Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: boucheed on June 14, 2022, 04:40:11 PM
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Hello everyone I am new here and have a couple questions. First I just bought the black hunter longbow 45#. I have a 57” Flemish twist b55 string on it and have been bare shaft tuning my black eagle 400 spine vintage bare shafts they have 100 gn inserts and 200 gn points and they are flying straight cut down to 30.25”. My problem is my nock on impact is high. I am running a top and bottom nocking point and shooting 3 under at 10 yards. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Dan
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Is your target at eye level? If it's lower, you're shooting down at it at 10 yards and the nock will be high.
If that's not it, you may need to try different nock point heights. How high is your nock point now?
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Even at 30.25" the 400 spine with 300gr tip sounds stiff for a 45#@28" bow unless riser is cut past center.
If getting nock high lower nock point if it gets worse your bouncing shaft off shelf so need to raise it. Certain people with there specific form have a hard time eliminating a little nock high according to Beck from black widow bows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSJ6-HjPMTM
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Orion,
thank you for the reply, my target is below eye level so that makes some sense. I dont have a bow square but I am approximately 5/8" high right now
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katman,
I don't understand, how do i know if the riser is cut past center (sorry newby). I will watch the video and see if I have any more questions thanks for the reply.
Dan
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The Black Hunter longbow uses the same riser as the Black Hunter recurve, and is cut past center (unless they have come up with a one-piece longbow that I don't know about).
For future reference, to determine the center cut of a bow, prop it against something handy, like the tail gate of a pickup truck, where you can stand behind it. Close one eye and move back and forth until the string bisects the centerline of the bow. If there is no convenient mark on the centerline, you can put a piece of masking tape on the limb and measure where the centerline is with a ruler and put a mark there on the tape. With the string bisecting the centerline of the bow, notice where it appears to be with respect to the strike plate. If it is outside the strike plate, the bow is cut past center; if it is inside the strike plate, the bow is not cut past center.
To take it one step further, put an arrow on the string and then stand in the same position as before. With the string centered on your mark, the tip of the arrow should lie just outside the centerline of the bow. Since the strike plate is not adjustable on most of the bows we shoot, there is only one thing you can do, and that is to put a thicker strike plate on the bow if the tip of the arrow is not outside of center. Since that hardly ever happens, this is really just something to check since your bow is already in the right position to do it, unless you have a metal riser bow bow that is cut way past center, which the Black Hunter is not.
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b: A nock point of 5/8-inch is about mid-range for a 3-under shooter. If the arrow isn't kicking (porpoising) as it leaves the bow and if you're getting good arrow flight, I suspect the fact that your target is lower than eye level is the reason for the nock high arrow in the bale.
Regardless, if the arrow is flying well and hits where you want it, don't worry about where the nock is.
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Great advice from everyone, I would get some foot spray and spray the back 9" of my arrow including feather and shoot it to see if any part of the back end of the arrow is hitting the arrow rest, I would also shoot a bare shaft to see what the arrow is doing in flight, Now I don't shoot with that much weight up front but I know guys that do and some say little tail high is one of the con of heavy FOC.
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Thank you all for the recommendations. I will keep working on refining things until the nock high calms down. First I will try and film a shot in slow motion to see if the arrow is doing in flight. At 10 yards not sure what i will be able to see. I will also try the foot powder trick. McDave, thank you for the explanation of center cut, i will check that out tonight. Unfortunately BH bows have terrible spec sheets despite them being highly rated online. Ultimately if things work out I will look to get a better quality bow possibly one with an ILF or DAS rizer but as i am new to the trad game i went low budget to start.
Dan
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Honestly, you can tune that bow to shoot pretty dang well. Everyone thinks that a more expensive bow will help them shoot better. That is not the case. Yes bows cut to center or slightly past may be easier to tune, but form is master !
A bow that is not cut to center will have a narrower window of tune and for a beginner with form issues, that can be frustrating.
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One common thing I didn't see mentioned here, if you're shooting split finger (as opposed to 3 under) it's possible to put downward pressure on the arrow with your index finger at full draw. This will cause a rebounding effect upon release and a nock high arrow flight.
They sell finger tabs with a spacer between the middle and index finger, the trick is to really squeeze that spacer at full draw. This keeps your hand rigid and maintains that gap between your fingers for the arrow. It's not the only way to shoot of course, but it helps.
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Honestly, you can tune that bow to shoot pretty dang well. Everyone thinks that a more expensive bow will help them shoot better. That is not the case. Yes bows cut to center or slightly past may be easier to tune, but form is master !
A bow that is not cut to center will have a narrower window of tune and for a beginner with form issues, that can be frustrating.
Nothing wrong with that bow. I owned one and it shot well. It just was more bow than I wanted to shoot so I sold it. But it was accurate and easy to tune.
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Thank you all for the help, more to work on and as I learn from you all I will post back on my results. Weather has been awful so no shooting for the last day or so. Hopefully the weekend will clear up.
Thanks
Dan
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I’m thinking along the same lines as Katman. 400 spine 30” arrow for a 45# bow sounds way too stiff to me. Even if you are cut past center. You may be getting arrow contact on the shelf giving you a false left right tail position.
What kind of draw length are we talking about?
If you have any 500 spine arrows, I would give those a try first. I’ve always had better luck tuning arrows that were a tad bit weak , than too stiff. They are a bit more forgiving to a less than perfect release, or not quite hitting full draw. .02
Kirk
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I agree that 400s could be on the stiff side for his set up, but he does have 300 grains up front. It seems we're assuming (and offering suggestions to fix) problems that the OP doesn't have. The only problem reported in his bare shaft tuning was nock high in the target.
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Easton Axis 500 30" 100 gr insert 200 gr point 42 lbs at 28 in draw Black Hunter longbow split finger 42 lbs. Has shot thru many large Minn. Bucks. Don't notice nock high untill I get over 25 yd shot. Speed is 162 fps. D97 string. Good bow!
Nock 5/8 high.
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High foc can give nock high results when bare shaft tuning.
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I set up a fletched arrow and the plan on shooting that today. Ultimately I could be my form as well. I have never shot three under until now either. I may go get a new tab or glove to see if there is a difference. BTW I am running both a top and bottom nocking point if that makes a difference. Thank you for all the replies
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What is your draw length? Probably not shooting a 45 pound bow unless you have a 28” draw. I would agree as other have said, I’d guess your arrow is bouncing off the shelf if nock high won’t go away. A double nock can eliminate a lot of problems, just make sure it isn’t pinching your arrow nock. Could try cock feather in and see that has any effect.
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I have a 29” draw length.
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There have been a lot of good suggestions, opinions, and options to help you get this straightened out. I would be interested in hearing what solution you find gets you back on track.
Kirk
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Kirk.
I did a couple things today. First I took a page from clay Hayes and put a toothpick under the rest and behind the strike plate. It didn’t reduce my nock low dramatically but it helped. Then I shot a fletched arrow. I was amazed at how true the arrow impacted the target. I was in awe that at 15 yards how much fletched arrows correct issues. I have more testing to do and still plan on trying split finger to see what happens there. More to come.
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YES, there is a reason why we put feather on arrows...to make them fly straight. Kind of like sighting in your rifle with a smooth bore then putting on a rifled barrel.
I never bare shaft tune.
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If your bare shaft, a fletched arrow with a broadhead and your fletched arrows with field points all group together constantly your good to go is how I always figure. I’ve never been able to tune a bare shaft to fly like a dart.
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I set up a fletched arrow and the plan on shooting that today. Ultimately I could be my form as well. I have never shot three under until now either. I may go get a new tab or glove to see if there is a difference. BTW I am running both a top and bottom nocking point if that makes a difference. Thank you for all the replies
It may not apply to your situation. I also run top/bottom nock points on all my set ups, and often shoot 3 under. I switched to using only the tie on string nocks, if you are using crimp on brass variety they can pinch the nock at draw when too close together, which to me does disturb the arrow flight upon release. The tie ons are much more forgiving in this regard.
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I am using tie in nock points as well. Things are working better now.
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Okay so today I went and bought a glove tried to shoot it versus the tab. Found it more difficult than I thought and I don’t think that my Release or form is what it should be. I keep trying to use the tip of my arrow for a point on and I’m struggling to find a spot to aim. Went back to the tab things seem to little easier. How expect to be frustrated with this for sometime as it’s new and not a compound. I also weighed my arrows today weighing in at 620 grains out of a 45 pound bow with my drawling probably more like 48 pounds. Any suggestions on aiming or form would be greatly appreciated thanks again you all are great
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It takes awhile to get your confidence and consistency down as an archer. If you concentrate on form first your groups will come together nicely. Your alignment at anchor is one of the single most important things to work on. Once you get that developed and learn to use back tension instead of holding that draw with your arms alone, you can fine tune your release a lot easier.
Once you learn to relax at full draw and get off the string clean.
You can concentrate on the spot where you want that arrow to go, and not concentrate on aiming at all……. Think about throwing a baseball, or a knife,or even shooting a basketball…. You don’t aim… it just happens… you concentrate on where you want it to go, and that’s it.
instinctive shooting style vs a gap aiming method is misleading. I firmly believe that they both “Become” instinctive as your skill level and confidence increases with good form and practice . The more you think about it, the more you second guess yourself. The so called instinctive shooting is still done with a gap from your point of arrow or arrow shelf to the point of impact, but it’s done with the subconscious mind, as you focus on your spot. You don’t set the gap, or think about it at all, but it’s still there. Just concentrate on getting to anchor, your breathing, and focus on your point of impact….. once that starts happening you’ll never go back to shooting sight pins again.
It’s a very satisfying experience once it comes together for you….. that’s about .05 cents worth of my philosophy.
Kirk
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Thanks Kirk. More work to do. Lol
Dan
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Don't consider it work my friend... consider it an adventure. Trying to self teach all these little things takes much longer if you go it alone. I highly recommend shooting with other experienced archers if at all possible. Sometimes you can find these guys at 3D shoots, and sometimes shooting a target league can help with your form a lot. Having someone at your alignment at full draw helps a lot. You will most likely alter your anchor point as your alignment straightens out, and your draw length typically increases. I started out at 28.5", and ended up with a full 30" draw.
I'm a hunter at heart, and love shooting 3D and even stump shooting, even though its tough on arrows. But.... shooting targets indoors during the winter months with a lighter draw weight bow helped me develop and fine tune my alignment quite a bit. Come spring time and 3D season i ease back into my hunting weight bow again and shoot all summer with my hunting bow with a lot better form.
I do not shoot indoor targets any more, or compete as a target archer. But it was great training that was well worth while. Enjoy the journey..... Kirk
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Kirk x 2. From your initial post, I assumed you had been at this a while. I shouldn't make assumptions. :bigsmyl: