Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Pat B on August 10, 2022, 10:54:30 PM
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I started working on my "Elg Bue" today. This is my representation of the 7000 year old Danish bow that Bue posted earlier this year.
I cut out the back and side profiles on the bandsaw and brought it down to the lines with a farrier's rasp, Nicholson #49 and a scraper. Worked up quite a sweat. Now I remember why I prefer winter for bow making but I'll just suffer along with it.
Here's a few pics. Not much to see yet but I'm about ready to start reducing the limbs and get them bending.
(https://i.imgur.com/CfhgthE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VBdP46H.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Am3xFvH.jpg)
Mark posted this drawing and it's what I was using for a model. I think he got the dimensions from what Bue posted.
(https://i.imgur.com/8IcbwuW.jpg)
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Looking nice Pat
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Lookin' good there Pat. Git 'er built!
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Elm ? How long are you going? watching :thumbsup:
I did all the math and Did a drawing
The short one is the 7000
(https://i.imgur.com/4dQZ7JC.jpg)
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This stave is 65.5" and I'm using every bit of it. I will sinew back the working limbs and through the handle with a slightly bendy handle at full draw.
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This stave is 65.5" and I'm using every bit of it. I will sinew back the working limbs and through the handle with a slightly bendy handle at full draw.
James Parker said it take a full year for the sinew to dry on his Horn Bows.
What are your thought on this?
I know you don't wait that long but do your bows gain any pounds after a year has passed from your original pounds ?
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Nice... Enjoy your Build...
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Mark, you can watch James' horn bows curl up from month to month as the sinew cures, eventually having the tips cross over the back of the bow. I have noticed sinew backed bows increase in weight over a one or two year period. Around here, where the humidity is high during the summer the ones I've made have softened up during the summer but increased back as the air dries during the winter. It will probably be late fall or winter before I add the sinew to this bow just because it works out better then. And I let them cure out for a few months before I strain them. Even then the weight will increase over a year or two.
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Interesting :thumbsup:
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Had no idea sinew took that long to dry!
Woner how the NW coast NAs dealt with it.
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Some of the Chinese horn bows cured for 100 years or more. Whether that was overkill of not you'd have to ask the Chinese.
I often wondered about the sinew backed paddle bows of the NW being it's so wet there too. They probably dried/cured them around the smoke hole of their shelters. The creosote from the smoke probably helped with the waterproofing also.
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Interesting Pat. Some of my thoughts on sinew backing. When the first layer is on I usually lay the next layer within a few days staggering the ends. If longer I wipe the first layer with a clean cloth and warm water before laying the next layer. When drying in a heated room, using a pin moisture meter the glue sinew matrix is as dry as the belly of the stave, in a couple of weeks. But the sinew will cure and strenghten for a long time. Some years ago I made a 50 pound sinew backed bow for a friend. After a few years he felt the bow had become too heavy so he asked if I could adjust it. When I weighted the bow I found it had gained several pounds. When a bow have cured a month or two I will finish it, see no reason to wait for years.
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Drying time on sinewed bows is affected by the glue you use -- pure hide glue versus a mixture of hide and fish glue, and the species from which the hide and fish glue were obtained. It's not the sinew that takes time to dry (unless you didn't de-grease it properly), it's the glue. I know a number of hornbow makers and only 1 or 2 of them cure their bows for more than a few months.
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Bue, I do similar to what you do with sinew backed bows although I don't have a moisture meter. I let the first layer dry over night or just enough to clearly see the dried sinew then fill in and voids or thin areas. Once the sinewing is done I let the bow rest a month or so before releasing it from the back bracing. I usually do the sinewing in the winter when the air id drier and our wood stove keeps the R/H in our house low.
It's been so humid lately I can only work an hour or 2 before I'm totally soaked with sweat. We have had rain for the last 15 days with anywhere from as little as .01" to the 4.06" we got yesterday.
More to come...
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First straightening to get things basically aligned. I'm sure there will be more.
(https://i.imgur.com/6YMDVMu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QGVycq6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kShiQs2.jpg)
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New "bue" ??
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From Pats first post.
I started working on my "Elg Bue" today. This is my representation of the 7000 year old Danish bow that Bue posted earlier this year.
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Old bue
https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=178571.0
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Ok, got it. Bue is Norweigan for Bow. But's what's a ELG?
