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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: SS Snuffer on January 01, 2022, 11:42:55 AM
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I have always shot carbon arrows and want to make wooden.
I now shoot a 40 lb. longbow with Beman CenterShot 600 spine 30 in. Arrows, 275 grs. up front (75 gr. insert 200 gr. Single bevel Grizzly). 28 in. draw RH.
I would like to shoot Surewood Douglas Shafts at the same length or ceders shafts. I just don't know what spine shaft to order. I have tuned allot of bows with carbon so I understand about arrow length verses point weight and know allot about carbons but was wandering if any of you could get me started down the wood path. Any advise is very welcome.
Have to have a winter project to work on or the wife will put me to REAL work.
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From my limited experience with heavy front end loads, I would start with 15-20# above bow weight. A test set would be the best option to start. Personally I shot 80-85# tapered shafts with a 66# recurve and/or longbow with 190-250 grain broadheads.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2:
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I switched to wooden arrows spring of 2020, and then to heavier wooden arrows with as much FOC as am able to get with a 30.5" draw. I am going to list what I shoot. You have a 28" draw, which is going to give you more options than I have. I have tried the following wood species, and I will give you my list of pros and cons and why I like Douglas Fir the best.
Port Orford Cedar
Lighter than Fir, which with the way you build arrows, you can get more FOC. They are also easily straightened and tend to stay straight when finished properly. Cons, hard to find in high spines, which are needed due to more weight up front. They also are not as durable in my opinion as Douglas Fir
Sitka Spruce - heavier than Port Orford Cedar, lighter than Douglas Fir. They are stronger than cedar, available in higher spines than cedar, and they also straighten easily and stay straight.
Hickory. Much heavier than Fir, Cedar, and Sitka. Need heat to straighten. Don't always stay straight. Also available in higher spines.
Douglas Fir = my favorite. Easily straightened, tend to come very straight (Surewood shafts & Wapiti are what I buy). They come in higher spines than cedar, and often higher than Sitka. I have much less breakage at the point taper when hitting hard objects such as the metal piece of rebar that my 3d targets are held up by. Cedar and Sitka break every time a direct hit is made on this type of material at the point taper when launched from my current set up.
I am currently shooting a Primal Tech longbow, 41# at 30". I shoot 75/80 spined Douglas Fir - 30.5" BOP. I have 100 grain woody weights, and 200 grain Grizzly broadheads. 290 -310 up front depending on the weight the Grizzlies show up at. I am guessing that you could shoot arrows as short as 28.5" if needed with woody weights. 75 grain woody weights add about 1/2" to the back of the broadhead. 100 grain woody weights add about 5/8' - 3/4" to the back of the broadhead. My arrows weigh from 765 - 815 grains. Wood arrows can have as much as 50 - 60 grains difference per dozen in the same spine. 70/75 and 65/70 spined arrows will be lighter. Running numbers on the Stu Miller Dynamic spine chart say that my setup would be close on your bow, that you would have similar dynamic spine with a 30" BOP 70/75 and a 29" BOP 65/70. You are going to have 19 -20% FOC with the 75/80 setup and more than that with the lighter spines. I hope this helps
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I shoot a Yellowstone Longbow 64”[email protected] my arrows are Surewood Shafts 60/65 29” with 160gr up front and my arrow is just a little stiff
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Here’s a photo of a 100 grain woodie weight behind a 200 grain Grizzly for reference.
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FWIW I shoot 60/65 surewoods 30 bop out of 51lb @ 29 with 160 gr heads...fly like darts
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Depends on how much weight you plan to put up front. With just a "regular" wood arrow with 125 or 160 point I would guess 50-55 depending on how center shot the bow is. A test kit from 3rivers is the best way to find out for sure. I've never front loaded woodies so I'm not sure what you'll need with woodie weight, etc. I've done pretty good with 60/65 out of mine with 160 points. But regardless of what you put up front, they won't penetrate like carbon.
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Well, my first advice would be to not worry about the extreme weight up front at first. Wood arrows are not like carbon. I would try some 50-55# spine since your draw length is 28". Learn how they shoot and experiment with regular points from 125 up to about 160.
After some time you can try to up the point weight more if you want. I don't see any need for it with wood arrows.
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I forgot to add that I shoot 11/32” in shaft diameter. This helps keep the shaft diameter from being larger than the broadhead ferrule. Important for penetration. I get pass through on Whitetails with my setup. I wouldn’t worry about penetration. Last doe I shot, the arrow broke the humerus bone on impact and buried to the 20” mark. Dropped dead after a 35 yard sprint.
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Given the bows you have listed near your avatar, I assume your longbow is a hibrid and that you're using a low stretch string on it. If so I agree with those who said 50-55# in wood should work. Keep in mind, too, that wood is substantially heavier than carbon so you can get about the same weight arrow without adding a lot of front weight. 125 to 160 grains up front should get you in the 500-550 grain range overall arrow weight with a Cedar or Doug Fir shaft.
Regardless of the wood, any given 5# spine range can vary in weight by up to 100 grains, so you have some choice as to how heavy a physical weight you start with. For example, though Doug Fir is generally heavier than POC, the heaviest cedars will be heavier than the lightest Doug Fir. You just need to tell the vendor what you want.
