Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: woodchucker on May 07, 2022, 05:24:34 PM
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More of a question really... Let's have some fun with this!! :archer:
You've got a bow, take your pick... Type, weight, etc.
An arrow.... Wood, alluminium, carbon, whatever you like.
You practice with 125gr field points, and ALWAYS carry a 135gr Judo while hunting.
The delema is... Do you use a 125gr broadhead matching your field points??
Or a 135gr broadhead, matching your Judo??
Now... WHY??? Let's hear whatcha think!! :coffee:
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I’ll play, if I’ve done my job tuning my bow and I don’t sacrifice any part of my form, then 10 grains shouldn’t have a dynamic effect on my result, so I’ll cheat and say all things positive, either choice will work
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I always have a practice broadhead of the same weight as my hunting broadheads. So in this case I would have practiced with my 125 grain broadhead immediately before hunting with them, so that is what I would want to shoot.
Every day I practice with 125 grain field points and a judo that weighs 135 grains. I've shot with this combination for so long that I instinctively know where to hold my judo point, without worrying about what it weighs. My problem would be if Zwicky started making 125 grain judo points that actually weighed 125 grains. Then, I’d be lost!
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None of you could tell the difference in 10 grains stop pretending you can.
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C. None of the above.
I shoot 160 grain Snuffers :biglaugh:
R
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None of you could tell the difference in 10 grains stop pretending you can.
Actually, I can. In arrow flight
Wouldn't even be in that situation. All my heads for a given arrow set up are the same weight. FP, BH or small game head.
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I'm along the lines with Ryan, I shoot 160-190 grain heads.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2:
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None of you could tell the difference in 10 grains stop pretending you can.
Actually, I can. In arrow flight
Wouldn't even be in that situation. All my heads for a given arrow set up are the same weight. FP, BH or small game head.
Really? So what happens when you sharpen your broadheads? You have to file down your field points and small game heads lol
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Really? So what happens when you sharpen your broadheads? You have to file down your field points and small game heads lol
LMAO:)
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I went to carbons for durability and the ability to tune overall point weight with varying my head/adapter/inserts as needed. I routinely use field points, steel blunts, rubber bludgeon, Judo points, and broadheads. All of them are weight matched within 5 grains. I also have two shafts with the snaro bird points that are weight matched too but those aren’t my preference in use so they collect dust.
Tuning is important and knowing that your equipment is spot on is possible regardless of what point you are using and game you are pursuing.
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I am not a good enough archer to be able to tell the difference in 10 grains.
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I make them all weigh the same.
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Though a perfect match between broadheads and field points will give one piece of mind, I've never seen anyone who could shoot a 10 grain difference in arrow weight, though I suspect a few top level Olympic archers might. But I've only been at this 65 years or so. I could be wrong.
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Hmmmm....???? :coffee:
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Either one would work for me. I know I'm not going to notice the difference. Although in reality I would be shooting my 135 Zwickey broadheads along with my 135 Judo point.
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Could be an issue if borderline tuned...
My field points are 200 gns while my broadheads are 190 gns. Both the field tipped and broadhead tipped arrows share the same mark out to 35 yards. There has been no personal desire to test any further.
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I can't tell the difference 10 grains makes, so I wouldn't worry about it. I also agree that few, if any, can really sense a performance difference. Form variances from shot to shot would always muddy the water for me when trying to explain differences in shot results due to a 10 grain span.
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Hmmm...??? Some interesting answers!! :coffee:
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Hmmm...??? Some interesting answers!! :coffee:
.....and a couple lies as well LOL
If any of you could shoot 10gr worth of difference, we would be watching you winning the olympics...
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Ok chuck, I'll play. If I had to pick I'd shoot 125 grain broadheads. They seem to be more readily available.
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Thanks for chiming in, Charlie!!! :bigsmyl:
But... Nobody answered the question...??? :readit:
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Hmmm...??? Some interesting answers!! :coffee:
.....and a couple lies as well LOL
If any of you could shoot 10gr worth of difference, we would be watching you winning the olympics...
There’s your answer right there.
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NOPE!!! Not what I'm looking for.... :coffee:
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Ok folks, here's a hint....
READ the question.... :readit: (all of it)
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Hmmm...??? Some interesting answers!! :coffee:
.....and a couple lies as well LOL
If any of you could shoot 10gr worth of difference, we would be watching you winning the olympics...
There’s your answer right there.