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Elg is Norwegian for moose. The sinew Bue sent me was Norwegian moose.
I think elk is a European name for moose. Our "elk" are wapiti but early settlers mistakenly called them elk.
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The initial straightening went well plus I added a little bit of back set.
More to come...
(https://i.imgur.com/zfKMwRT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GKyBwDD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vdZYLj4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WiQQPXM.jpg)
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Elg is Norwegian for moose. The sinew Bue sent me was Norwegian moose.
I think elk is a European name for moose. Our "elk" are wapiti but early settlers mistakenly called them elk.
Wapiti, Did not know that :dunno:
We don't have Antelope in the USA, they are Pronghorn.
Antelope are in Africa :thumbsup:
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What we in the States call Moose, the rest of the world call Elk. Our Elk are properly called Wapiti and are closely related to the Red Deer or Red Stag of Europe, Asia and Africa.
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I prefer the metric system.
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I got her on the long string today. You can see she needs work. The limb on the left is stronger so I need to get that down closer to the right limb.
The black on the levers was to help me visualize the working limbs without the distraction of the stiffer levers.
(https://i.imgur.com/KgA0Dso.jpg)
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Coming along :thumbsup:
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I got a little more done today. Got the limbs a bit more even...
(https://i.imgur.com/XqMzT4E.jpg)
...by using Eric Krewson's "Tillering Gizmo"...
(https://i.imgur.com/CPCL85f.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CsyLKa8.jpg)
For those not familiar with this very cool and effective tool it works by leaving pencil marks where the limbs are not bending enough...
(https://i.imgur.com/NOZEDoz.jpg)
...and you can see where the pencil lines are not even everywhere. This gizmo also shows you if there is a twist in the limb or the scraping is not done evenly...
(https://i.imgur.com/OzgDUaz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PlXWL2s.jpg)
...more to come...
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Interesting idea with the black on the levers... Let us know how that works out for you...
Speaking of distractions I am a big fan of uncluttered and one solid color backrounds... It does not seem like much but those lines on the cinder blocks could throw you off... I like painting a piece of plywood flat white and hang it on the wall behind the bow...
Looks like she is coming along nice...
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Blacking out the levers sure did make it easier to see only how the working limbs were bending. I wasn't sure it would work but I'll say it works great.
I've been using that wall for many years(30) but lately I have been thinking about putting a background with vertical and horizontal lines on it at 2" increments. Now I just need to do it. :bigsmyl:
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:thumbsup:
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She's sitting at 41#@26" now and the tiller looks pretty good. Today I heat treated the belly on one limb and added a little reflex too...
(https://i.imgur.com/Acixbri.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gvkJ7hR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7z39XST.jpg)
...more to come...
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My hat is off to you guys who make selfbows!! :thumbsup:
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My hat is off to you guys who make selfbows!! :thumbsup:
Some people put sinew on the back and Horn on the belly. :notworthy:
I have enough trouble just tillering :banghead:
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I have horn but I'm not ready to tackle that as of yet.
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Nice to see your progress Pat. It’s looking good to my eye. Never having built a self bow, I have much respect for those that do. :clapper:
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I heat treated the other limb this morning and brought this limb into alignment. It was offset a bit just at and beyond the fade. I'll let her rest a day before releasing the clamps. We've had so much rain lately I'm not worried about rehydration.
...more to come...
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I got the other limb heat treated and did a little lateral straightening to boot...
(https://i.imgur.com/6NC6vru.jpg?1)
Then reflexed and heat treated the outer working portion of the limb after the inner limb cooled. I also brought the working limb and lever in line across and through the limb...
(https://i.imgur.com/sYhgkWg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mK6nSVi.jpg?1)
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Awesome :)
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I got most of the heat bending and straightening done. Will probably be a bit more tweaking to do but not now. I have to say, elm sure reacts well to heat corrections. In a few days I'll recheck the tiller, make adjustments then it will be a while before I start adding the sinew. Here is the end results of the last few days work...
(https://i.imgur.com/2M5H83r.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7W59bFM.jpg?1)
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This is very cool! Nice to see someone making real bows.
If this is the same Pat B I have seen all over some other sites, then this is a master class :notworthy:
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Buggs, I'm on here and on PA but that's all. Thanks for the kind words. :thumbsup:
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I thought I remembered seeing you on the mysteriously disappeared POA.
