Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Buemaker on January 13, 2022, 06:37:44 AM
-
I see now that some bowyers do not fill the pores in riser woods before finish spraying leaving pores visible. Take a look at this picture. I am not quite sure what I think, any opinions on this?
This guy makes some nice work by the way.
-
Actually Bue, I like the looks of grain in a bow.
I really do not like a glassy smooth high gloss finish.
But that's just my opinion.
-
Those Look nice! It all depends on the wood and grain of the wood. Some I like glossy, such as Bloodwood. It makes the irridescence of the wood show better, others I like matte. Depends on the piece.
-
I agree with Roy -- I LIKE grain in wood. Otherwise I'd use cast plastic or paint.
-
For me it depends on the wood. Wenge as an example, IMO needs fill
-
For me it depends on the wood. Wenge as an example, IMO needs fill
x2
-
I fill all of my exposed wood. Some don't need much and some need a lot. I use a Mask epoxy with a fast hardener. JF
-
If you don't care for smooth glossy finish then urn your gun down to 10 psi and kinda spatter about three final coats then you don't notice the pores as much.
-
Open pores drive me nuts on a final finish- You could have a matte finish or glossy finish comletely void of them. I would raher have them completely sealed and level knowing that the finish will protect the bow the best it can under the harshest conditions.
-
Open pores drive me nuts on a final finish- You could have a matte finish or glossy finish comletely void of them. I would raher have them completely sealed and level knowing that the finish will protect the bow the best it can under the harshest conditions.
That's me too
-
My finishes aren’t perfect, but I do my best to fill all grain and pores. I think a smooth finish shows off the grain and colors better
Never fails that there are few “divets” that show up when finish is applied.
-
Yup, if it doesn't run, chrome it..
:laughing:
-
Chrome too chiney :bigsmyl:
-
The finish on a bow is the most important factor when selling to the public. Trust me on this, you can have the Worlds best bow but If the finish is subpar you will be doomed. A class AAAA finish is the most important factor in selling bows.
It is the diff is in a 500.00 bow and a 1000.00 bow. Also it shows knowledge in wood working and technique skills.
-
Gary a good finish on a well designed bow will add to selling it.
I have had two high end (price wise bows) that where not that good of shooters. But the fit and finish was second to none.
So I feel good design that fits the buyer may be more important.
2 cents
-
Crooked Stic, Yes a proven design from a well known Bowyer, I agree.
But to a Potential Buyer that is looking at bows, say at a Trad Shoot it will be the bow with the best finish that will get noticed first. This is what I notice first at least and I could be all wrong.
-
Crooked Stic, Yes a proven design from a well known Bowyer, I agree.
But to a Potential Buyer that is looking at bows, say at a Trad Shoot it will be the bow with the best finish that will get noticed first. This is what I notice first at least and I could be all wrong.
I agree Gary. It’s hard to test drive a bow without looking at it first.
Every part of the build deserves my best effort, design to finish.
-
I’ve only finished a few so far with Krystal dull, but it looks amazing. I think someone recommended a sanding sealer be applied first. I have some nitrocellulose that I got to use as a sanding sealer for pens, but what do you guys use to fill the grain before finishing? Also, do you only apply it to the wood?
-
Gloss epoxy and yes I only put it on the wood. JF
-
Jeff, Can you recommend a specific product? I think you mentioned mask epoxy?
-
This is what a friend of mine out in Olympia Washington suggested. Works great. Little more expensive but it works great. Then you can put whatever scheen you want on top of this once it's all filled and sanded
-
Cool, thank you. Are you from the Olympia area? I live in Tacoma. First time (and last) time living in a city,
-
I'm in Iowa. I've visited the northwest.
-
Yeah, after I posted that I noticed it says Iowa under your name. Lol. Is the important part of the epoxy base coat that it’s low viscosity/high penetrating? I was looking online for MAS epoxy. I’m going to give it a try on my next finish. I’ve got a bunch of bows I made that are just waiting for the finish coat, and I’ve got a couple I sprayed without a base coat. love the way the Krystal finish comes out, but it seems like it might be even better with a sealer under the spray.
-
You will like it. Measure it out. Apply with a gray foam brush. After one coat sets and is just a little sticky like tape, mix up another batch and put on the next coat. 4-7 coats, pending on the wood.