There's been some pretty disrespectful language thrown around in responses to this discussion, that is uncharacteristic of what I have come to expect on TradGang. Okay, I’ll throw one back at you. The type of error resulting from a 10 grain difference in point weight, while perhaps inconsequential in itself, is additive to whatever other errors may exist in the shot process. Add the effect of 2-3 of these otherwise inconsequential errors together, and you could well turn a hit into a miss. To ignore the effect of an easily correctable error because it seems inconsequential standing alone is simply mental laziness, in my opinion.
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Ok Folks!!! I was gonna let this soup simmer for a few days, BUT....
I said, "Let's have some fun with this" :archer:
I got many answers.... NONE of them wrong!! But, none of them were really "right" either....
Truth is, it was a trick question... The REAL question, was WHY???
Everyone here uses different things, for different reasons. We use what's comfortable for us. What we're confident with. What's simple?? Maybe, just what makes us feel Lucky!!
So.... Let's try this again!! Now... WHY???
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None of you could tell the difference in 10 grains stop pretending you can.
Actually, I can. In arrow flight
Wouldn't even be in that situation. All my heads for a given arrow set up are the same weight. FP, BH or small game head.
Really? So what happens when you sharpen your broadheads? You have to file down your field points and small game heads lol
I don't "file" anything. My heads are not the soft steel type. And yes, ten grains can make a difference in arrow flight and at longer distance a slightly lower impact point. I just did this recently with three arrows after having a bow trimmed back in weight. Three bare shafts and three fletched.
Laugh if you want but you can really tell with a bare shaft.
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300 gr up front regardless
Broadhead, Field pt, Judo. BH adapters available to get there or within 10 grs. No difference in accuracy I can tell.
For penetration. I shoot thru everything except my last Moose. Stopped at opposite upper leg. He only went about 20 ft tho.
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Ok Folks, Here's mine....
For years, I have basically run the same arrows.
55-60# cedars, with 125gr field points or 125gr Zwickey Eskimo, or a Bear Razorhead.
A couple years ago, I dropped 10# and Little Bear made me 45-50# arrows for my new limbs. Same 125gr points.
I have always carried a Judo arrow in my quiver for one reason...
Old Woodchucker, is a VERY superstitious Indian!! I NEVER "practice" during hunting season...
This goes back 40 years, to my compound days. Sometimes we all just have a bad day. I'd be busting nocks, and ripping vanes, then one day.... I'm all over the target!! I'd start fiddleing with the sights, untill everything was screwed up, and I couldn't hit sh-+!! I'd get frusterated and yank the sight off, and within a day or so, I was sticking every arrow in the target. GREAT!! Untill the next time.... I'd hang it up (smart) tomorrow's another day.
But!! When a deer would give me a shot.... The gremlins would get in my head, and I'd miss!!
After a few years, I hung it up.
When I got back into this "Traditional" bowhunting around 2000 or so, I bought a few Judo points.
I carried a Judo every time I went out hunting. I stopped "practicing" during hunting season. Every shot taken with the Judo, was a "hunting" shot. In the woods, unknown range, different positions, elevated, ground, etc.
I've got a bunch of 55-60# arrows around, that I've put 160gr field points on. I'll use them for practice and 3-D and a couple months before deer season, I'll switch back to my 45-50# arrows, and start practicing for deer season.
However... Being as I was changing points around, I decided to change broadheads this year.
I ordered a dozen 135gr Zwickey Deltas, and mounted them on my hunting arrows.
Being as I don't "formally" practice during the hunting season. I want my broadhead and Judo to both be the same weight. Then, every "practice" shot I take with my Judo, should be the same as with my broadhead!!
Wish me Luck!!! :archer:
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None of you could tell the difference in 10 grains stop pretending you can.
Actually, I can. In arrow flight
Wouldn't even be in that situation. All my heads for a given arrow set up are the same weight. FP, BH or small game head.
Really? So what happens when you sharpen your broadheads? You have to file down your field points and small game heads lol
I don't "file" anything. My heads are not the soft steel type. And yes, ten grains can make a difference in arrow flight and at longer distance a slightly lower impact point. I just did this recently with three arrows after having a bow trimmed back in weight. Three bare shafts and three fletched.
Laugh if you want but you can really tell with a bare shaft.
So you have broadheads that never get dull? Or are your broadheads made from a metal that can be resharpened without taking any metal off?
