Post by: Shredd on May 25, 2022, 07:17:44 AM
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1081388O/heat-curing-article.pdf?fn=Heat%20Curing%20Article.pdf
Post by: Mad Max on May 25, 2022, 08:16:41 AM
Always use Manufactures recommendations.
Page 2
WOOD LAMINATING / BOWMAKING
https://www.smooth-on.com/tb/files/EA40.pdf
Post by: Shredd on May 25, 2022, 08:52:24 AM
I personally cure my bows at 110 to 120* under the gentle, even heat of an electric blanket... I feel it is easy on the forms and adequate enough for a full solid cure... Reason forms warp is extreme and uneven heat on the form...
Post by: Mad Max on May 25, 2022, 09:29:02 AM
WOOD LAMINATING / BOWMAKING??
Post by: Kirkll on May 25, 2022, 10:02:53 AM
After building a lot of bows and going to using heat strips rather than a hot box, I started using a wee bit more part A to part B to increase the heat resistance of the finished product. Say about 5 parts A to 4 parts B seem to be perfect for me.
After mixing this stuff almost daily for years I got to the point where I can just eye ball the two amounts scooping it out of the can and into a mixing cup. Then I heat the epoxy for 15 seconds in a microwave it before mixing it…. Warming the epoxy makes mixing it thoroughly a lot easier…I do this with a paddle bit in a drill motor.
As I’m mixing it I watch the color of the epoxy closely. It should be completely white after mixing for the best ratio of A to B and have a nice creamy texture. If you have too much part B , it has a yellow tone to the color and the viscosity is different. It’s runny and It has a more translucent look to it too. When that happens, I add a bit more of the part A. If I get too much part A it gets sticky and the viscosity is much thicker.
I know all this doesn’t sound very scientific, but think of a good cook in the kitchen. After many many years your wife, or mom, or your grandma rarely measures anything while cooking, and their recipes are in their heads. Their cooking is excellent too….. their consistency comes with experience.
The other day I was mixing up a cup of smooth on for a limb lay up, and just went through the motions like I always do…. But something was off…. Looked like I had way too much part B and it had a yellow clear look to it. So I added more Part A without reheating it….. but something still looked off to it. It had a Weird consistency and it just wasn’t the same…… So rather than take a chance, I just tossed the cup in the garbage and started again…. I didn’t trust it. Next cup came out fine, so I proceeded.
This stuff is pretty user friendly guys…. But I’d highly recommend a bit more part A than part B on ratio for better heat resistance in the finish product and. Best strength.
Kirk
Post by: kennym on May 25, 2022, 10:16:25 AM
Post by: Shredd on May 25, 2022, 10:34:04 AM
I am sure it has happened...
I use a hair more A also...
Post by: kennym on May 25, 2022, 11:31:04 AM
Post by: Kirkll on May 25, 2022, 12:35:51 PM
The manufacturer states that you get better heat resistance and strength using a bit more resin to hardener rates on EA 40. But using 2:1 is just too much in my opinion. It's a nightmare to spread before it kicks off and gets too sticky. the 5:4 ratio works perfect for me. Smoooooooooth On. :readit:.... And.... heating the product while its cured also helps heat resistance.
I've used a lot of different types of epoxy for different projects. I worked with a LOT of west systems epoxy systems building boats, and some of that stuff is seriously hot stuff. I mean you mix up a cup and let it set in the cup and it will literally start smoking. :scared: :scared: :scared: You can feel the heat as it starts kicking off. That type of epoxy wouldn't work well with bow building at all just for the pot life alone.....
No sense reinventing the wheel here. EA 40 has been an industry standard for quite a few years now. I for one don't plan on experimenting with different stuff when we already have a tried and true product. Kirk
Post by: Jeff tech on May 25, 2022, 06:25:32 PM
The best part about using EA 40 is that it is pretty user friendly. When I first stared building bows I was pretty anal about exact mix proportions to the point of actually mixing by weight vs volume. There is a formula somewhere showing the weight ratio vs volume. It might be right on the can….I always mix a little bit more part a than b never had a problem.
After building a lot of bows and going to using heat strips rather than a hot box, I started using a wee bit more part A to part B to increase the heat resistance of the finished product. Say about 5 parts A to 4 parts B seem to be perfect for me.
After mixing this stuff almost daily for years I got to the point where I can just eye ball the two amounts scooping it out of the can and into a mixing cup. Then I heat the epoxy for 15 seconds in a microwave it before mixing it…. Warming the epoxy makes mixing it thoroughly a lot easier…I do this with a paddle bit in a drill motor.
As I’m mixing it I watch the color of the epoxy closely. It should be completely white after mixing for the best ratio of A to B and have a nice creamy texture. If you have too much part B , it has a yellow tone to the color and the viscosity is different. It’s runny and It has a more translucent look to it too. When that happens, I add a bit more of the part A. If I get too much part A it gets sticky and the viscosity is much thicker.
I know all this doesn’t sound very scientific, but think of a good cook in the kitchen. After many many years your wife, or mom, or your grandma rarely measures anything while cooking, and their recipes are in their heads. Their cooking is excellent too….. their consistency comes with experience.