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Looking good pat
How wide at the widest place are the limbs?
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Between 1 3/4" and 2". I started out at 2" but have reduced the width a bit truing up the sides.
Buggs, POA?
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:thumbsup:
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I got off my boney butt and did some more work on this bow. I did a little tillering to get both limbs fairly even for now. Then I clamped the bow to a one limb reflex form to heat treat again and do some lateral adjustment at the same time. I'll try to get to the other limb tomorrow or the next day. Here are a few pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/mtVkKSG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aogRX9g.jpg)
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:bigsmyl:
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Looking good Pat.
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I'm slow but at least I'm unpredictable. :thumbsup:
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I did work the other limb this morning, adding reflex, tempering and aligning.
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After taking bue off of the form I tweaked the tiller a but more...
(https://i.imgur.com/8oAw2n1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/S2SJ6gN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NovtV57.jpg)
then put her back of another reflex form and gave the belly a good heat treating and made slight lateral adjustments...
(https://i.imgur.com/NCZletP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qUOfDQx.jpg)
After I do the other limb she'll be ready for adding the sinew backing. Once the sinew dries well I'll tweak the tipper a bit more and do a final shaping on the tips. Typically my sinew process takes a few months but I will document that process as well.
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I need to learn how to do sinew :tongue:
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I am still learning how to tiller a wood bow. My last tri-lam became a bi-lam.
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I took the advice of a PA member and re-tempered each limb on the reflex form to a darker color and did a little lateral adjusting. Here is what she looks like right off the form after a day or two of cooling.
(https://i.imgur.com/hFdNKqz.jpg)
We've been having a bit of wet weather over the last few days with a few more to come and I don't want to strain her under these wet conditions. Once it dries out I'll start prepping for adding the sinew.
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Looks like you got excellent symmetry with the retempering :thumbsup:
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Yep :thumbsup:
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OK guys, believe it or not I'm back working on ElgBue. I clamped the bow on the tiller tree with a long string to see how she bends now that the sinew has had a chance to dry...
(https://i.imgur.com/CsdaiWR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/B7atQdQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/N0Mt5Hy.jpg)
...and after a scrape here and there to try to even out the limbs...
(https://i.imgur.com/5JFdFES.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Mpfi0Gg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dYyu6Qb.jpg)
I'm hoping to get her braced so I can really judge the bend and draw weight but until then that's all I have for now.
Stay tuned!
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Really nice look unbraced Pat
You got it going on :thumbsup:
Is that 2 or 3 your going to bring to the Classic?? :thumbsup:
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Two new ones and a couple of older bows.
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I need to brace this bow so I can see how the string tracks and get a real idea about the tiller. Yesterday I got a call from Brad Smith. Brad is a sinew backed bow enthusiasts and has taken an interest in this build. He asked me how I planned to brace the bow with this much reflex then suggested temporary nocks. He said what he does is tie a piece of leather below the nocks and use a tiller string at those temporary nocks to bend the bow while putting a string on the regular nocks...so that's what I did...
(https://i.imgur.com/UNgSsak.jpg)
...then I tied on a para cord tiller string using bowyers knots. This worked great but once I got the string on I could tell the string was tracking to the left of the bow.
(https://i.imgur.com/HJZAWbW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Sbi3AaN.jpg)
now I'll go back and shape the tips and do some heat correcting on the levers to get the string to line up. More to come.
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:clapper:
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I just low braced the bow(used push/pull) and put it in the tree with the bow scale. She pulled 33#@22" so that works out to about 45#@26" maybe a bit less. I still have a little adjusting to do but the levers are long enough I might pike it an inch or so on each limb which will bring the weight up some. She does seem to draw pretty smoothly.
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:notworthy: That is nice to watch! Incredible skill :clapper:
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Very good, getting there.
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Almost there! Should be ready for finish work soon. :thumbsup:
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Well, I'm having trouble with the lateral stability. She keeps wanting to pull one way, I'll move the lever over with heat and she wants to go the other way. I need to let it cool again and see where we are.
I may reduce the length of the levers and see if I can make that work.