Keep in mind, too, that if you go real heavy physical weight, you might need to up the spine another 5# range as well. Has to do with a law of physics. An item at rest tends to stay at rest. A heavy arrow at rest at full draw, resists moving forward as quickly as would a lighter arrow, and doing so causes it to bend more as the string imparts its energy to the rear of the arrow. That's why folks need to in crease the spine when they add woody weights or heavy broadheads out front. Adding the weight along the entire length of the shaft also calls for a heavier spine.
All that being said, staying in the mid-weight physical range for your selected spine should work out just fine.
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I shoot a 41@28 recurve with a SBD string that I draw 28 inches and can shoot both 45-50 and 50-55 cedars cut 29 inches bop with 125 grain broadheads.
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I like 50/55 or maybe even 55/60 given that you want a 30 inch arrow and are more than likely using a FF string and you seem to want a heavier head.
I as well would not front load like the carbon arrow.A 150 grain to 175 grain head should give you plenty of weight.
Wood does not react quite the same way with a heavy front load of 250-300 grains like alot of guys like to use with carbon
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I am in same boat. 45@28 and I want a 450 grain arrow. I am going to start with the 5# rule I call it. 5#’s of spine for a shaft over 28”, 5# of spine for FF string, 5# of spine for points over 145 grains. Probably more like center cut of bow, carbon limbs, etc. But My issue maybe an arrow getting heavier than I prefer. If I hunt around here the deer and Javalina an’it that big anyway.
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I would also recommend having the arrow shafts back tapered. On an 11/32” shaft, the shaft will be tapered down in the back 9” or 10” to a 5/16” nock. I would do this on both a heavy arrow/high FOC and a light arrow build.
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I believe that is 5 pounds per inch over 28 inches.So 30 inch arrow would be 10 pounds heavier spine according to the theory I was taught many moons ago.
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I think 50 - 55# spine is a pretty good starting place. I have shot wooden arrows almost the whole time I have shot archery. However, my setup is a bit weird. I am not impressed by exceptionally heavy heads, at least for the whitetails in my area. I don't hunt bigger or tougher game. I have a short 25" draw but prefer long (29" BOP) arrows equipped with 125 grain heads that are 50 - 55# spine. My bow is 53# at 28". I have often been told there are better specs that I could use, but this works for me. My Hill bows seem to adequately shoot just about anything I use from 50 to 60# spine. Play around and you will find something ideal for your rig. It may be just my prejudice in favor of wood, but I think it is more versatile than aluminum or carbon.
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Don't know if this was mentioned but if your LB is not cut to center then you might go with under spine.
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Tapered arrows or footed help with FOC on wood arrows. Been trying tapered Red Balau for some good weighty woods.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2:
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I would also recommend having the arrow shafts back tapered. On an 11/32” shaft, the shaft will be tapered down in the back 9” or 10” to a 5/16” nock. I would do this on both a heavy arrow/high FOC and a light arrow build.
I shoot the tapered cedar from Wapiti Archery POC. Great arrows. My 50-55 weighs 478 grains with 125 grain points at 29 inches bop. The 45-50 are 10 grains less. With that long bow, depending on string and riser cut, you might find a 45-50 will shoot great.
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An important factor with regards to arrow spine is how "centershot" is your bow. Mine is 1/4" past center and, combined with my shooting style and form, I can get as much as 20lb very weak and very stiff shafts to fly as true as can be.
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Thanks guys for all the help. I learned something from each post.
I'm going to look for Douglas fir test kit and also Woody weight test kit. I'm going to use these in a Kanati longbow
that is cut to center with a 8 strand FF string, 40 lb. bow 3 4 in. 30 in. BOP arrow fletch RH sorry I didn't put that in my 1st post.
I think I will start out with full length 55-60 Douglas fir Surewoods premium Tapered shafts if I can't find a test kit.
I'll be shooting Grizzly broad heads so I'll have allot of different weight heads to pick from. I'm also getting a field point test kit. If I get them to bare shaft tune will anything change after I crest and finish them? If you guys think 55-60 is to much or lite let me know. All I can find right now is the Cedar test kit from 3 Rivers so far.
Thanks so much!!
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I would get a test kit 45-50 50-55 55-60 from Wapiti arrows and get tapered shafts. I shoot the same specs from Holm Made River Runner and I like the 45-50's. I draw a true 28 inches. At 30 inches long on the shaft who knows maybe you can get a way with that shaft. Most people tend to shoot arrows that are too stiff and most have a draw length shorter than they think. You will get better spined arrows from Wapiti. Plus you can get tapered on the back 9 inches. Curious as to why you want an arrow that long?
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Thanks Jeff
I just ordered the tapered test shafts from Wapiti.
30 in. Arrows are what I used in carbon and I can always cut them down. I'll let you know what works best. Thanks
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One note about bare shaft testing with wooden arrows. You will need to be close to tuned with a fletched arrow before you try it. I learned this the hard way by breaking several in the first few shots when I was going through the test kit process.
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Thanks James
That is exactly what I would have done. Then I would have had broken arrows.