The other day I was mixing up a cup of smooth on for a limb lay up, and just went through the motions like I always do…. But something was off…. Looked like I had way too much part B and it had a yellow clear look to it. So I added more Part A without reheating it….. but something still looked off to it. It had a Weird consistency and it just wasn’t the same…… So rather than take a chance, I just tossed the cup in the garbage and started again…. I didn’t trust it. Next cup came out fine, so I proceeded.
This stuff is pretty user friendly guys…. But I’d highly recommend a bit more part A than part B on ratio for better heat resistance in the finish product and. Best strength.
Kirk
Post by: Longcruise on May 25, 2022, 11:46:31 PM
That's exactly my strategy. Guarantees there won't be too much hardener. I just eyeball it but really should measure it. Like Kirk says, "consistency".
"I mean you mix up a cup and let it set in the cup and it will literally start smoking."
Talk about dejavu!
Quite a few years ago a guy in New York asked me to build a bow for him with some glue that he wanted to market to bowyers under license. So I says yes and he sent me the glue.
It was West Systems but I don’t recall the designation. I was close to being finished with the layup and notice that the glue, in a red solo cup, was smoking. I was done spreading on the lams and the glue that was spread wasn’t hot (mass??).
So it all went together. By the time it was ready for the oven the cup had been melted down flat. :laughing: I put it in the oven even though it didn't seem to need any help with heat.
So I sent the bow off to the guy along with the advice that it wasn't suitable for bows. About a month later it broke while his brother was stringing it. He never responded to my inquiries about HOW he was stringing it. 😀
Post by: Kirkll on May 26, 2022, 12:44:33 AM
I had a potential customer ask me if i would do the same thing one time and use west system epoxy because he thought it was a superior product.... I said , "No thank you, i'll pass on that one. I use EA 40 smooth on and have good results." He was ok with that..... then he proceeded to tell me exactly how he wanted the limbs laid up, type of lam materials, taper rate, and the whole 9 yards..... I listened to him go on for a few minutes, then finally got a word in edge wise...... I told him that i think the best plan is for him to build it himself, That he had some great ideas for a prototype, and politely declined to take his bow order.
I build custom bows, but i do not alter my limb designs and taper rates, or experiment with different core stock. Riser wood choice, veneers, overlay choices, and other bells and whistles lited on my website are fine. I've even done some custom wood carving and art work on some bows....But ya gotta draw a line somewhere.... There are some customers out there that you just cannot please no matter how good the product is... Thankfully i haven't ran into one of those in quite awhile, but they are out there... Kirk
Post by: OldRawhide42 on May 26, 2022, 09:40:15 AM
Post by: Kirkll on May 26, 2022, 07:42:32 PM
Post by: BigJim on May 27, 2022, 07:31:26 AM
EA 40 is what I am speaking of here..
We also warm our epoxy before mixing. When weighing the glue proportions, that only leaves two possible mistakes.. Not mixing well enough, or not putting enough glue down.. I tell my guys "Mix until you think it is mixed well enough.. then mix longer!"
The EA40 does a fantastic job and is more than strong enough even without heat curing. Like in life, when someone experiences a failure in a glue up, they are eager to throw blame around and too often it is at the glue.. Heat curing or not, the glue will only hold to items if it has enough grip!
I have always maintained that the vast majority of the failures come from using wood that is too wet. Moisture content is the most confusing and least know part of what we do as bowyers. Epoxy does not like moisture and most delams blamed on oily woods is almost certainly moisture related instead. This can't be fixed by more or less hardener or cure temp!
BigJim
Post by: Shredd on May 27, 2022, 08:57:35 AM
Post by: BigJim on May 27, 2022, 09:06:24 AM
I think I understand how to estimate mc as well as most anyone yet am still often left scratching my head! :dunno:
BigJim
I
Post by: Kirkll on May 27, 2022, 09:09:17 AM
I have used the gallon containers in the past. It was more cost effective to buy it that way when I was building more bows ….. but ….I had still had issues with contamination before I got through the stuff. it seemed like I was wasting too much due to air exposure and saw dust contamination as I got to the bottom of the containers.
I’m curious how you dispense your smooth on without too much air exposure and waste?
It’s too bad that stuff isn’t packaged in grease gun cartridges. That would make pumping it possible with no air exposure until mixing time. I gotta admit the west systems epoxy is much easier to mix with a pump dispenser.
Kirk
Post by: BigJim on May 27, 2022, 10:14:35 AM
Bigjm
Post by: mmattockx on May 27, 2022, 10:38:39 AM
What is the formula for mixing by weight Jim?
I have two of the pint cans sitting in front of me. Since the volume should be the same, the weight difference should be the weight ratio for a 1:1 mix. Part A has a weight of 1.12lb (0.51kg) and Part B has a weight of 0.94lb (0.43kg). That gives a weight ratio of roughly 5:4 to equal the 1:1 volume ratio. Jim mixing his at 2:1 by weight is getting the equivalent of a 1.6:1 volume mix.
