i need and want.
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I have found the Simmons to be as tough as any other broadhead I've shot, I've put several thru elk and all performed great, my only complaint is they don't weigh as advertised, aand that is all for the tune of the arrow
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Ninja, not being critical nor judgemental, but I was wondering if you also spec out your field points as tightly as you do your broadheads. If so, how many points, etc. do you have to try to get within the 1 to 2 grain margin for each dozen arrows you build? At what point does cost become a factor, as it seems to me that you would have to go through a lot of points, shafts, nocks etc. to build a quiver full of arrows that closely matched.
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I'll tell you a Simmons story in a few... hold on.
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Here's my partial answer to the question. I had some Simmons heads. Did weigh them and they were heavier than advertised, but I don't remember by exactly how much. However, because I was putting them on wood shafts, I just matched the heavier heads with the lighter shafts to try to arrive at relatively equal arrow weight. Regardless, a few minutes with a file would bring them all pretty close to your goal.
My reason for discontinuing their use has already been alluded to in one post above. The points easily bend or break when hitting a fairly solid object.
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Cook, not only that, but more people that actually kill stuff, not just fantasies about it like other forums. Sorry, that's the truth. Go find dead animals on AT. :shaka:
Bisch and I post dead animals there. I've noticed the last couple of years others have followed suit and more barebow hunting members are posting up and some good topics are discussed. I didn't see anything wrong with the OPs question, just his/her reasoning for the weight variance being questionable. I know in very fast compound bows with low BHs very closely matches arrows with small run out tolerance make for a lot more accurate, long range killing arrows.
However most of the heads like Simmons or Zwiickey are not a machinced ferrel, stamped and machine sharpened blades set up to be high tolerance weight wise fly like a field point out to 100 yards.
Most barebow traditional guys think 30 yards is a poke at an animal. Most I know like 15 or 12 even though they shoot well on foam animals at 30 yards at every shoot.
Was the reaction unreasonable?; Maybe but the OP almost seemed like someone who knew it wouldn't be well received, a troll, and then immediately went on the offensive with his/her response to Mr. Greene.
So you know it wasn't gonna end pretty for him.
I've questioned Mr. Greene's responses a time or two and he's questioned mine. We are both here and I hope he, like I, feels no I'll will for being asked for clarification.
But just like TBH, THF or any other forum you don't own there are rules. If they aren't rules you can live by, move on. I've hit the back button many times on forums because my answer wasn't gonna help me or the thread but that has been a learned process. And if I do post on one something I know may get me in a stink I do so with the belief what I said was to defend a valid position or how another member was treated (called names or belittled) and that getting chewed out or banned was worth the post.
Here I think there was much fluff about not much but I do agree, show me some dead animals and I'll start to see why what you do helps you to be successful.
That's why Bisch is one of my trad heros.
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I would just take the lightest head in the group and then reduce the weight of all the other heads to match. Then you would have matched broadheads because no company will ever have all their heads weigh the same
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1st I would like to apologize for me getting a little defensive yesterday. I tried to give what I thought was good information in 2 or 3 posts and I used emoji cons with campfires and I guess I got taken completly wrong....
I've got to get my mom out of the hospital now as the doc just came out to tell what to expect and do for her.... more later...
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Ninja, I don’t weight mine but I did for you lol my tiger sharks are 169 and my buddys swamp sharks average 183
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Not being able to accept an apology, explanation and understanding another's circumstances and slamming the door behind you isn't a lot better imo.
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I have another minute I'm waiting to get my mother's prescriptions filled...
Again I apologize for getting a little bit too defensive and some replies that I was hearing from ninja. And I will be taking care of that as well as cleaning up this thread as it got way out of hand for sure.
I have have a very frustrating 2 days with my mother and the issue she has and it's very frustrating at times. I went through all the same issues with my father and it's tough. Even though I know what to expect from my dad's situation it'situation it's still very frustrating to deal with it at times but that is no excuse for me even if I do suspect a troll type of a response. I know better than that.
I've been running this site for almost 20 years and you wouldn't believe some of the things that I'd put up with, heard and me attack over but that's not an excuse either..... More later...
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I have another minute I'm waiting to get my mother's prescriptions filled...
Again I apologize for getting a little bit too defensive and some replies that I was hearing from ninja. And I will be taking care of that as well as cleaning up this thread as it got way out of hand for sure.
When someone offers a sincere apology you should accept it...if only for the reason that I'm fairly certain no one is perfect. I know I'm not. I'm pretty sure the only person ever on this earth who was perfect; had nail scarred hands.
If we could walk a mile in someone else's shoes; only then could we began to understand. As for my own self...I'm good. Thank you Terry.
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It's hard to see someone's expression and hear the tone of their voice on a forum . This is where a lot of disagreements come in.
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It's hard to see someone's expression and hear the tone of their voice on a forum . This is where a lot of disagreements come in.
Although I agree this happens alot, I keep going back to read the first 9 posts, hoping that could be the case. I keep coming to the same conclusionas that there are two very different tones to the conversation.
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Terry, I thought your posts were wrong, that being said I appreciate your apology and that shows class, we should all calm down and thank you for being strong enough to publicly apologize. I will pray your Mom is OK.
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I’ve not used that particular head but have found other Simmons heads to be inconsistent in weight, varying up to 10 grains, which is surprising. I don’t consider the OP foolish at all and certainly not worthy of criticism. I like my arrows precisely matched also, although I know it doesn’t matter at hunting distances.
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OK guys, I cleaned up the thread, it got a little more out of hand than I thought. Some have also been here a long time and *come to the defense* of the site if they perceive a threat as we have had countless threats over the years. I cleaned those up as well.
My personal issue is growing up with red hair, and being picked on. Some redheads become withdrawn and others start punching back. I was the latter, and I am way old enough to know better that to do that so quick when I'm frustrated instead of like I normally do in a rational sincere manner. That makes me a bone head. I need to work on that.
So, in lue of my bone headness, I have apologized and will do so again now. I have reinstated NinjaVanish with a complementary annual Contributing Member subscription. I will now send him an email.
The next time I pull this, which I hope I don't as I'm going to strive not to, ya'll knock me upside the head real quick OK???? :knothead:
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That right there is solid.
Nobody's perfect......and we all have had or will have our moments. What you do after I suppose is what counts the most.
Hope the older I get the less "moments" I have, but no guarantees though I'll try my best. I do know that if I can admit when I screw up, own it and do what it takes to right it, I'll only be a better man for that ....... and anyone who takes that route gets my respect.
:campfire:
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Nice
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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That right there is solid.
Nobody's perfect......and we all have had or will have our moments. What you do after I suppose is what counts the most.
Hope the older I get the less "moments" I have, but no guarantees though I'll try my best. I do know that if I can admit when I screw up, own it and do what it takes to right it, I'll only be a better man for that ....... and anyone who takes that route gets my respect.
:campfire:
Stand up move here, Terry. Thank you.
Glad to be back. Didn't mean to cause such a stir!
:campfire: :archer2:
Y'all wanna talk about broadhead weights now? :biglaugh:
Just to kind of clean up a couple things:
I am admittedly a tinkerer. In some people's eyes, that may be viewed as a waste of time. However, for me, it is my escape. When I'm at my workbench measuring and weighing, there is nothing else on my mind. And I absolutely cherish that time to myself away from a demanding career and the daily grind that is life. I like what I like, and I'm confident in my approach to traditional archery. It's what works for me. I also admire a guy that can not pay attention to all of the little details and still get it done. That's awesome.
I apologized to Terry, and I'll apologize to the board for being a little too much of a smartass in a couple of my responses. Could've chosen some more tactful language, certainly. Hopefully, we can all move forward and have some productive conversations!
-Happy hunting! (however you choose to do so)
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We all get our "Irish" up, from time to time.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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Find a VPA that strikes your fancy and give em a try . My experience has been that they have very tight tolerances on weights.... And they are as tough as anything I have ever used.....Good luck .We all look at things a little different , nothing wrong with that....