I may have gotten too complicated with this simple design. :saywhat:
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I hit a bump in the road on this bow. It developed a hinge at the fade for one of the the lever. :knothead: :smileystooges: :banghead:
The body of the bow, the sinewed area is still in good shape but I want to figure out, over the next few days where to go from here. My options are to add an underlay at the lever fades on both limbs and retiller or shorten the levers all together and make it a short, 50" straight limb sinew backed bow.
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I've decided to go with a patch. I have a thin piece of osage but I didn't want the contrast and I think it would be too stiff. My next option was a thin piece of ERC but I didn't want to chance that. Then I picked up a piece of the elm from this bow, sawed a thin piece out and flattened and smoother it with the belt sander.
My next decision was glue. Should I use some Unibond Roy sent me or TBIII. I went with the TBIII because I wanted to glue it up at room temp. I was afraid of introducing heat for curing with the hide glue/sinew backing.
I ground the patch flat then ground the area to be patched making sure I took just enough off to get a flat surface and made sure the patch and patch area glue surfaces mated well. I buttered both glue surfaces with TBIII and with a stiff backing over the patch I clamped with spring clamps. I'll give it at least until tomorrow for the glue to set then I'll see what I've got. After that I'll re-shape the patched area and see if it worked.
(https://i.imgur.com/cQgWqEO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XhyzCWq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UqmmGPP.jpg)
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This kind of thing is so cool to see. I really appreciate you taking the time to post both the good and the bad. It's almost more valuable to see the decision making and thought process that goes into fixing problems than it is to see a build process that goes perfectly smooth.
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Unibond will set at room temperature. Just not as fast as Titebond.
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Jeremy, if you are going to build wood bows sometimes you have to consider all possibilities and solutions. I've done similar things when I had a bow fret badly on the belly. I ground down the belly and added a new belly lam making what would be smoker wood into a very usable, good shooting bow. I've not done it on a small scale like this but there is no reason for it not to work if I did my part and continue to do my part correctly.
"Passing it on" is where I got my bow building knowledge from others so I'm just passing it on. With digital photography it's pretty simple to do these days. :thumbsup:
I know Unibond will set at 70 degrees but our house isn't at 70 degrees mostly this time of year. I know the TBIII will work so I went with that.
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I am sure you can do it Pat. Are you going to sinew wrap the patch?
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I wasn't planning on it Bue but that will depend on how it turns out. Other similar patches I've seen were now wrapped but I'll wait and see. It's not out of the question.
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Bue, I will have a wrap at the tip end of the patch. It ended up near where the rawhide ended and I had planned a wrap there.
I removed the clamps and exposed the patch...
(https://i.imgur.com/PpqNrTw.jpg)
then took the bow down to my shop to reduce the patch and blend it into the limb. I started with a rasp working along the edges to shape the patch to the outline of the limb...
(https://i.imgur.com/M8MmFkD.jpg)
then started reducing the patch thickness working from inside to out as not to snag and rip up the patch...
(https://i.imgur.com/G9sI6GB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aOzq4uM.jpg)
once I got the patch reduced I started using a scraper for fine tuning. no pics of that but here are the results...
(https://i.imgur.com/JuqWger.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/a6zYnVN.jpg)
Now, I'll wait another 24 hours to allow any moisture from the glue to evaporate before straining the bow on the test flight. More to come...
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:thumbsup:
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I shaped the patch and retillered the bow. Got her on the tree out to 26" then decided to put a few arrows through her. She is pulling just over 45#@26" and is pretty snappy shooter. She's about 61" t/t. After 25 arrows the unbraced reflex is about 2 1/2" and after relaxing she holds 3 1/2". Here is the full draw pic on the tree...
(https://i.imgur.com/SH72ScJ.jpg)
I still need to shape the handle and tips and add the finishing touches.
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Awesome pat
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Pat that is a fine save! Nice work. I am wondering, when you build a self bow like this do you tiller to the center of the bow?
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Thanks, Mark.
Joel, most of the strain on a bow's limb is at the fades because of the leverage of the limbs so tillering from mid limb out first then bringing the bend back into the fades at the handle is what I try to do.
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Pat that is a fine save! Nice work. I am wondering, when you build a self bow like this do you tiller to the center of the bow?
Like pat said
When you start working to get the fades bending some, the mid limb out gets stiffer, so more scraping all the way out.
So a continuous tiller check and scraping
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Continuous tiller checks and plenty of exercising with each wood removal is critical to maintain proper tiller. The exercising helps to register the results of the wood removal. I pull the bow on the tree about 20 or so times after each scraping but never beyond the results of the tillering. Once braced for the first time I like to keep the bow braced for a while(called sweating). As a result shooting the bow in doesn't drop the weight like it would without exercising and sweating. It makes it easier to maintain the targeted draw weight.
I'll try to get the tips finished, any decorating done and the Tru-Oil coats applied soon then I'll post the "finished" bow pics.
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Thanks for the info guys. Self bows are intriguing. What I am wondering but didn’t say well, is do you locate the center of the riser at the center of bow overall or do you locate the arrow pass at the center of the bow?
I look forward to seeing your finished bow Pat.
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Joel, the way I learned to set up a selfbow was to make the lower limb slightly longer than the upper limb. I'd set the arrow pass 1 1/4" above center and the bottom of the handle at 2 3/4" below center for a 4" handle. This will make an asymmetrical bow. Now, however I prefer a symmetrical bow with the center of the handle the center of the bow. For me, it's easier to see proper tiller this way. It really doesn't matter as long as the tiller is right.
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Pat-Thanks for the explanation. That explains the differences I have seen in various self bows while on the tiller tree.
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Looking awesome Pat, cant wait to see it once you've got it finished!
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Getting down to the nitty gritty now. I started with 2 applications of Tru-Oil on the handle area. I usually do the handle area first so when I put Tru-Oil on the limbs I can balance the bow on the handle so the finish can dry. Once the handle has dried for a day it's time to add the handle wrap. I decided to go with brain tanned leather for this.
This is a technique I learned somewhere(?). I make 3 or 4 wraps of masking tape around the area where the handle will go then cut down the center of the back...
(https://i.imgur.com/4NBaoy1.jpg)
This will be the pattern for the handle wrap. I lay the tape on the brain tanned leather and mark it out, leaving some extra at the top for a rolled arrow shelf...
(https://i.imgur.com/Ob8pDre.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xLnqN4Z.jpg)
I added glue to the inside of the upper handle and rolled it 2 times. I also did a single roll at the bottom to finish that off neatly. I used an awl to put stitching holes on the wrap at the center of the back and stitched it with hemp cord...
(https://i.imgur.com/jkbjM8P.jpg)
...and here is the finished handle wrap with her name, ELG BUE, written in the rune alphabet...
(https://i.imgur.com/etgDmTV.jpg)
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Very nice Pat and using masking tape as a template was a good idea.
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Nice pat
I must try the double and single roll :thumbsup:
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I got 2 more coats of Tru-Oil on today. I'll give it another day and do a quick spray of satin poly. Then take some glamour shots. :thumbsup:
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Awesome build sir! :thumbsup:
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Very nice Pat.
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Done and done!!! :saywhat:
Here are the final pics of Elg Bue...
(https://i.imgur.com/wIEPAe2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5bv43Rc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Pgo6HII.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dfJgzEC.jpg)
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Nice! The grain of that elm looks really pretty in that close-up shot, I've never worked with it
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Nicely done Pat ! :archer2:
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Thanks guys.
I've only worked with elm a few times but I have been impressed every time, both for sinew backed and selfbows. And, elm does have very nice grain.
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Nice pat :thumbsup: :archer2:
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Turned out very good Pat.
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I put another 25 arrows through her this morning. I think she's my fastest bow to date. After unbracing she is holding
2 1/4" of reflex...
(https://i.imgur.com/Upn9ELK.jpg)
Here she is relaxed. Here she holds 3 1/4" of reflex...
(https://i.imgur.com/m72Unrb.jpg)
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That’s a fine looking bow Pat. I like the way the green tips sorta merge with the forest background. Thanks for sharing your process. :thumbsup:
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Nice and some serious reflex. Them Norwegian moose have some strong legs and tendons wading through the deep snow. That Elm must be good too and all this combined with an excellent bowmaker gives results.
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Thanks to you, Bue for the design and the elg sinew. It's been a fun project.
Thanks, Joel. :thumbsup:
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Well, here is the completed set...
(https://i.imgur.com/65ubloK.jpg)
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Very nice Pat , wow that’s got soul :clapper: