Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on March 25, 2022, 06:55:39 AM
Got some g10 from Big Jim but it is only 1 1/2" wide. I need some wider for I beams etc.
Post by: OldRawhide42 on March 25, 2022, 07:40:28 AM
Post by: Crooked Stic on March 25, 2022, 08:30:47 AM
Post by: Kirkll on March 25, 2022, 03:27:33 PM
https://www.professionalplastics.com/AboutUs
Post by: Jeff tech on March 25, 2022, 09:38:16 PM
I get my Linen Phenolic from BigJims or Binghams. JF
Post by: onetone on March 26, 2022, 12:08:21 AM
Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on March 26, 2022, 09:11:37 AM
I only use Linen Phenolic or G10. No Micarta. Isn't Micarta a paper and resin product?
I get my Linen Phenolic from BigJims or Binghams. JF
Phenolic is basically another name for Micarta. Micarta was a brand name.
You can get canvas, linen, and paper. Linen is the finest grain stuff we want
Post by: Bow man on March 26, 2022, 09:14:55 AM
Post by: BigJim on March 26, 2022, 01:21:05 PM
As of last week, it is available to purchase on line. The color is black and much less waste and at better prices than most of the knife supply.. or others.
Need it thicker than we offer, or a thickness we don't offer, you can laminate it together with barely a noticeable glue line if you can see it at all.
Thanks, bigjim
Post by: Buemaker on March 26, 2022, 05:47:01 PM
Post by: BigJim on March 27, 2022, 07:25:14 AM
Personally I never use glass or phenolic perpendicular in the riser and only in extreme rare occasions have I seen it separate while in an I-beam situation.
It is obvious that the wood is shrinking when it pulls away from the phenolic since the outside is rarely smooth after. The phenolic protrudes slightly afterward.
At any case, it is extremely important that G10 and phenolic (G10 is also a form of phenolic) has been sanded with very coarse grit and then cleaned with acetone. 60 grit is acceptable, but 36 is more desireable.
BigJim
Post by: Buemaker on March 27, 2022, 08:16:53 AM
Post by: Mad Max on March 27, 2022, 08:31:23 AM
What the difference ? :dunno:
Post by: BigJim on March 27, 2022, 08:54:32 AM
Wood doesn't shrink unless there was moisture in it to escape, so when it shrinks away from the accent stripes in the riser they can be felt and often times the glue joint is compromised. No amount of finish will alleviate this.
The wood can swell if exposed to enough moisture, but this would be an extreme case and not common to everyday use/storage.
So.. to clarify, once wood is "dry", it expands and contracts as MC changes around it, but it is so slight that it isn't noticeable. The glass and phenolic doesn't. Because many bowyers don't have great stores of wood aging and rarely know the background of wood they acquire, it can be a sketchy proposition to use glass and or phenolic as accent lines in the riser. Even for the experienced, judging MC is often educated guessing.
BigJim
Post by: Appalachian Hillbilly on March 27, 2022, 09:17:37 AM
Post by: Mad Max on March 27, 2022, 09:34:12 AM
Post by: Kirkll on March 27, 2022, 10:45:32 AM
Even when your wood is bone dry, shipping it to a different climate than it was built, humidity can and will cause the wood to move and no finish you use makes a difference. I’ve had most my issues sending bows to very dry climates like Utah, Co, AZ, NM…. Also Australia is seriously dry climate. Etc…etc… from Oregon. The wood in my shop stays right at 12% year round. Sometimes dropping to 10 in late summer. I lay up most my risers ahead of time and let them dry in my spray booth that I keep heated and dry.
I’ve had my best luck staying below 10% on the I-beam lay up, and then hanging it in the spray booth at 90 degrees for a couple days after it’s been shaped and before I finish it. If it’s going to separate a wee bit, it typically does so prior to finish and the crack can be filled with epoxy before finished. I seldom have issues doing it this way…..but I still have them come back for refinish now and then. But…. I can live with it, and my customers love the mass weight and the non flex riser.
