On a bulls eye, I seem to struggle a bit. But on an animal target, or animal (besides the adrenaline rush) I seem to shoot pretty well.
Anyone else experience this, and any opinions why?
Happy hunting,
Jason
on a normal target, my shooting is pretty bad, but when I am stump shooting or shooting and cans and milk jugs, my shooting is good, I think its because all the rings and circles throw off concentration
Yes I have a simular problem...I have a hard time with the yellow inner rings of some paper targets for some reason.
But when shooting at bales of hay or my 3-D targets, I seem to do much better.
That's me all the way, tried to shoot a indoor winter league to keep up on my shooting when the season was over. I was all over the place, I am way more consistant with animal targets. I know consistancy on a bullseye can improve your shooting skills but personally I can't get to excited over a bullseye.
I think it has to do with the excitement(as Phil said) and ability to burn a hole in the target with your eye. When you are going to shoot a real animal there is never a lapse of concentration. At least it is that way with me. One problem that you can have is you are paying so much attention to the animal that you forget to take care of your shooting. That's where practice comes in. Gary
I used to say the same thing until I realized that the bullseye was actually revealing my true ability. Stump shooting and animals allowed me to be inches off and still feel pretty good. May not be the same for you. . .
Good story though: A friend of mine was golfing with Joe. Joe was cussing-mad as he was hitting the ball all over the place-slice, shank, etc. my friend finally spoke up and said, "I can tell you your problem." "Really," Joe retorted. My friend replies "You are just not that good. If you would accept it, you wouldn't be upset."
True story!
I just got done shooting with a friend in his back garden, his first time shooting a bow.
I was hitting the bag consistantly but not good grouping, hang a tennisball on a string in front and al of a sudden kept on hitting or brushing it I think you consentrate more on hitting a small target and even though the bag is behind it you still see it as missing where as on paper you never actually miss.
I'm with Dan. I have had a couple of guys tell me the same thing, and everytime I went hunting with them I ended up tracking gut-shot deer. Once you have form and concentration down it doesn't matter if your shooting at bullseyes, walnuts, stumps, squirrels or buffalo. And just so you don't think I'm ripping on anyone's shooting skills, I'm consistently mediocre. ;-)
QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
I used to say the same thing until I realized that the bullseye was actually revealing my true ability. Stump shooting and animals allowed me to be inches off and still feel pretty good. May not be the same for you. . .
Good story though: A friend of mine was golfing with Joe. Joe was cussing-mad as he was hitting the ball all over the place-slice, shank, etc. my friend finally spoke up and said, "I can tell you your problem." "Really," Joe retorted. My friend replies "You are just not that good. If you would accept it, you wouldn't be upset."
True story!
pretty much the same with me. If I just shoot my 3-d Targets I get lazy. I can be off a 5 or 6 inchs and still my self " that would have killed it" I try to shoot dots some every time I pratice. it makes me bare down.
KSDan - that's why we have FRIENDS...
..I ?think? :eek: :bigsmyl: :wavey:
what worked for me, was to make the Bullseye - smaller- a piece of colored tape works...
I agree with Dan and Adironack. If you can shoot it doesn't matter what you're shooting at. I think it's a matter of concentration or some sort of target panic. Maybe it's the lack of a definite reference point. I see it and hear it at our shop all of the time. Shooting at a bull definitely quantifies your shooting ability. JMHO (nut) :bigsmyl:
Well you guys are probably right. All I know is I don't shoot as well at paper. I also know I just flat need more practice!!!
Thats a problem I had when I shot 3-D'S for a local archery shop. Went to shooting for fun much better and more fun leave the score card at the sign in table. I bet your looking at the whole target and not picking a spot. I have this problem sometimes.
At 25 yds yesterday I placed three arrows tight to my Elk targets front leg with two touching. The other was within an inch. No bone involved in the hits. I then shot the bull at 25 yds and had a 5-6" group. 1 arrow in the middle, the other two at 3 and 9 roughly out side the 5" circle. The bull looks like an O with the middle white, a thick black ring, then the rest of the bag target is white.