It’s too bad that stuff isn’t packaged in grease gun cartridges.
Or a caulking gun cartridge. That would be really helpful for shelf life and easy dispensing, too bad they don't do one of those.
Mark
Post by: Shredd on May 27, 2022, 07:38:52 PM
https://www.tapplastics.com/product/repair_products/adhesives_glues_sealants/plastic_caulking_tube/603
Post by: Kirkll on May 27, 2022, 09:51:16 PM
Caulk tubes is a great idea... I thought about that a while back... If I ever git to making some bows again I will be doing this...
https://www.tapplastics.com/product/repair_products/adhesives_glues_sealants/plastic_caulking_tube/603
That's a Killer idea Shredd! I didn't know they sold empty caulking tubes like that. I'm going for it!
I wonder if they make food grade tubes? Could you imagine how fast you could make a PBJ with caulking guns?
Thanks, Kirk
Post by: Kirkll on May 27, 2022, 09:56:25 PM
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Post by: mmattockx on May 27, 2022, 11:55:23 PM
I wonder if they make food grade tubes? Could you imagine how fast you could make a PBJ with caulking guns?
:biglaugh:
I didn't know you could buy unused caulking tubes, I am going to have to look for those on this side of the border.
Mark
Post by: Mad Max on May 28, 2022, 12:24:25 AM
I have prime no shipping charge for me
https://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Caulking-11-Ounce-Refillable-Sealant/dp/B07G4C55LH
Post by: onetone on May 28, 2022, 12:32:29 AM
Post by: Kirkll on May 28, 2022, 01:25:56 PM
Kirk it looks like Tap Plastics has retail stores in Portland and Tigard. Sorta in your area.
Yup.... But Portland is a big town, and I'm 30 miles south of Portland. Tigard is a 35-40 minute drive one way, and the other one is about the same drive out on the NE side of Portland near Trout Dale. With the price of gas at over $5.00 a gallon i'd be better going with Amazon Free shipping. Kirk
Post by: Longcruise on May 28, 2022, 01:26:39 PM
Post by: Kirkll on May 28, 2022, 02:30:33 PM
I like the caulk tube idea, BUT would we be just trading the mixing mess for a tube filling mess? :dunno:
I think it might be worth it just to keep the epoxy parts free from air exposure & contaminants that you get scooping it out of a can. How often would you have to refill the tube ? Not that often at all depending on how many bows you are building.
Now measuring it into the cup may or may not be easier depending on how well it flows through the caulking gun. In winter time you would definitely have to keep those tubes hanging in a warm place.
I'm going to give it a go and see how i like it... Kirk
Post by: Shredd on May 28, 2022, 05:44:54 PM
I like the caulk tube idea, BUT would we be just trading the mixing mess for a tube filling mess? :dunno:
Now I guess that all depends on if you are messy or not... :goldtooth: I think it's a winner...
Post by: Mad Max on May 28, 2022, 06:11:48 PM
Sounds like a winner to me too.
I just ordered from Amazon :thumbsup:
Post by: Kirkll on May 28, 2022, 09:42:05 PM
I hear that keeping the air from getting to it prolongs the life of it.
Sounds like a winner to me too.
I just ordered for Amazon :thumbsup:
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: I did too! :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Post by: Mad Max on May 28, 2022, 11:06:16 PM
Post by: Buggs on May 29, 2022, 12:05:10 AM
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Post by: Kirkll on May 29, 2022, 12:26:36 PM
I got a feeling getting the EA 40 loaded into an empty caulking tubes might prove to be interesting. I think i'll try turning up the spray booth temp to 90 degrees and warming the cans up really good. The part B wont be too bad, but the part A is going to be challenging.
I'm afraid to heat it up too much, but if you could get it thin enough to pour like honey, that would make it a lot easier... I'll let ya know what i come up with... Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on May 29, 2022, 01:58:27 PM
If you stab the fill end of the tube in the can to the bottom and wiggle it around a little you should come out with a good start, then add more with a putty knife trying to keep air pockets from getting in. :dunno:
Post by: Longcruise on May 29, 2022, 02:29:17 PM
Yes I'm setting here thinking how to load part A into the tube also.
If you stab the fill end of the tube in the can to the bottom and wiggle it around a little you should come out with a good start, then add more with a putty knife trying to keep air pockets from getting in. :dunno:
Yeh, I was wrong. Not gonna be a mess! :biglaugh:
Post by: Buggs on May 29, 2022, 03:29:02 PM
They will easily pump EA-40.
I used to work in restaurants long ago.....
Post by: Mad Max on May 29, 2022, 04:30:18 PM
Those are condiment pumps, like for ketchup and mayo. They use the same pumps for Honey.
They will easily pump EA-40.
I used to work in restaurants long ago.....