All the bows I built here with G-10 in the riser that stays in Oregon, or the west coast, I’ve never had an issue…. Kirk
Post by: Kirkll on March 27, 2022, 12:19:29 PM
I only use Linen Phenolic or G10. No Micarta. Isn't Micarta a paper and resin product?
I get my Linen Phenolic from BigJims or Binghams. JF
Phenolic is basically another name for Micarta. Micarta was a brand name.
You can get canvas, linen, and paper. Linen is the finest grain stuff we want
I didn't know that bro.... I always associated Micarta with that seriously dense, glass like material that destroyed band saw blades. :scared: :scared:
Post by: Flem on March 27, 2022, 06:36:14 PM
Post by: Mad Max on March 27, 2022, 08:05:51 PM
Post by: Kirkll on March 27, 2022, 09:01:30 PM
Post by: Flem on March 27, 2022, 09:11:38 PM
Post by: Crooked Stic on March 28, 2022, 07:48:48 AM
Post by: Bow Bender on March 28, 2022, 02:23:08 PM
Build Along thread.
Post by: Flem on March 28, 2022, 04:38:40 PM
I made it with black fiberglass window screen, with aluminum window screen layers interspersed throughout
partly done and real ugly!
Post by: Goldxxx on April 02, 2022, 08:18:32 PM
Post by: Kirkll on April 02, 2022, 11:18:56 PM
Can natural canvas micarta be used as an I-beam on a riser? Would one use Smooth On or just regular epoxy to laminate it to the other wood for riser?
You bet…. This whole ILF riser is made from canvas phenolic.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/x44HmrKuXWPNgvkJ7
Kirk
Post by: Goldxxx on April 03, 2022, 09:09:54 AM
Post by: Flem on April 03, 2022, 09:20:27 AM
Post by: Kirkll on April 03, 2022, 10:09:57 AM
Kirk, What did you use to glue it together? And did you rough it up with sandpaper before gluing?
Like most my laminations I run them through the drum sander with 36-40 grit sandpaper and use good old EA-40. I’m actually surprised I still have this riser, and Someone hasn’t bought it. I built it several years ago.
I used to do a lot of wood laminating with Urac 185. Good stuff, brown in color, can
Be heated and cured , or room temp cures just fine. It was discontinued, but is still produced by the same company under a different name. Unibond 800. Excellent wood glue…. But…. It doesn’t bond well to fiberglass or phenolic.
https://nelsonpaint.com/unibond-800-urea-adhesive-pint/
In the days of old they used to build a lot of bows using Urac and had a lot of delaminating going on with glass bows. Once the epoxy came into the picture, Urac wasn’t used for glass backed bows much any more.
I used a lot of Urac to build action wood for bow lams, and mosaic blocks, and I used a bunch of it building furniture from black walnut. The brown glue lines disappear with the dark wood. We used it a lot with Teak on the bull works on boats and rails. It bonds real well with that oily wood for some reason.
If I were building a lot of board bows with no composites , I would use the Uni Bond 800 over epoxy. It’s a water based glue, and much more user friendly than epoxy. Kirk
Kirk
Post by: Flem on April 03, 2022, 10:51:48 AM
Most all wood bows prior to that were made with Resorcinol glue.
Post by: Kirkll on April 03, 2022, 11:33:44 AM
I remember reading some articles about it being used by Fred Bear many years ago when the first glass bows were becoming popular, and then going to epoxy in short order after experiencing delamination issues.
Interesting topic…. Kirk
It’s entirely possible this newer Unibond 800 bonds better to composite materials, but I have no experience with the newer stuff.
Post by: Flem on April 03, 2022, 12:07:10 PM
I imagine the old time bowyers kept using what they were familiar with, even after they started using synthetic materials. Until they discovered the compatibility issues.
In all the old Archery texts that I have, Casein glue seems to have been the adhesive of choice until the synthetics became available.
Post by: Kirkll on April 03, 2022, 03:26:36 PM
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/casein-glue
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/electrodeposition