Post by: Buggs on June 17, 2022, 08:40:38 AM
Seems to be a lot of discussion about design here. Do any here give credence to material choice?
Grain orientation, wood selection other that cosmetic effects?
Post by: mmattockx on June 17, 2022, 11:16:45 AM
Mark
Post by: Mad Max on June 17, 2022, 11:37:54 AM
For the riser you want vertical grain back to belly
I use Osage Specific Gravity and Janka Hardness chart as my guide
I want the wood I pick to be as hard or harder than Osage
https://www.bellforestproducts.com/exotic-wood/
Post by: Buggs on June 17, 2022, 02:16:16 PM
Maple is good, all around wood. I'm surprised more folks don't use Walnut. It's a great limb wood. It's nearly as strong and hard as Maple, plus it's more elastic and weighs less.
Post by: Mad Max on June 17, 2022, 03:22:26 PM
I've always worked from the premise that the back lams should be flat grain, except Bamboo, and belly lams can go either way depending on the species, but generally edge grain.
Maple is good, all around wood. I'm surprised more folks don't use Walnut. It's a great limb wood. It's nearly as strong and hard as Maple, plus it's more elastic and weighs less.
Where did you learn you Information from?
Some people use walnut but what Kind :dunno: Hard Rock Maple (Vertical) is a really good Lam but when I cut them into lams they curve over night, Boo flooring stays straight for me :thumbsup:
Post by: kennym on June 17, 2022, 03:36:46 PM
Aboo is very repeatable in bow weight which I like.
Post by: Buggs on June 17, 2022, 04:46:52 PM
Where did you learn you Information from?
Some people use walnut but what Kind :dunno: Hard Rock Maple (Vertical) is a really good Lam but when I cut them into lams they curve over night, Boo flooring stays straight for me :thumbsup:
The Internet
In reality just about everything I have read in the past is accessible online, if you can find it!
I have accumulated my info from reading books on wood engineering and I collect and read old archery texts.
I did not prepare a bibliography, so you will need to give me a couple days if you need references. ;)
Actually thats not a bad idea considering how much anecdotal and second hand info is slung around these days.
Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on June 17, 2022, 06:27:40 PM
The only time I had a piece curl was when it was cut from wood not quite dry. Had one I cut at 12 and it curled some. Dried the rest of the piece in my heat box on about 100 for several days and it was around 8. Did not curl then.
Just my limited experience, but I will try anything!
Post by: onetone on June 17, 2022, 07:37:10 PM
Post by: Mad Max on June 17, 2022, 07:48:08 PM
Hillbilly I start with 8/4 wide and it moves left or right
Post by: Kirkll on June 17, 2022, 08:28:46 PM
We used to make home made action wood from walnut amd Rock hard maple for hot rods. Good stuff, not cost effective.
But..... You can use what ever ya want, in what ever orientation .... Everyone knows cores don't matter. :saywhat: :saywhat: ;) :tongue: Kirk
Post by: Longcruise on June 17, 2022, 08:54:36 PM
I've used MO walnut in a few, it is lighter in weight but also makes a lighter draw weight, so may be a draw on that. It seems a little quieter than other lams when shot, but that may have been just the bow .
Aboo is very repeatable in bow weight which I like.
Do you cut your actionboo from flooring or...?
Post by: Kirkll on June 17, 2022, 09:24:43 PM
Post by: Bvas on June 18, 2022, 02:12:58 AM
I’ve also used black locust in a couple. I think it performs very similar to maple, maple just a little softer.
Post by: Shredd on June 18, 2022, 11:03:49 AM
Post by: Crooked Stic on June 18, 2022, 09:30:57 PM
A d right now boo easier to get
Post by: onetone on June 18, 2022, 10:32:51 PM
Maple is good, all around wood. I'm surprised more folks don't use Walnut. It's a great limb wood. It's nearly as strong and hard as Maple, plus it's more elastic and weighs less.
It sounds like you have used walnut as limb cores and been satisfied with the results? I have a bunch of American Black Walnut I’d like to use for something. For limb cores I use mostly hard maple and boo, both A and natch. Have used red elm, but it soaks up more epoxy adding weight to a limb.
Post by: Shredd on June 18, 2022, 11:07:56 PM
Post by: Crooked Stic on June 19, 2022, 06:49:25 AM
Post by: Buggs on June 19, 2022, 09:31:40 AM
I have also used soft Maple, Birch, Alder, Butternut, Ornamental Juniper, Sweetgum, etc.....
I have a friend who is an Arborist and gifts me random chunks of wood.
Post by: jrstegner on June 19, 2022, 03:52:35 PM
Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on June 19, 2022, 05:02:45 PM
As a new bowyer, but not new to wood and woodworking, a lot is going to depend on design and how much weight you intend for the bow to be. What I might do on a riser for a 30 lb bow, I would not do on a 50+ pound bow.
When I hear of failures, I always want to know all the details. Was it the wood or the craftman's fault.
I love trying new things and I am sure some.of them will not work and some one that has been there before could have predicted it. I still probably would have tried it though...
Post by: Buggs on June 19, 2022, 05:50:19 PM
It sure is nice wood to work with.
Found an old pic. Used more Cherry than I remembered!
Post by: onetone on June 20, 2022, 10:36:44 AM
Post by: Kirkll on June 20, 2022, 12:04:31 PM
I often wonder if these various different soft domestic hardwoods and fruitwoods are going to hold up for 60-70 years. We know the rock hard maple will, and I’d bet good money on high quality bamboo longevity.