-
You do want some kind of base coat under Krystal. It is real easy to spray but not the best filler. And if not base coated will shrink into pores over time.
Is the MAS stuff different from finishing epoxy.?
-
Yes it is for sealing. Plus it is very clear. It doesn't get milky with multiple coats, which is perfect for sealing. You can spray a satin or gloss finish on and it will look great.
-
I’m looking for a comparable product now. There’s a penetrating wood hardener/sealer epoxy that’s sold as a marine product for repairing rotting wood on boats. That stuff seems about right. There’s also a west systems 105 resin that has several options for hardener, one of which is clear, but it’s over $2 an ounce. I wonder if the type of epoxy resin used for the river tables and such might work? I think it can be thinned. How long does your stuff take to get tacky?
-
Do you use it on the limb edges as well?
-
I use it on All the exposed wood. Usually I put on another coat in 30-45 minutes. Note definitely measure. That's why I use syringes. 1 for A and 1 for B
You won't have 20 minutes to brush on, using the fast hardener. It doesn't take long to coat a bow.
I learned all about this marine epoxy from Richard Korte from Olympia Washington
-
Mike L. you have a Smooth-On distributor nearby in Kent, Reynolds Advanced Materials. You can get Epoxamite with three different hardeners and an epoxy specific thinner to make a surface coating. I'm not sure why some epoxy's are considered "marine grade"
if you compare specs of a marine and non-marine epoxy, there does not seem to be any difference. All epoxy is waterproof and none is UV resistant without additives.
Another alternative for pore filling is shellac. A 2#or 3# cut of dewaxed will fill and add a nice luster and depth, that is lacking in most grain fillers. It can also be used a a toner for subtle color shifts.
-
I wonder if you can spray Krystal clear coat on top of shellac? I think I saw somewhere that shellac works well under oil based and water borne finishes. I guess as long as it doesn’t melt off when it rains, it should be good. I’m looking forward to comparing one that’s got a sanding sealer on it to one that doesn’t. The finish coat was a huge improvement even without it.
-
I use de-waxed shellac under conversion varnish all the time. Its a universal sealer and bridge coat.
Works under and over, solvent, water, lacquer, epoxy, you name it.
-
I’ll have to do some googling, cause I don’t know if the shellac I have on hand has any wax in it. I didn’t think so, but I don’t know for sure. I got it for a cutting board, but ended up going down the tung oil/beeswax/mineral oil rabbit hole, and I’ve been chasing the perfect beeswax finish since. I’ve got one big cutting board that I’ve stripped and refinished no fewer than 5 times.
-
I hope this epoxy is all it’s cracked up to be, cause if I knew I could have used shellac I wouldn’t have shelled out $100.
-
I think the Bullseye SealCoat is what you want.
-
The use of hide glue sizes in the finishing of quality furniture surfaces is not commonly known by the public at large. In this process a dilute warm hide glue solution at approximately one pound of glue per gallon of water is applied to the wood surface and let dry. The compression grain is raised and the glue fills the porous exposed wood structure. On sanding a glass-like surface is obtained which is stable against moisture changes and which takes a lasting final stain or finish.
This is according to instructions by Bjorn Thordahl who is probably the one who knows the most about hide glue in America.
-
You need to use Shellac on these wood before using a oil base finish
This is from the wood data base
Shellac sticks to everything, and everything sticks to shellac.
https://www.wood-database.com/finishing-exotic-tropical-hardwoods/
Below is a non-exhaustive list of woods that have heartwood extractives that tend to interfere with the curing process of oil-based finishes.
Blackwood, African
Bloodwood
Bocote
Cedar, Eastern Red
Cocobolo
Cumaru
Ebony
Goncalo Alves
Ipe
Katalox
Kingwood
Lignum Vitae
Macacauba
Padauk
Pau Ferro
Purpleheart
Rosewoods
Teak
Tulipwood
Verawood
Ziricote
-
It takes FOREVER but I use a high quality oil spar varnish finish-And like Mike L i went down the rabbit hole when I made my own years ago Lol-
First couple coats are thinned 50/50 with Naptha to seal the wood then full strength to build up-Lots of wet sanding and time but the finish is durable and lasts for years. Maybe Ill try shellac or hide glue for the initial buildup? time is my enemy :banghead:
I have always worried about some of the conversion varnishes, automotive finishes being too hard and unflexible and eventually cracking,peeling-Remember the old fullerplast?