Like I said bulls not so good....3-ds and critters, good. I wish I could explain.
Happy hunting,
Jason
3 D targets are deceptive in telling a person how good of a shot they are. The scoring areas are much bigger than on a bullseye target. Shoot a few arrows, get a 10 and a few 8's and we're content with that. But put those same arrows in their same respective positions on a blue face target and suddenly reality sets in. Those shots that looked good on a 3-D target don't score so well in reality.
Think of the "8" zone on a MacKensie deer. A far back "8" shot is a good 5 inches from the center of the 10 ring. Heck, on a blue face taget that'll put you in the next to outer ring.
Rigs, If you were speaking of inconsistent accuracy whether it be on a live squirrel or a live deer in a hunting situation in addition to inconsistent accuracy on a 3d target and various scoring ring targets in a tournament/target situation; I think it would be fair to say the inconsistency was a basic marksmanship issue.
But, there are ample examples where a proven marksman who was a champion at shooting scoring ring targets in a tournament situation yet would have great difficulty in shooting an obscure target w/ out scoring rings in a hunting environment. Conversely, there are ample examples of persons having proven their field marksmanship on obscure alive game animals in a hunting environment yet would have great difficulty in hitting a large brightly colored round target in a tournament environment. This would be a practice/training issue. This applies to many disciplines of marksmanship and is not limited to bows and arrows.
If you were to practice and train in pistol Bullseye to become a champion, you would greatly improve your basic pistol marksmanship skills. But, if you wanted to greatly improve your field marksmanship skills to accurately place a killing shot in a combat environment afield, the method of training and the simulation targets chosen would be far different than Bullseye. The same applies for the Feds and the cops who train to improve their field marksmanship skills by utilizing obscure targets w/ vaguely defined kill zones, not by using scoring ring targets in a target environment.
Shooting and killing an obscure human being in a life or death combat environment is of greater gravity and of greater consequence than killing an obscure game animal in a hunting environment, but shooting a game animal does have gravity and is of great consequence none the less. Both share many basic elements in method and both share differences with that of scoring ring targets in a tournament environment.
As it relates to archery, a great example of this was written by Saxton Pope about Young, Ishi, and himself. Both Pope and Young were above average shooting the American Round. Young was well above average. Ishi was absolutely aweful yet he could shoot rings around Pope and Young on game animals both large and small. Pope documented how Ishi was good at hitting game as small as flying birds out to 20yards. In addition, Ishi could outshoot Pope and Young in his form of stump shooting where he shot arrows through small rolling hoops and hit small balls made up to represent game animals. Pope wrote how Ishi was frustrated that he(Pope) was able to shoot the American round well yet was unable to hit a deer. In fact, Pope did not kill his first deer w/ a bow and arrow until after Ishi's death. Both did well in their own methods of training but both suffered when in the other man's court as the methods were different. One method proved better for bright colored scoring ring targets while the other method was better for obscure targets.
A good modern example is the Olympic archer who was filmed on a hunting trip where he missed an easy shot on a big deer. Again, this is a training/practice issue. If you want to better your skills at hitting obscure live game animals in a hunting environment, be creative and practice on targets that simulate the game you seek in an environment that duplicates your hunting environment, and hunt as often as you can. If you want to better your skills on an indoor tournament Bullseye, paractice on such targets in a simular environment and enter as many tournaments as you can. If you want to do well in both, practice both.
later,
Daddy Bear
I have a bird hunting friend who is the man on the skeet range (competively) and is one of the worst shots on upland birds I know. His ability on the skeet range is just differant than his ability in the field. He is more comfortable on the range,and I am more comfortable shooting at animals and animal targets. I totally agree that honing in your accuracy on a bullseye would greatly improve your skills in the field, but its not for everyone. I practice stump shooting,shooting 3ds @ 3d shoots and have had good success in the field on live animals,and @ 3d tournaments. Like Daddy Bear said if you want to do well in both, practice both. I'm a bowhunter not a target archer there is a differance.