Those pumps have to get air in there, we are trying to keep air out. :thumbsup:
Post by: Buggs on May 29, 2022, 04:37:20 PM
Post by: Longcruise on May 29, 2022, 04:43:46 PM
Post by: Kirkll on May 29, 2022, 08:09:59 PM
Max..... Are you saying to stab the butt end of the caulking tube into the can? :o :o Man you gotta take a video of that procedure. I got a feeling it's going to be entertaining. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
I was thinking more along the lines of a narrow spatula.
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or these perhaps
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Post by: Buggs on May 29, 2022, 09:24:45 PM
Honey,
and before someone says the pump is a different color: They are all the same! My point about the West Systems was in reference to the post about getting air in the container, not the viscosity. Don't think West Systems would be using pumps if there were problems with the system.
Honestly, I think you guys are nuts. Nothing seals better than a clean metal paint can lid and lip, which is what those cute little EA-40 cans are. Hell, I don't even use EA-40!
Must have been a different thread where someone was talking about epoxy pumps
Post by: Kirkll on May 29, 2022, 09:36:23 PM
Btw....We are all crazy in here building bows from wood and composite materials and expecting them to last 50-60 years being bent and stressed thousands of times... But i can live with it. :biglaugh: Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on May 30, 2022, 12:02:58 AM
Longcruise is right.... west systems does have a pump, but the viscosity is much thinner . The EA 40 is much closer to caulking....
Max..... Are you saying to stab the butt end of the caulking tube into the can? :o :o Man you gotta take a video of that procedure. I got a feeling it's going to be entertaining. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
You would have to cut a 1/4" off the tip to let the air out, STAB slowly :goldtooth:
Post by: Buggs on May 30, 2022, 07:18:32 AM
It was quite entertaining to try. Anybody thats planning on putting EA-40 into a caulking tube, should definitely video the process.
Curious on how you will get the air out of the tube, that will be introduced when filling by hand?
Don't think it will rise up to the top like fluid in a syringe. EA-40 is thixotropic, which means it will not flow, even if heated
Post by: Shredd on May 30, 2022, 10:27:47 AM
Post by: Mad Max on May 30, 2022, 10:32:22 AM
Post by: Kirkll on May 30, 2022, 10:53:17 AM
But…heat does change the viscosity on this stuff. When I’m mixing EA 40 I put the cup in the microwave for 15 seconds and the part A turns to a fluid you could easily pour.
The part B hardener doesn’t liquify like the resin does, but it mixes very smoothly after being heated….
With that being said…. I don’t think it would be a good idea to heat this product up very much to transfer it into a caulking tube, then let it set for long periods before mixing. Then again…. It may have no effect on it. I’d have to do a test, or contact the manufacturer regarding heating and reheating the hardener. I don’t think it would effect the resin at all, but one never knows.
I’m thinking heating the cans to 90 degrees over night should make that resin more like thick honey, and the hardener will loosen up a bit more too without effecting the two parts. Actually you could put them in your hot box for awhile to warm them up….
It’s entirely possible this may just turn into a comedy act that we’ll laugh about later….. no balls, no glory! :biglaugh: Kirk
Post by: Kirkll on May 30, 2022, 10:59:17 AM
Vacuum and centrifuge...
Hey….. I think you got something there Shredd…. But I want to see the video watching those calking tubes collapse like a thin straw sucking a thick milkshake. :biglaugh:
This could be very entertaining ….. :readit:
Post by: Buggs on May 30, 2022, 11:12:40 AM
Post by: mmattockx on May 30, 2022, 11:13:50 AM
EA-40 is thixotropic, which means it will not flow, even if heated
Thixotropic has nothing to do with thinning with heat, it has to do with viscosity changing due to agitation or shear stress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy
Mark
Post by: Buggs on May 30, 2022, 12:04:09 PM
Post by: Kirkll on May 30, 2022, 01:26:41 PM
Here ya go.... talk about butt ugly... :saywhat:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fXqNBTGwxhhy3xLy6
Post by: Buggs on May 30, 2022, 01:57:41 PM
I remember the first one I ever saw in action. It was a big as 1970's TV and the food came out looking the same as it went it, but it was steaming. Never wanted one after that.
Post by: Kirkll on May 30, 2022, 02:04:26 PM
EA-40 is thixotropic, which means it will not flow, even if heated
Thixotropic has nothing to do with thinning with heat, it has to do with viscosity changing due to agitation or shear stress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy
Mark
OK Mark..... If a microwave is just stimulating the molecules and thinning it down, why couldn't we use this to thin it down and just pour it into the caulking tubes ? Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on May 30, 2022, 05:15:41 PM
Part A = 71 grams
Part B = 59 grams
I think 71 grams A and 29.5 grams of B will do 1 Recurve with Veneers and lams.
Post by: Shredd on May 30, 2022, 06:05:17 PM
Thanks for sharing... Important stuff...
Good Job Mark... :clapper: Info of the week right there, if not the month... To me anyways... :goldtooth:
Post by: mmattockx on May 30, 2022, 06:20:53 PM
OK Mark..... If a microwave is just stimulating the molecules and thinning it down, why couldn't we use this to thin it down and just pour it into the caulking tubes ?
I don't see why not. Warn is warm for the most part with epoxies, I have used a double boiler to heat epoxy that had sat too long and developed crystals in the liquid. Heating and letting it cool slowly redissolves the crystals back into solution.
So I weighted up some epoxy, I used some restaurant cups like for extra jalapeno peppers or extra salad dressing and filled them level to the top.
Part A = 71 grams
Part B = 59 grams
I think 71 grams A and 29.5 grams of B will do 1 Recurve with Veneers and lams.
Since we're on the subject of mixing ratios and the like, what do you guys find for pot life and room temp cure time when you reduce part B to 1/2 of A?
Mark
Post by: Robertfishes on May 30, 2022, 06:37:55 PM
Post by: Mad Max on May 30, 2022, 07:20:14 PM
Post by: Kirkll on May 30, 2022, 08:42:55 PM
OK Mark..... If a microwave is just stimulating the molecules and thinning it down, why couldn't we use this to thin it down and just pour it into the caulking tubes ?
I don't see why not. Warn is warm for the most part with epoxies, I have used a double boiler to heat epoxy that had sat too long and developed crystals in the liquid. Heating and letting it cool slowly redissolves the crystals back into solution.So I weighted up some epoxy, I used some restaurant cups like for extra jalapeno peppers or extra salad dressing and filled them level to the top.
Part A = 71 grams
Part B = 59 grams
I think 71 grams A and 29.5 grams of B will do 1 Recurve with Veneers and lams.
Since we're on the subject of mixing ratios and the like, what do you guys find for pot life and room temp cure time when you reduce part B to 1/2 of A?
Mark
I haven't used a 2:1 volume ratio since i first started messing with this stuff about 15 years ago, but i really cant remember the actual pot life being a problem. I do remember it being a pretty sticky booger compared to 5:4 i ended up going with.
I use 9 oz paper cups to mix in with no wax in the cups... I tried plastic cups once and they didn't like the microwave much at all.... What a mess that was. :knothead:
I don't really measure anything. I just take a big scoop of the resin with a 1.5" piece of glass , and a smaller scoop of the hardener. I usually mix about 4-5 ounces for a limb lay up which is about half of the 9 oz cup, and i mix it for a good minute or so using a paddle bit in a drill. I think mixing time is a big deal with epoxy... The stuff stays pretty smooth for about 10 minutes which is plenty of time for a limb.... after about 15 minutes it starts kicking off and gets harder to spread evenly. I've used left over stuff in the cup for other things. Mostly filling cracks in my wood floor in the shop. After 20 minutes it's pretty much unusable.
When doing a one piece bow i mix a bit more in the cup. say 5-6 oz... then mix a second cup when it runs out. It's a lot more user friendly than west systems as far as kick off time goes. That west systems is a hot tamale! You gotta move quickly using that stuff. Kirk
Post by: EvilDogBeast on May 31, 2022, 12:40:44 AM
I mix my parts in those graduated cups the epoxy river table nerds use, with a plastic tongue depressor. The plastic sticks can be wiped off after use with denatured alcohol and reused. West Systems makes some nice shaped ones and a pack of them will last you a long time if you don't abuse them (use something else to open your EA-40 cans).
Post by: mmattockx on May 31, 2022, 10:55:46 AM
Pot life for me is about 2 hours in a shop that sits in the 68°F - 70°F range
My workspace is in that same range, maybe even cooler, so I will have no issues at all with pot life.
I transfer from the cup to a 2" paint roller tray. I also use the 2" foam roller to spread the EA-40 on the lams which seriously reduces the amount of adhesive I use.
Foam roller like this?
https://www.amazon.ca/Roller-Mister-Density-Perfect-Painting/dp/B09PTWLSX2/ref=sr_1_8?crid=ZMN8LN00GINH&keywords=2%22+paint+roller&qid=1654008691&sprefix=2+paint+rolle%2Caps%2C205&sr=8-8
Mark
Post by: EvilDogBeast on May 31, 2022, 01:04:12 PM
https://www.lowes.com/pd/WHIZZ-2-in-Foam-Roller-3-Piece-Mini-Paint-Applicator-Kit/3013611
Post by: Crooked Stic on June 01, 2022, 08:58:28 AM
Keep it simple :wavey:
Post by: Kirkll on June 06, 2022, 09:08:59 PM
Max..... Are you saying to stab the butt end of the caulking tube into the can? :o :o Man you gotta take a video of that procedure. I got a feeling it's going to be entertaining. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Quote
You would have to cut a 1/4" off the tip to let the air out, STAB slowly :goldtooth:
We guys.... I got my empty caulking tubes and they filled pretty easily after warming the epoxy in my spray booth for about 4 hours at 80-85 degrees. I just set the cans on the top shelf and turned up the heat this morning.
I did try Max's "Stab" method on the new can after cutting a 1/4" off the tip of the tube First....It did work, but it was kinda of a mess to clean off the tube. The rest of them i clipped the tube tip too, but just used a fiberglass scrap to put it into the tube. After warming it, it was easily pushed into the tube without a lot of mess. Whole thing probably took 15 minutes to fill 4 tubes....
I'll let you know how i like using the caulking gun when mixing. I'm going to go try it out now. Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on June 06, 2022, 10:28:03 PM
Post by: Shredd on June 06, 2022, 11:32:03 PM
Post by: Crooked Stic on June 07, 2022, 07:16:52 AM
Post by: Kirkll on June 07, 2022, 09:52:59 AM
I ended up scraping the cans clean to do my last limb lay up yesterday. So I didn’t use the tubes yet. I’m going to try it this morning after the shop temp has cooled down. This will be a good test to see how well it works in 50 degree temp. They didn’t send any caps for the tip on these tubes I bought, so I just used masking tape to seal the tip much like I do on silicone caulking.
I’ll let ya know what I think about it. Kirk
Post by: Kirkll on June 08, 2022, 10:18:57 PM
I just uploaded this video from my phone. So it may take a minute to load up. Kirk
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GRDTUCXRQ7exFuxG9
Post by: mmattockx on June 09, 2022, 12:56:41 AM
Mark
Post by: Mad Max on June 09, 2022, 07:38:52 AM
Post by: Mark R on June 09, 2022, 08:02:54 AM
Post by: Mad Max on June 09, 2022, 08:27:01 AM
I've got to ask Kirk, in the video what kind of bow are you making.
Look on his website at the Bigfoot "Bare" Hybird limbs
Post by: Kirkll on June 09, 2022, 09:32:35 AM
We have had an unusually cool Spring going this year. A lot of rain too.
I think we have only had one day reach 80 degrees so far, and very few over 70 in the last couple months. It’s just now starting to get in the low 70’s a bit, but still getting hammered by one rain storm after another…. Very wet year… we just got our vegetable garden planted last week, and typically have everything planted In April.
The limb I laid up in the video was a Bare SS recurve limb. Here are some that I finished last week on an “A” mag riser. Look at the string angle on this 60” bow. I’ve had a request to do a DFC chart on this bow, so I may or may not have some data available in the near future.
I do not have time to do a lot of testing anymore.
There is no need to anyway. My limb designs have proven to be high in performance. But I do offer a service to do the DFC chart and run a bow through the chronograph, and record all the data for $100. Kirk
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5BwFBH4ZfVi91n8J9
Post by: Buggs on June 09, 2022, 10:02:48 AM
Post by: Kirkll on June 09, 2022, 10:52:32 AM
With the amount I used in the video, it was perfect for a limb lay up. I’ll bet I didn’t have much more than a table spoon left in the cup. That was only a 5 piece lay up. (Light draw weight) When doing veneers (7 lam) , or a heavier draw weight using 6 lams I’d be scraping the cup clean. Probably use a bit more on veneers.
For the little cost for the tubes, and easy filling. I strongly recommend this application. Especially for guys not building a lot of bows. I think keeping it in these caulking tubes will extend the shelf life considerably , vs a half can sitting for months on end. I go through about 3- 4.5 gallons a year myself depending on how busy I am. .02 cents worth. Kirk
Post by: mmattockx on June 09, 2022, 11:34:25 AM
The shop was running about 60-65 degrees when I laid the limbs up. Overnight low temp was about 55 degrees and both A & B parts flowed pretty easily in the caulking gun.
That is good news as my glue up space is generally pretty cool. It looked like you had no trouble getting it to flow easily out of the tubes. I appreciate the tip on the colour changing when mixed enough, I've not used EA-40 before and that is a good thing to know ahead of time.
The limb I laid up in the video was a Bare SS recurve limb. Here are some that I finished last week on an “A” mag riser. Look at the string angle on this 60” bow.
That is a sweet bend and amazing string angle. 28" draw? What does that look like unstrung?
Those caulking tubes look like they work well. Looks like they saved you a few seconds over scooping it out of the can :dunno:
For me it's not the time. It looks like a much neater, less messy way to handle the epoxy and not ever get the two parts accidentally mixed where you don't want them. Minimizing the exposure to air is a bonus, as I don't make many bows and shelf life can be an issue.
Mark
Post by: Kirkll on June 09, 2022, 01:58:44 PM
Post by: onetone on June 09, 2022, 03:23:51 PM
And hats off to Shedd for the good idea of using caulking tubes for storage and dispensing EA-40! :thumbsup:
Post by: Mad Max on June 09, 2022, 03:39:14 PM
Good looking bow Kirk!
And hats off to Shedd for the good idea of using caulking tubes for storage and dispensing EA-40! :thumbsup:
X2 on both :thumbsup:
Post by: Longcruise on June 09, 2022, 04:51:48 PM
Good looking bow Kirk!
And hats off to Shedd for the good idea of using caulking tubes for storage and dispensing EA-40! :thumbsup:
Sure is. Tips are a little wide. :biglaugh:
Post by: Shredd on June 09, 2022, 11:40:25 PM
Good looking bow Kirk!