You sharpen metal it’s gonna lose weight eventually you gonna reach 10 grains... then what?
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Hmmm...??? Some interesting answers!! :coffee:
.....and a couple lies as well LOL
If any of you could shoot 10gr worth of difference, we would be watching you winning the olympics...
There’s your answer right there.
There's been some pretty disrespectful language thrown around in responses to this discussion, that is uncharacteristic of what I have come to expect on TradGang. Okay, I’ll throw one back at you. The type of error resulting from a 10 grain difference in point weight, while perhaps inconsequential in itself, is additive to whatever other errors may exist in the shot process. Add the effect of 2-3 of these otherwise inconsequential errors together, and you could well turn a hit into a miss. To ignore the effect of an easily correctable error because it seems inconsequential standing alone is simply mental laziness, in my opinion.
Curious. Can you give examples of errors that would not cause a miss unless 10 grains of point weight was added or subtracted?
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“Curious. Can you give examples of errors that would not cause a miss unless 10 grains of point weight was added or subtracted?”
Not sure I understand your question. My point was that an error that is insignificant by itself can result in a significant error when combined with other equally insignificant errors. Therefore, it would behoove us to eliminate as many insignificant errors as we can. To ignore a potential error that can be corrected is just sloppy.
An example would be:
Assume that somewhere between 20-30 yards, using a point marked 125 grains that is really 135 grains will result in a hit that is 1” low. Actually, my 135 grain judo hits more than 1” below my 125 grain field point at those distances, but I would assume a significant part of the drop is due to the non-aerodynamic shape of the judo. The actual drop solely due to an increase in point weight is complex to calculate, but is more for slower bows and for arrows with higher air drag.
Next, assume that our shaft is also 10 grains more than we expected. There goes another inch.
Next, assume we don't use a clicker (no real man would use a clicker, right?), so we release the arrow a fraction of an inch before we reach full draw. There goes another inch, and low and behold we just dropped out of our 6” kill zone.
The examples are endless, but that's what makes it fun, right?
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Well my wooden arrows may well vary as much as 20-30 grains, but with my limited skills, or perhaps I should say with my "lack" of skills, I can usually keep 5 into 4" on the aiming mark at 20 odd yards. And that's with either field points, blunts or broadheads, or a mix of them all.
I guess that really says that I'm simply not good enough to tell the difference :biglaugh:
But I can live with that :goldtooth:
Best
Lex
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To keep things simple all my blunts, field points and broadheads are all the same weight at 190 grains.
So to answer your question, I'd use a 125 grain broadhead to match the 125 grain field points you practice with.
Did I get it right :biglaugh:
Best
Lex
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To keep things simple all my blunts, field points and broadheads are all the same weight at 190 grains.
So to answer your question, I'd use a 125 grain broadhead to match the 125 grain field points you practice with.
Did I get it right :biglaugh:
Best
Lex
You did, ALex!!! :clapper: ("To keep things simple...")
Actually, there's no WRONG answer!! The REAL question... is WHY???
Why do YOU do.... What YOU do??
I "said" the dilema is... For ME!! All of us do different things, for different reasons! The question is WHY??? :archer:
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Your reasoning behind wanting to shoot the exact same weight broadhead and judo is flawed. The judo does not fly like a Broadhead. The longer the shot the more pronounced the difference in trajectory. It’s the shape of the judo. Everybody knows this and it’s not usually significant enough to cause anyone to quit using them. But they are not going to fly exactly like a broadhead and it ain’t because of the weight. And I think not practicing during the season is way more detrimental to shooting abilities than 10 grains of point weight.
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I started this as a game...
I'd throw out a trick question, and everyone would give their examples of what they shoot. That's what I expected!!
However, the real question, was WHY??? Why do you do, what you do?? I was hoping for some answers?? Get some opinions?? After all, I'm not you, nor you me. We are all individuals, and all do things differently.
NOBODY here was WRONG!! But, only one person here actually answered the question? "To keep things simple"
Now THAT, was the only "right" answer to the asked question!!
TradGang, is a family!!! :campfire:
It is probly the one "safe space" on the internet... We are all individuals and we all do things differently.
What works for me, may not work for you? That doesn't make it wrong!
I see threads on here where new folks are asking what they SHOULD do? It usually ends up with bunch of folks TELLING them what they HAVE to do!! Nobody ever explains why?? It then turns into a NO do this!! Then a "you don't know sh/+ I shoot better than you" to "I've been doing this longer" Then the whole thread goes to hell in a handbasket, just like this one did!!
Dave mentioned early on, that things were getting nasty... I jumped in, and clarrifide that the REAL question, was WHY??? Of coarse, the first post after that, was a quote and comment, that someone didn't know squat!!
It was started, as a GAME!! That was supposed to be FUN!! Hell, maybe we might learn something...??
Our founding father, Terry Green said,
"Debate is good, as one sword sharpens the other. But ALWAYS, expect to be RESPECTED!!"
RESPECT has been sadly lacking around here lately....
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My judos go exactly to the same spots as my broadheads.
42 grain aluminum adapters and 135 Zwickey and a 135 Judo.
I don't have a problem shooting a 125 WW or 125 Zwickey or a 175 Battle Axe or 175 grain VPA.
All on the same arrows. :campfire:
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For me the difference in 150 and 175 is more about tail kick than accuracy. Which of course can affect penetration.
I was shooting a match today with three arrows. Two with 150 and one with 175. The heavier point on an arrow trimmed too far during tuning. At closer ranges no difference but 20 plus I choose the 150 headed ones.
That said I shot low with one of them today on the first round an it's MIA.
On the other hand I shot a better round with my new wood arrows and I may have to buy some glue on broadheads for this trip to Africa.
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Thank You, Gentlemen!!! Sorry about the "rant".... :knothead:
Good Luck on your trip, Gary!!!! :archer:
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I'm super stoked. I appreciate the opportunity but I'm going to be working hard to be ready.
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Ok Folks, Here's mine....
For years, I have basically run the same arrows.
55-60# cedars, with 125gr field points or 125gr Zwickey Eskimo, or a Bear Razorhead.
A couple years ago, I dropped 10# and Little Bear made me 45-50# arrows for my new limbs. Same 125gr points.
I have always carried a Judo arrow in my quiver for one reason...
Old Woodchucker, is a VERY superstitious Indian!! I NEVER "practice" during hunting season...
This goes back 40 years, to my compound days. Sometimes we all just have a bad day. I'd be busting nocks, and ripping vanes, then one day.... I'm all over the target!! I'd start fiddleing with the sights, untill everything was screwed up, and I couldn't hit sh-+!! I'd get frusterated and yank the sight off, and within a day or so, I was sticking every arrow in the target. GREAT!! Untill the next time.... I'd hang it up (smart) tomorrow's another day.
But!! When a deer would give me a shot.... The gremlins would get in my head, and I'd miss!!
After a few years, I hung it up.
When I got back into this "Traditional" bowhunting around 2000 or so, I bought a few Judo points.
I carried a Judo every time I went out hunting. I stopped "practicing" during hunting season. Every shot taken with the Judo, was a "hunting" shot. In the woods, unknown range, different positions, elevated, ground, etc.
I've got a bunch of 55-60# arrows around, that I've put 160gr field points on. I'll use them for practice and 3-D and a couple months before deer season, I'll switch back to my 45-50# arrows, and start practicing for deer season.
However... Being as I was changing points around, I decided to change broadheads this year.
I ordered a dozen 135gr Zwickey Deltas, and mounted them on my hunting arrows.
Being as I don't "formally" practice during the hunting season. I want my broadhead and Judo to both be the same weight. Then, every "practice" shot I take with my Judo, should be the same as with my broadhead!!
Wish me Luck!!! :archer:
I wish you luck.
Because when you get those heads and weigh them, you may be surprised at what you find..
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To answer the question:
I mount up whatever broadheads and ACE Hex heads (I hate Judos) of similar grain weight as I can get. This is usually within 50 grains.
I go shoot those arrows.
If I can hit what I'm aiming at, I'm done. If not, I change weight on my Hex heads and if that doesn't do it I change weight on the Hex heads or just shoot the broadheads at everything. :dunno:
Why?:
Because it's simpler this way and doesn't require a formula, scale, or even an argument on the internet. And it's "exact" in the sense that I have tested every arrow, in the exact situation it will be used for. Making everything weigh the same or look the same is fine, but that doesn't always mean they will shoot the same. :banghead:
ESPECIALLY so if we are talking wood.
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Just for giggles, I did!! :thumbsup:
I borrowed an electronic scale, and weighed the 17 Judos and my new dozen Deltas....
Judos, 1 was 134gr, 2 were 136gr, and one was 137gr
Deltas, 1 out of the dozen weighed 134gr
Pretty dang close to me, and I'll never be able to tell the difference.... :archer:
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Just for giggles, I did!! :thumbsup:
I borrowed an electronic scale, and weighed the 17 Judos and my new dozen Deltas....
Judos, 1 was 134gr, 2 were 136gr, and one was 137gr
Deltas, 1 out of the dozen weighed 134gr
Pretty dang close to me, and I'll never be able to tell the difference.... :archer:
That's great news then. The last ones I had were all overweight and varied 5 grains or so between the pack.
But that was good enough for me.
1 grain certainly is!
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Well Chase, When you're Retired, you get "paid' to do stupid, silly stuff.... :thumbsup:
So, I pulled the heads, and gathered the others... As I said above, maybe I might learn something!!?? :dunno:
Well, I did!! Now I KNOW my new Deltas and Judos are all the same weight!! (well almost)
Close enough that I'll never be able to tell the difference, and that's close enough for me!! :archer:
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Well Chase, When you're Retired, you get "paid' to do stupid, silly stuff.... :thumbsup:
So, I pulled the heads, and gathered the others... As I said above, maybe I might learn something!!?? :dunno:
Well, I did!! Now I KNOW my new Deltas and Judos are all the same weight!! (well almost)
Close enough that I'll never be able to tell the difference, and that's close enough for me!! :archer:
Retired and "close enough for me" are the two biggest things in life I strive towards.
One I can usually achieve, and the other will never happen till I'm dead . LOL
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Hmmm...?? Old woodchucker had a brainfart :banghead:
What I forgot to "add" to my answer is....
Although old woodchucker is a VERY superstitious Indian, and yes the gremlins still git in my head...
My backyard range is only 10-12 yards. (15 if I stand in the bushes)
I practice with my field points, untill I know that I can put EVERY arrow in the kill zone!!
3-D shoots and stumping with my Judos, builds my confidence at longer ranges.
Once hunting season starts, I "practice" by stumping with my Judos. EVERY hunt, turns into a stump shoot!
A morning hunt ends by stumping my way out. An evening hunt starts out as a stump shoot.
The more difficult shots, and longer ranges, help build my confidence during the hunting season!!
(and keep the gremlins at bay...)
Hey, it works for me!! Has for years... :archer:
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I have a Zwickey Delta 4 blade (Old Blue) that has run through 14 deer in GA and one hog in TX. I have no idea what is weighs now after 35 plus years of sharpening, and don't care. It would fly again and kill again but I retired it. I'm sure it doesn't weigh the 'original weight'. But I wouldn't worry about it at all.
I'm thinking about bringing it out of retirement for next years Laredo Tusk Roundup to take a Javie. Wish me luck if I do.
I hope y'all get all these grains figured out, lets go hunting now.... :campfire:
Riddle.... who know what 'old blue' means...... don't say, just post yes.
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But!! When a deer would give me a shot.... The gremlins would get in my head, and I'd miss!!
After a few years, I hung it up.
Based on this comment woodchucker I think you have issues bigger than 10 grains affecting your shooting.
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I was weighing some new broadheads and was talking with a fella whose Dad made some good broadheads. Told him I had a range of about 4 grains between the 9 heads. He said 10-15 grains doesn't make that much difference, except in your head. Mounted a dozen of his Dad's heads and had a 4-5 grain spread. Shot them at javelina and they all flew well enough. Have to agree with him.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2:
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Well this thread came in with replies all over the map… :biglaugh: it WAS fun to read…. So I’ll play along…..
First thing that came to mind for me was the weight of both the Broad head and judo point seems kind of light for hunting weight arrows and May lack decent FOC balance.
Why? Because a lite tip weight FOC balance and blades effect arrow flight. But this could be mitigated with brass inserts and still use lighter point and broadhead weights on most shafts. On wood arrows, not so much.
Secondly , is that depending on what type of judo points you use, getting your broadheads shooting the same may be challenging or even tough to do at all with pin point accuracy at 20 yards.
After reading the many responses from the OP , I’d say 10 grains is not going to make a difference at all…..
Why?
Because with practice limited to 10-15 yards, you won’t see a drop, and stump shooting with judo points doesn’t tell you if your broad heads are flying straight.
I’m one of those bone heads that shoot all my hunting arrows and tune my broad heads, then sharpen them. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with hunting with arrows in my quiver I haven’t practiced with and know they fly decent.
.02 cents…. Kirk