Rigs - the thing that pops in my mind here is the color of your targets. I read somewhere long ago that white has the ability to make your eyes want to focus on infinity. Try shooting a black dot on some brown paper, (grocery bag?), and lets us know what happens. I would be interested. And not to add flame to anyone, but any comparison with weapons using sights is a whole different game.
When I am practicing I mostly stump shoot. It is more enjoyable to me. It also helps because the lighting is different on each shot and the yardage is also different. When hunting I focus on a small spot on the animal like a tuft of hair and aim at that. That way if I miss the tuft of hair a couple of inches I still kill the animal. Gary
Why can't the so called experts analyzing everything, accept the fact that many people are much more accurate on game than targets ? It all boils down to concentration !! It's hard to (for me and others) to really concentrate on a target round (3-d or whatever) through the whole shoot.! Whereas when hunting one usually only gets one shot and full concentration is directed on that one shot !!!!!
I do much better hunting, (one shot), then I do targets, (many ,many shots)..And I know many other bowhunters who are the same)
I don't know how to say it any better. Hope you all understand !
Don't know if this applies to sight shooters or gap shooters, as they have something other then the game (pick a spot) to concentrate on.
Just my thoughts based on having shot field, paa,3-d, and hunted for over 50 years),.!!!
A few years ago at Cloverdale, I had the opportunity to shoot with a fellow who claimed he was just out and out deadly on whitetails. Clean on out to 30 yards. Said he never missed.
Through the first five targets he had one 5 and 4 misses. (For those who don't know the scoring at C'dale, anywhere in the 8 ring or better buys you 5 points. Anything outside the 8 is a zero, and a miss is well...a miss).
I guess he just couldn't concentrate.
On paper targets, I DO NOT shoot as well as I do on 3D or game. I think it is a matter of aving difficulty picking a spot and I end up shooting at the entire target. It really isn't an issue for me because most of my practice is either stumpin' or at a 3D target. If I would concentrate more on paper and bullseye targets I am sure that I would improve. On the other side of the coin, There is a man in IN, who is in "Bowhunting's Whitetail Masters". Many big whitetails to his credit as well as elk, caribou and bear. If you were at a shoot with him and there is a large group of people, you would think he'd never shot a bow before. If it is just you and him, he is as good as it gets. Mike
I can totally understand and have been there myself, the first time shooting jitters with strangers or anyone that can make you nervous at a 3D or wherever. The best shots I typically make and can concentrate the most on are when I am totally alone. But that is not the point here. As I understand Rigs statement, it is shooting in the backyard, by himself. Good on elk targets, bad on a bullseye. There is something going on there. We are just trying to help him figure it out. The guys that say that they are bad at any kind of target period, even when shooting alone, but are killers on game at the same distances, those are hard for most people to believe because usually the "excitement" tends to make people worse. Where as it can happen I am sure, the fact it is not the norm creates doubt. How would such a person set reasonable distance standards for themselves?
I have found that if I shoot too much in my backyard my form degenerates. I think there are more of us that get stagnant shooting at the same old thing. Once it starts it gets into your form every where. Shooting at a deer target out in the woods by yourself can tell you what you can or cannot do. I have a friend that cannot shoot at three D events at all, when there are compound shooters watching him. When it is just us guys, he will say what is wrong with my form? We watch him shoot and we all agree, nothing is wrong and he quite often out shoots the group. He is good on standing deer and terrible on pheasants. Since he knows he is not good at the moving stuff, he does not shoot at moving deer. He also quit the Three D shoots, we all have our own targets and practice on our own. I would never declare that I was having a good year if I have not tested myself in the woods first, on small game or a rubber deer.
Rigs, I read this post on the other site, and I think you are underrating your ability on targets. What you described was a 6" or tighter group on the target, which is pretty good shooting barebow. As someone said, that would be all "4's" at least on and indoor target, which is a good score. I think guys who claim they don't do well at targets but great on game probably don't shoot any better on game, but game animals are bigger targets and the same level of accuracy is not needed to kill them as it is to win trophies. A hunter also can be picky about which shot he takes and at what distance, which isn't the case on the range. Also, instinctive shooters are going to have problems maintaining the concentration levels needed to consistently group on spots; they may shoot this one well, and the next one poorly, and so on. Since they have no aiming reference for different distances, they may have high and low misses when shooting groups for extended periods of time. But hunting, they only have to focus on one shot, and they can determine the distance and shot angle by being patient. All of this adds up to success on game, but not on targets. After all, instinctive shooting was not meant to win Olympic medals, but to work in the field.
Otto,
Not everyone is honest. Many people can't back up what they claim. There will always be bull****ters.! Then again, there are people who really do shoot better when hunting., be it "concentration", target panic, intimidated by shooting in front of others, etc.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ia Hawkeye:
Why can't the so called experts analyzing everything, accept the fact that many people are much more accurate on game than targets...
Which experts are we referring to here?
I'm not sure that's possible. If you can kill game with all the excitement, adrenaline, etc you should be able to smoke targets.
I've seen target shooters who couldnt hit a bull in the axx with a 2x4....but I've never seen a killer who couldnt kill paper too.
There has to be something else going on for you to be having trouble with targets. Are you shooting alone? Are you shooting well on your first couple shots, then relaxing? I recommend stump shooting instead for quality practice.
Just my thoughts.
I tend to think that the statement of being better on animals vs. targets is kind of a cop out. Let me explain my thinking.
The purpose of practicing on targets is to refine and develop your shot. To improve your form so that it becomes second nature. The spot your shooting at shouldn't matter whether it is paper, foam, or fur. I tend to believe that not shooting targets well is from simply not taking practice seriously. The trouble with that is poor practice leads to poor shooting.
Also, shooting at game requires less exact placement than a target. Honestly, you can kill a deer with a group the size of a dinner plate at ten yard. That same group on a paper target looks a lot worse and might lead some to believe they can't shoot targets well, when in reality its not much different.
Just practice, you can analyze it all you want, but it is just practice.
I like what some have said about making it as real as possible. I like 3Ds in the back yard from a tree stand or from ground kneeling positions in the brush, different angles and so forth. Obscure the target with brush. close to season I get laughed at cause I have gear on, pack and all. Even at the Fire Station I will put on my pack (take a good ribbin from the my crew!) and try to make a hunting situation.
While I do believe you can be good on animals and not on targets. I am no expert at all and am no way judging, not my right. But I personaly would not feel comfortable taking to the woods after a live animal if I couldn't strike a 3D target well and consistently in the back yard in similar hunting situations.
I really feel confident if I haven't shot for a couple/few days and walk out and place the first arrow n the goodies in a simulated hunting situation.
Just practice, it will happen.
J
Story:
When I first started trad shooting (16yrs old) I had a gotten real good at dots and bullseyes. Thought I was the stuff! Then I bought a 3D target and STANK! I would put them over the back, under the belly hit in the behind - just stank.
My father was watching me one day cause he knew I was frustrated. He was a Marine and shot on the teams - didn't care at all for bows - he sat and watched me get frustrated that afternoon - then looked at me and said "stop shooting at the deer, shoot at his heart." basically pick a spot. He placed a sticky dot on the heart and I smoked it. Took off the dot and I focused and smoked it. Felt GREAT.
Still will catch myself not picking a spot and I know it soon as the string slips away :knothead: . That is where I think I see your dilemma. When I have a live critter in front of me, through all the adrenaline and all the nerves I am focused - period.
Later
J
P.S.
My Father was NOT a bowhunter and never picked up a bow. He was a rifleman. Wondered why in the world I liked bows so much, for him it was the 500 yard mark over 25 yard mark! Shooting is shooting though.