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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Crooked Stic on November 06, 2021, 06:30:19 PM
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Has anyone used carbon twill. That would be the 45 layup.
Supposedly does nothing for stiffness but great for eliminating twist in a curve.
Putting it over the glass. Would you subtract the thickness of the carbon out of the core stack.
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Following this one. Have some thoughts but I'd rather hear from them what's been there and done it.
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What are your thoughts ?
Have talked to one bowyer that does but I like to find out more before I jump in.
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Stabil-kore is not 45* and it works
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Max it don't look cool tho :goldtooth:
The 45 stuff will make them rock solid to.
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:thumbsup:
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Has anyone used carbon twill. That would be the 45 layup.
Supposedly does nothing for stiffness but great for eliminating twist in a curve.
Putting it over the glass. Would you subtract the thickness of the carbon out of the core stack.
45/45 carbon twill is going to be nothing but stiff. It's mostly used to make rigid panels/parts.
You can get it pretty thin though for cosmetic (cool look) .008"
Curious about the process you will use to put it over the glass?
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Stabil-kore is not 45* and it works
I used stabilcore and very thin 0.008 45/45 weave.
The 45/45 does a LOT more to stiffness than the stabilcore.
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Truth about the 45/45
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Not quite sure, are you going for looks or performance. I guess you can get very thin twill to go over glass for looks, don't think it would do much if anything for performance since your putting on another glue line with something that thin. You can get the thicker carbon twill specifically for backing instead of glass for performance and looks.
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I think I would be putting the carbon under the glass for a few reasons. First it would make sense to put the more elastic glass on top of the stiff/ brittle carbon, which would also give it the coveted look of depth and its going to be a b*#@h to get a smooth surface if that carbon is on top of the glass unless you are doing an infusion or laying it up on a smooth, prepped tool surface.
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All the super curve guys do it. If you want performance you need the uni for stiffness also
I am getting .020 twill from Rosewood. Happen to know a bowyer using it on all his curves for lateral strength over glass.
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I think I would be putting the carbon under the glass for a few reasons. First it would make sense to put the more elastic glass on top of the stiff/ brittle carbon, which would also give it the coveted look of depth and its going to be a b*#@h to get a smooth surface if that carbon is on top of the glass unless you are doing an infusion or laying it up on a smooth, prepped tool surface.
I m wondering if it is 45/45 weave or pre preg?
I would be inclined to put it under the glass as well. Also wondering if it's really needed front and back 🤔
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The carbon look does sell well with a specific group of archers I think.
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It is not prepeg. One side is shinny. Some sort of resin I guess. the glue side is flat black and actually pretty course . The lateral twist control is what I am after and prolly one strip would be good on the belly then could veneer the front. For now I am gonna use front and back.
(https://i.imgur.com/PMlTusd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qU71b4F.jpg)
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I've made a few bows with the .040, 45/45 layered carbon weave made just for the backing, instead of backing with glass, I'm wondering if putting .020 carbon weave over glass has more benefit unless the bow is already done and you want to add it on, I've not tried that yet, if you do it let us know how it turns out please
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I have built a pretty hooky Recurve with 0.02 45/45 Carbon in top of 0.03 Glass in Back and belly.
The Result was very torsional Stiff.
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The thicker .040 layerd 45/45 carbon weave just being used for backing instead of glass has good torsional stability by it's self, so not sure of benefit of adding .020 on top of glass on a new build, witch makes the glass part of the core and perhaps more glue lines. There's all sorts of designs and layups that can be used to make a bow, keeps it interesting.
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Carbon, that replaces Glass usually has at least 50% UD fibers in it.
Mostly it's about 50:50 UD and 45/45 or the 45/45 ist more Like a cosmetic layer and is more Like 20:80.
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It is not prepeg. One side is shinny. Some sort of resin I guess. the glue side is flat black and actually pretty course . The lateral twist control is what I am after and prolly one strip would be good on the belly then could veneer the front. For now I am gonna use front and back.
(https://i.imgur.com/PMlTusd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qU71b4F.jpg)
Stic, did you cut that from a roll or purchase like that?
Where did you source it?
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The Rosewood Shop. And it is layed up in a big square or rectangle and cut at 45. So the manufacture has some waste to deal with.
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The Rosewood Shop. And it is layed up in a big square or rectangle and cut at 45. So the manufacture has some waste to deal with.
:thumbsup:
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Show us what you are working on?