-
I have some Shellac flakes and some Everclear 190 proof, you can drink the Everclear and dissolve the flakes too :jumper:
-
If you are buying premixed shellac, get what Stic mentioned. I do what Max does, dry flakes and Everclear.
But don't drink the Everclear with the shellac in it, or you will need to top coat your mouth.
-
I know the epoxy that I mentioned above is expensive. But it was well worth it. If that's what you get. Get a hold of me when you go to use it I can help you through it.
It was quite the game changer for me. I used to use big Jimms Buffalo glossy epoxy for my fill work, but that took a while. I still use glossy epoxy after I've done my fill work with the mas epoxy. Or what I like the most is just brain helmsman spar varnish indoor outdoor urethane satin sheen on before I do my marking and signing. As my final coat. I use the helmsman because anybody can find it later down the road if they get a little light scratch in it that they want to fix they can sand it spray it and be done. You need to have to scratch it pretty hard to get through the epoxy fill.JF
-
Max good article on the shellac.
Too much Everclear will pickle ur body :laughing:
-
https://www.shellac.net/dewaxed_shellac.html
-
That’s where I got mine flem
-
Im using Blacktail finish it is a 3 part finish, on the last coat you mix the flattening agent so you can have satin , flat or skip the flattener and go with glossy its makes beautiful finish .
-
All I use anymore is Helmsman outdoor Spar Urethane.
-
All I use anymore is Helmsman outdoor Spar Urethane.
Do you brush or spray it? I've used it on a couple bows but had issues with runs.
Mark
-
I used to apply about 6 coats of Minwax Wipe-on Poly, and it creates a beautiful deep hand rubbed finish. But now I apply 2 coats of Tung Oil, then 2 coats of coating epoxy, rubbed with 000 steel wool between all coats. Then top coat with 4 coats sprayed on satin lacquer. No pores and it will last years.
-
How is the Blacktail stuff for spraying ? And expensive?
Gonna try the shellac under Krystal on a test piece soon.
-
There are tons of different kinds of wood finish out there, and some are really durable in the outdoor elements, and some are not…. Epoxy base finish is hard to beat for longevity, but it has a tendency to yellow out over the years. A lot of finishes do that, and it looks cool on some wood species. On darker woods that yellowing takes away from the look.
Filling grain slots you have to think about shrinkage. I use lacquer for a sanding sealer a lot. But on some wood species it just doesn’t fill the grain well at all.
-
My tablet ran out of juice on my post…..
Spraying Clear coating is a trade in itself that takes a lot of experience to get a good constant product. Ive had a few buddies over the years that were auto painters, and using the right equipment and the right products is critical. Every different product you use has its own characteristics. Some need reducers, and some don’t….. but the cool part about using auto clear coating vs epoxy finishing bows is that it doesn’t yellow out over time, and stays crystal clear……
but…. It’s a huge learning curve learning what product works best. air gun settings and proper tip size, and when to use reducer and when not to… how close to the surface to spray, and fan adjustment itself can make a huge difference….. I prefer the auto clearing over any other finish for bows.
-
I've used auto clear. Back when I was in the auto body repair industry. We used Dupont clear. Very shiny and slick. Yes it has sunscreens in it. I don't use it anymore though.
-
In a past life, I restored and painted old Broncos. Unless you have a production spray booth, you want an air dry clear coat as opposed to heated booth force dry.
Several makers, I used DuPont and HOK,make a "snap dry" clear. Dust free in as little as 15 minutes. This helps hobbies and others with less than perfect environment acheive dust free paint jobs .
Especially useful on small panels or projects. Be great for bows!
I just used the DuPlacolor Matte wheel finished on a riser the other day.
I was really impressed with how it looks! We will see how it holds up.
-
There are a bunch of different auto clear coats that are designed for force dried booth applications and production. Fast activators, medium, and slow are options too. most of those need reducers and kick off really fast....Some of them are a nightmare to work with and are REAL expensive.
I've found a product i like a lot that is pretty user friendly in my small spray booth that doesn't cost half of what some of these clear coats do. Its called "Euroclear" made by Pro Line performance products out of Olympia Wa. In 70-90 degree booth temp you can run this through HVLP gun with a 1.4 tip with no reducer at all. 4:1 material to activator ratio. It was referred to me by another bowyer that has used it for years.... Good stuff!