And hats off to Shedd for the good idea of using caulking tubes for storage and dispensing EA-40! :thumbsup:
Thanks but it was a group effort... I had the idea a few years back but Kirk mentioned grease guns, Mattockx said caulk tubes and I supported the idea... Give the Credit to Kirk, he pulled the trigger and got er' done... :thumbsup:
Post by: Kirkll on June 10, 2022, 12:09:03 PM
I do need to go find a better calking gun for my part "B" . I know i've got a better one around here somewhere. That cheapy gun i'm using now doesn't match the part "A" gun and the volume that one squeeze puts out is a bit different. I'm still eye balling it.
The cool part about EA 40 is that the exact ratio isn't a huge deal. It's pretty user friendly. The key element is the mixing time, and the color.... If its got a yellow cast after mixing thoroughly for a full minute, you need more part A .... If it ain't white, it ain't right. :biglaugh: That, and warming the two parts before mixing helps a bunch. Kirk
Post by: Buggs on June 16, 2022, 08:06:12 AM
And there you are whipping it up into an epoxy meringue!
Post by: EvilDogBeast on June 16, 2022, 08:41:58 AM
Post by: Mad Max on June 16, 2022, 09:36:04 AM
His application method with the putty knife offsets it.
X2 and the pressure in the form :thumbsup:
Post by: Buggs on June 16, 2022, 10:06:36 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsMDah4NmEU
Post by: Kirkll on June 16, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
Just about everybody making composites goes out of their way to avoid, or remove air from resin mixes.
And there you are whipping it up into an epoxy meringue!
I have been mixing my Smooth on like this for 15 years and have well over 500 bows scattered across the globe, and have never had an issue with limb delamination. So there is that.... :readit:
On top of that, i believe this smooth on liquifies a bit before it starts kicking off using heat to cure the limbs. Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on June 16, 2022, 05:37:47 PM
Post by: Kirkll on June 16, 2022, 09:59:15 PM
Amazingly enough.... a lot of the bull works we laid up from teak we used Urac. That is some excellent glue for laminating wood, but does not hold up well with composites. They still make the stuff under the name of Unibond 800. If i was building all wood bows, i wouldn't use epoxy. Its great glue for outdoor furniture too. Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on June 16, 2022, 10:10:28 PM
I use EA-40 now
Post by: Kirkll on June 17, 2022, 09:23:48 PM
It's still there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsMDah4NmEU
I just watched your video.... Degassing for vacuum infusion of composites, and laying up bow limbs with wood using EA 40 with a putty knife is a whole different application. There would be no advantage i can see going through this meticulous dog and pony show of degassing.
But hey bro.... go ahead and have a gas doing it! Kirk
Post by: Buggs on June 18, 2022, 07:44:06 AM
The video was posted to show how air entrainment causes a clear, mixed resin to turn "white" and that there is a substantial quantity of air present even though none is visible.
Post by: mmattockx on June 18, 2022, 09:53:01 AM
I bought some unibond one time for a Bamboo backed Ipe and opened the can, it was like semi hard jello
This is the weakness of the urea glues, they have an even more limited shelf life than epoxies. I think Pat uses Unibond 800 on his boo/osage bows.
Mark
Post by: Longcruise on June 18, 2022, 07:12:44 PM
I bought some unibond one time for a Bamboo backed Ipe and opened the can, it was like semi hard jello
This is the weakness of the urea glues, they have an even more limited shelf life than epoxies. I think Pat uses Unibond 800 on his boo/osage bows.
Mark
I thought they were a powder that is mixed with water before use?
Post by: Mad Max on June 18, 2022, 08:35:04 PM
Post by: Longcruise on June 19, 2022, 12:04:27 AM
Post by: mmattockx on June 19, 2022, 12:07:42 AM
I thought they were a powder that is mixed with water before use?
Unibond is a powder mixed with a liquid that comes with it. Some others are powder that you mix with water. They all have a pretty limited shelf life, even compared with epoxies.
Mark
Post by: Longcruise on June 19, 2022, 10:43:18 AM
I thought they were a powder that is mixed with water before use?
Unibond is a powder mixed with a liquid that comes with it. Some others are powder that you mix with water. They all have a pretty limited shelf life, even compared with epoxies.
Mark
Limited shelf life in the powder form or after mixing?
Post by: Buggs on June 19, 2022, 11:10:19 AM
Post by: onetone on June 19, 2022, 11:39:34 AM
Post by: Shredd on June 19, 2022, 12:41:28 PM
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Post by: Buggs on June 19, 2022, 03:15:09 PM
If I could look that sauve, I'd get some EA-40 right now!
Post by: mmattockx on June 19, 2022, 09:08:19 PM
Limited shelf life in the powder form or after mixing?
In the unmixed form. The stuff MM said was like hardened jello was most likely a sealed package that sat on the shelf too long in a retail store.
Mark
Post by: Kirkll on June 20, 2022, 11:09:39 AM
You can also get a lot of bogus info based on info passed along by people with no real experience, or very little experience with the product at all. I believe 2nd hand info is called hear say…. I would highly recommend looking closely at the source of your info.
Until you have used a product, or multiple products yourself and experienced the difference, and used it in many different applications, you won’t really know for sure.