I’ve got a bunch of lams I should sell to you guys that are still tinkering with different core woods. I’ve pretty much dialed in my tried and true combos because I want my bows out lasting my grand kids.
Old growth Douglas Fir makes an incredible core too. I have quite a few bows out there still shooting great with Doug Fir lams that are 10-12 years old. It’s very similar to Yew wood properties, only less oily, and lighter weight.
Kirk
Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on June 20, 2022, 01:03:55 PM
When glued up, what effect does flat sawn have on lams? I know in self bows you have to chase the growth ring, but in glued up lams, what does it do?
I have been using vertical grain in my lams and picking the tightest grain lumber I can find.
Post by: Kirkll on June 20, 2022, 03:26:27 PM
The part about bamboo i like is it's homogeneous nature, hardness, and tensile strength. Problem is.... Finding high quality moso bamboo flooring, or even stair tread material in laminated vertical grain configuration is tough to do any more. When Higuera Hardwoods quit making it, i switched to a totally different product i'm using now. All bamboo is not created equal. Where it comes from and how its treated for insects and manufactured in to finished material makes a huge difference. Some of that crap is pretty limp.
I've still got a bunch of the vertical grain natural color that was not carbonized and heat treated. Some guys like it, but i don't because it doesn't have the same strength or deflection qualities as the heat treated "Amber colored "bamboo. I use it for accent lines in risers, mosaics, and overlays sometimes, but wont use it in my limbs any more personally.
If somebody is interested in buying some of this natural vertical grain stuff please send me a PM.
Kirk
Post by: Buggs on June 20, 2022, 03:58:11 PM
Its not the same as fruit Cherry
Post by: Buggs on June 20, 2022, 04:42:22 PM
Is that the Traditional Bowyer’sBible, or something else?
Yes, the TBB
It has to be #1 or #2, in one of the sections by Tim Baker
Post by: Mad Max on June 20, 2022, 05:23:37 PM
The vertical straight grain wood gives better limb stability qualities that flat grain material in your core stock. Do some deflection tests with it some time and see for yourself. veneers are not an issue at .025 or less.
I've still got a bunch of the vertical grain natural color that was not carbonized and heat treated. Some guys like it, but i don't because it doesn't have the same strength or deflection qualities as the heat treated "Amber colored "bamboo. I use it for accent lines in risers, mosaics, and overlays sometimes, but wont use it in my limbs any more personally.
Kirk
In BBB's Bamboo back and belly the only one to be heat treated is the belly.
Having said that, I agree heat treated boo for lams in a glass bow is better. :thumbsup:
Do you think the stranded boo you are using is better than the vertical and why?
Post by: Buggs on June 20, 2022, 07:22:39 PM
I know it's a lot more work to process, and maybe not as stout as the laminated flooring?
Post by: kennym on June 20, 2022, 08:00:08 PM
Is there some reason you guy's don't use natural Bamboo and mill it to spec?
I know it's a lot more work to process, and maybe not as stout as the laminated flooring?
I bought some once and milled lams from it. Too much labor cost to be able to sell the lams, if I was doing a bow here and there for myself I might think about it more...
Post by: Kirkll on June 20, 2022, 09:17:40 PM
The vertical straight grain wood gives better limb stability qualities that flat grain material in your core stock. Do some deflection tests with it some time and see for yourself. veneers are not an issue at .025 or less.
I've still got a bunch of the vertical grain natural color that was not carbonized and heat treated. Some guys like it, but i don't because it doesn't have the same strength or deflection qualities as the heat treated "Amber colored "bamboo. I use it for accent lines in risers, mosaics, and overlays sometimes, but wont use it in my limbs any more personally.
Kirk
In BBB's Bamboo back and belly the only one to be heat treated is the belly.
Having said that, I agree heat treated boo for lams in a glass bow is better. :thumbsup:
Do you think the stranded boo you are using is better than the vertical and why?
I would stay with the vertical grain laminated material if i could still get the amber carbonized heat treated material in a moso bamboo that i trusted. It was good stuff. But a lot of this stuff out there is garbage.
My opinion comes from years of remodeling homes and replacing bamboo floors that didn't hold up well at all with Higuera bamboo. This isn't just a personal preference.... I'm talking real time experience with this cheap lumber liquidator crap they call flooring. There is a good reason its getting hard to find. I put the good stuff in a Family beach cabin that had a lot of abuse for many years, and it held up well with no cupping or delamination. That's why i used it exclusively for my bows.
This stranded material i'm using now is heat treated and pressed together with an epoxy resin and has the highest janka rating for hardness there is right now. It has good defection properties and the same , if not a little better defection rate as the vertical grain material and excellent homogeneous tensile strength. It probably has better compression strength too due to the resin vs fiber strand ratio. But honestly... i've never tested the compression.
The only down side to it is that the mass weight is a bit higher than the action boo was, and i'm hesitant to use it as a soul lamination in a D shape limb design like i would the vertical grain action boo. I just stick to maple on the belly side for compression, and i know that's going to hold up well. I haven't seen any difference in my bow performance at all using it either.
this is what i'm using.
https://www.calibamboo.com/product-java-fossilized-solid-bamboo-flooring-7006003801.html
Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on June 20, 2022, 10:06:20 PM