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Find a VPA that strikes your fancy and give em a try . My experience has been that they have very tight tolerances on weights.... And they are as tough as anything I have ever used.....Good luck .We all look at things a little different , nothing wrong with that....
Love VPAs. You can find a couple of my VPA kills in the "Broadheads and the holes they leave" thread. :archer2:
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In regard to weight tolerances....
This might have already been mentioned, but most of the heads that are sold to be hand sharpened over and over, come in 10 grains or so heavy. I called a VERY well known broadhead manufacturer and they explained that they sell them heavy because every time a person sharpens it it loses a few grains. In that manner, every time you sharpen it, you are getting closer to the target weight.... as opposed to getting further away from it. (The latter assuming it came in "on the nose" for the advertised weight) Of course, some manufacturers don't have the QC that others do, which is another matter entirely.
NV, we are probably a lot a like as I'm just a tinkerer and I love putting arrows together. I'm likely more of an arrow guy than a bow guy. I approach arrow tuning like cutting a piece of meat. You can dissect with either a meat clever or a scalpel...both get the job done; but the latter makes a little better job of it.
Good to see you back. All is good in the Trad Gang kingdom. Now excuse me as I feeling the need to go sing a couple of verses of Kumbaya :biglaugh:
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Find a VPA that strikes your fancy and give em a try . My experience has been that they have very tight tolerances on weights.... And they are as tough as anything I have ever used.....Good luck .We all look at things a little different , nothing wrong with that....
Love VPAs. You can find a couple of my VPA kills in the "Broadheads and the holes they leave" thread. :archer2:
Plus 1 for VPA! The 160 gr glue on has taken the front seat as my favorite these days. As mentioned, very tight tolerance to weight ......almost dead on! I epoxy them to steel adapters so that changes things a bit, but the heads are consistent!
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In regard to weight tolerances....
This might have already been mentioned, but most of the heads that are sold to be hand sharpened over and over, come in 10 grains or so heavy. I called a VERY well known broadhead manufacturer and they explained that they sell them heavy because every time a person sharpens it it loses a few grains. In that manner, every time you sharpen it, you are getting closer to the target weight.... as opposed to getting further away from it. (The latter assuming it came in "on the nose" for the advertised weight) Of course, some manufacturers don't have the QC that others do, which is another matter entirely.
NV, we are probably a lot a like as I'm just a tinkerer and I love putting arrows together. I'm likely more of an arrow guy than a bow guy. I approach arrow tuning like cutting a piece of meat. You can dissect with either a meat clever or a scalpel...both get the job done; but the latter makes a little better job of it.
Good to see you back. All is good in the Trad Gang kingdom. Now excuse me as I feeling the need to go sing a couple of verses of Kumbaya :biglaugh:
Well that makes a lot of sense. Since starting this thread, I did get a message from someone that stated his Tigersharks usually come in light. I'm probably just going to make a phone call and have them send me whatever he has around 180. That would fall in line with the VPA's I have in the quiver as well. Worst case, I throw a brass washer on the lighter ones. I'll get it whipped one way or the other, probably with a scalpel :lol:.
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Don't let the fact escape you, that although we are some of the most primal of hunters/killers.....we also carry the biggest hearts.
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I have always wanted to use a tree shark to kill a deer. This makes me want to go glue it on. I think there is one in my shop somewhere. This year I am using 80-85 cedars and they are pretty much at their limit pushing a 135 gr Zwickey Delta. The 175 gr tree shark might be too much. I'll try it. I have one favorite ash shaft that spines about 90. Maybe I'll put it on that one.
Tedd
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Yeah, I'm guilty of being defensive. I've seen the stuff that gone on here over the years. I'll work on not piling on. :campfire:
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Just got 6 Big Jim/VPA 250 grain 1 1/2" heads, four are within 1 grain, two ae 268 and 271, but probably have glue in the Ferrell.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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I've never been much for tuning/ tinkering...
I figure if I do everything right, the bow and arrow, will do it's job.... :archer2:
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Jeeezzz those Battle axles are killers. I used also the Big Games and the Tree Shark glue on with a 100 adapter they come back at 250 after the sharpening and pretty consistent in weight. I use big broadheads for Russian boars in the winter. Most of my bows are in the 55-60# range and 600 plus grains arrows
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Tarz, why didn't you use the 3 Rivers Bare bow shafts on the hog?
Just curious.
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I've never been much for tuning/ tinkering...
I figure if I do everything right, the bow and arrow, will do it's job.... :archer2:
I just shot my new PT LB limbs with the woods I had made for it. However when I ordered the woods I ordered them for a little higher weight but changed my mind on the bow weight as the build came up. I noticed them wagging a bit on the way down range and know they are a bit stiff. Yeah, the fletching straightened them out . But I can't see ever hunting with a shaft that isn't well tuned. Hands down the biggest factor in penetration is a straight flying arrow. So I'll try some heavier points until I get it right or the only place they'll ever get shot it in the yard. I'm not hunting and taking a game shot with an arrow I am not willing to tinker with and make it right. However on wood arrows I'm still learning.
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I have 6 Simmons safari 205 gr. After sharpening once they range from 185 to 193 grains. This will be the first time hunting with them so I can’t comment on performance.
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I have 6 Simmons safari 205 gr. After sharpening once they range from 185 to 193 grains. This will be the first time hunting with them so I can’t comment on performance.
Dang! You either got some lighter heads or used a belt sander I guess?? What did they weigh before sharpening?
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I didn’t weigh them before sharpening. I used a file to establish the initial edge and then finished them with a diamond stick.
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I have 4 Treesharks that has an advertised weight of 165...that come in at 155 to 157. Very new heads with one sharpening. I also got what I believe to be three 165 grains Timbersharks (got them thrown in on a trade so that's why I'm not a 100% sure) that all hit 173 grains.
So if I'm right about the Timbershark identification, the Treesharks come in a little light and the Timbersharks come in a little heavy.
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That Centaur head with the single bevel looked really good. I never got to hunt with it. I shot them all summer one yr. I lost one in foam target and ruined one on a miss. I think the 3rd one is still around somewhere. I misplaced a lot of stuff when I moved. I can't recall the width of the Centaur? 2" I think. Being conservative the penetration in most mediums was at least equal to and most likley better than standard width Zwickeys.
I would buy 2 packs of them right now if they went back into production.
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Tarz, why didn't you use the 3 Rivers Bare bow shafts on the hog?
Just curious.
The were equipped with lighted nocks and I was night hunting. :jumper:
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Is Jim even making those heads any more? Last time I checked I didn’t see the centaurs listed. I wanted to try the short mag.
Ninja, as I mentioned my buddy has half a dozen 175 swamp sharks and all 6 weigh between 182-184 grains. Dave made the tiger sharks 165 due to the fact they were indeed coming in under weight.
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Varmint, he said he would let me know when he made some more.... I'll be talking to him soon and will ask as you are not the only one asking a about them.
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I experienced the same with the simmons broadheads. The ones that were suppose to ne 165grs came in as 158grs and the ones that were suppose to be 175gs came in at 185gs. I want 210grs up front including the insert so using a 50gr brass insert with the 158gr heads works great. With the 185gs I'm 15 grains light. I tried them last year and i saw just a little something with the flight. Really messed with my head when i was hunting and who needs that. This year i'm going to use the gold tip weights to booast it up 15grs for my mental health. lol
As far as not being a tough head maybe they changed the versions because the new heads are tough as nails.
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Mint, if you can tell a difference in flight from 15 grains you are a much better shot than I ever was/will be after 60 years at this game. More power to you.
Many times, when I practice will have arrows of 50-75 grains or more differences. If I do my part, they all go to the same place. Then again, the distances I shoot at are under 20yards and I would need a scale to tell you which is heavier than the other, even tho the arrows don't look the same. And that will include mostly wood but sometimes carbon and a couple sizes of aluminum.
Same thing goes with spine-all these arrows I shoot are not the same 5# spine group-they may be 10-20# differences in spine. But I will say they are all stiffer than my bow weight at least.