There are a lot of key board experts out there that are very good at researching knowledge gained by what others have experienced, but have very little hands on experience themselves. Theory and opinions based on 2nd hand info is great for helping make decisions on trying something new and expanding your own knowledge base.
But be very careful how much stock you put into a lot of this so called expert advise you get from inexperienced people that cannot show you their finished products, have a solid base of craftsmanship with decent longevity, with good references. Talk is cheap… Kirk
Post by: kennym on June 20, 2022, 02:51:47 PM
Yep!!
Post by: Buggs on June 20, 2022, 04:35:01 PM
Back in the day when I laminating Hondo Mahogany for exterior applications I used Resorcinol. Glue lines blend well with mahogany, but it is very messy and it stains anything it touches - very messy! And there is that problem with formaldehyde … epoxy is a big step up imo.
Resorcinal was always the favorite adhesive of the Bamboo Flyrod builders. It was the first glue I used for an all wood laminated bow. It was plenty strong and flexible, but you are right about the mess! It was a no brainer to choose epoxy over the wood flour glues.
Post by: Mad Max on June 20, 2022, 05:26:35 PM
But be very careful how much stock you put into a lot of this so called expert advise you get from inexperienced people that cannot show you their finished products, have a solid base of craftsmanship with decent longevity, with good references. Talk is cheap… Kirk
I agree, there is a facebook page on building selfbows and there is a TON of bad Info. on there
Post by: Mad Max on June 20, 2022, 05:29:05 PM
What does dat mean? :dunno:
Post by: kennym on June 20, 2022, 05:58:37 PM
Post by: Buggs on June 20, 2022, 06:15:49 PM
Post by: Mad Max on June 20, 2022, 10:08:03 PM
You guys get your picture up at the P.O. now, or what?
:scared: :laugh:
Post by: Crooked Stic on June 21, 2022, 06:41:14 AM
Post by: Mad Max on June 21, 2022, 07:10:17 AM
Where is this Hall of Fame ??
:dunno: Under YOUR name
This is a new thing Terry is doing
https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=178839.0
Post by: Longcruise on June 21, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
Where is this Hall of Fame ??
You are in it. :biglaugh:
Post by: Bvas on June 21, 2022, 04:00:05 PM
Where is this Hall of Fame ??Over the bumpy bridge, past the old Johnson place, then hang a left at the big oak. Drive a few more miles, then hard right at the fallen barn. Then just keep going a couple ridges over…. Ya can’t miss it!!! If ya come to a creek ya went to far. If ya end up in the creek, ya went waaay too far.
Post by: Mad Max on June 21, 2022, 04:58:54 PM
Post by: Shredd on June 21, 2022, 07:54:14 PM
Post by: Shredd on June 21, 2022, 07:54:35 PM
Post by: Shredd on June 21, 2022, 07:55:07 PM
Post by: Shredd on June 21, 2022, 07:55:31 PM
Post by: Shredd on June 21, 2022, 07:55:51 PM
Post by: Shredd on June 21, 2022, 08:13:11 PM
Post by: Mad Max on June 21, 2022, 09:05:20 PM
You have to post a picture and stand on you head for 3 min. :tongue:
Post by: Longcruise on June 21, 2022, 09:21:55 PM
No matter I now prefer to identity as Longcruise. So, now there are 65 identities. 😀
Post by: Crooked Stic on June 22, 2022, 07:00:52 AM
Ain't sure how I got there either. :wavey:
Post by: Buggs on June 22, 2022, 08:34:22 AM
Dang, I'd be there if I could've retrieved my old identity.
No matter I now prefer to identity as Longcruise. So, now there are 65 identities. 😀
Is that the bowyer formally known as Monterey, or a less binary identity?
Post by: Longcruise on June 22, 2022, 01:41:46 PM
Dang, I'd be there if I could've retrieved my old identity.
No matter I now prefer to identity as Longcruise. So, now there are 65 identities. 😀
Is that the bowyer formally known as Monterey, or a less binary identity?
Indeed it is/was? Monterey. :biglaugh:
Post by: Mad Max on June 22, 2022, 03:49:59 PM
Dang, I'd be there if I could've retrieved my old identity.
No matter I now prefer to identity as Longcruise. So, now there are 65 identities. 😀
Is that the bowyer formally known as Monterey, or a less binary identity?
Indeed it is/was? Monterey. :biglaugh:
Terry Green knows you are a old fart and have been here a long time. :tongue:
Post by: Longcruise on June 22, 2022, 04:54:35 PM
Dang, I'd be there if I could've retrieved my old identity.
No matter I now prefer to identity as Longcruise. So, now there are 65 identities. 😀
Is that the bowyer formally known as Monterey, or a less binary identity?
Indeed it is/was? Monterey. :biglaugh:
Terry Green knows you are a old fart and have been here a long time. :tongue:
Yeah, probably. He knew Flem was an old fart too. :biglaugh:
Post by: Buggs on June 22, 2022, 08:50:15 PM
Drifting back to the original topic, I found this info on West Systems website. Thought it was interesting what they say about the look and smell.
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