Your using it for limb twist ?
Bid recurve? :thumbsup:
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45/45 is the weave of the twill. Those pre-made flat panels are either laid up wet and vacuum pressed or vacuum infused on a flat smooth surface. The weight of the fabric determines the amount of resin it will consume and the ultimate thickness. The rough side could be post finishing, but it is most likely from the release fabric (peel ply)
which allows the excess resin to be drawn away and leaves a textured finish for post bonding.
Stic, I am curious why you say it was cut at 45deg?
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Flem because the ends of the strips I got were not trimmed and still had the 45 on them.
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:thumbsup:
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I think I've done 5 or 6 bows using it only on the back instead of glass, I could get it from a few different bowyers years ago, and they were not all made up the same, but all worked out well, torsional ability was better on some versus others, and all are pretty quick.
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Call me obsessive, but I was still having a hard time wrapping my head around the angle thing. So I got out my box of reinforcements for visual confirmation. Here it is; 45/45deg fabric cut at 45deg, becomes 0/90deg. Plain weave twill, 0/90deg, cut at 45deg, becomes 45/45deg.
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I think so Flem, I do not know the specifics on the lay up as far as layers used and how there oriented, but I did try some that was not made specifically for bows at the 90 degree that was twill woven and it broke across at a 90 degree and the other is a low poundage bow that is nothing special and am not shooting it, don't think it will hold up, I should just toss it. I think the 90 degree is not as strong as the 45 degree jmho. I made a recurve using uni carbon under the 45/45 weave carbon with a bamboo core that's a real screamer, and some with foam core's that are sweat shooters, I'm gonna mess with it more in the future to see what design and layup seems best. I must say I've only used it as backing instead of glass. It does cost more than glass you'll have to justify for yourself if it's worth it but I'm all about making good better if I can just because I enjoy it, like alot of guys here I'm not really making bows to sell, just for my on pleasure, maybe a couple a year, if some one wants one that I will part with all the better.
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Okay the twill does nothing for stiffness. Or making the limb have more draw weight. Got to have uni for that. The less mass weight of the carbon vs. core may gain you some performace. And the fact you can go more aggressive on design. And be able to profile the tip to have more taper and even more forward taper and still keep them pulling straight.
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Stic, I think Mark was saying that your twill, cut at 45deg should be strong and fast.
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What Flem said.
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Ima fix in to lay one limb up in the AM. :clapper:
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This conversation has helped me think about another recipe to use on my next bow, more than likely next spring when the garage is a little warmer, thank s all for the input, what a great web site. Stic let us know how it turns out
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I got both limbs yesterday glued. So tomorrow I can get close to seeing what I have.
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Tomorrow. Turn the lights on and burn the midnight oil we need to know.
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I got both limbs yesterday glued. So tomorrow I can get close to seeing what I have.
:thumbsup:
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The tip overlays curing and will be ready to work with today. I can tell you after profiling the tip tapers and a two handed grasp no twist at all.
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Chubby Checker would be pissed... :tongue:
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:wavey:
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No mid nite oil here. Don't do mornings like I used to.
Got a string on it today and riser ruffled out. Fade tiller is off. Can't sand the twill gonna work on the sides of the strong limb and see what happens.
Other than that rock solid.
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Yeah Mike my mornings start much later than the used to. Hope you get the tiller where you want without to much work. I take it you can't sand the carbon itself? Did your draw weight come in as expected?
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Missed the weight by one pound light 41 wanted 42 so pretty good there. Yeah sanding the carbon too much messes with the looks of the twill.
Got some cut offs and will experiment with how much sanding can be done.
May shim under the bolt if need be.
This golden years has got me down today tho sciatic nerve flare up :banghead:
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That stuff is not really made to be sanded, good luck!
Hate that sciatica. Takes a while for those nerves to calm down after they get irritated.
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Can you round the edges on the carbon like trapping?
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Yes corners can be rounded
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Only one pound off that's great. Did you make allowances in your stack or just figure it like glass?
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The twill equaled .040 so so .040 less core but same stack.
.020 twill
.030 red core tuff
.001 FT core taboo. 075 butt
1 prll aboo. Can't remember thickness
.030 core tuff
.020 twill
It rocks this big square bag target with a 600 carbon. Ended up 40 @28
The fade tiller is not text book 3/8s but grouped good.
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Pictures please stic
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Hold on Maxy
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Okay got some pics. the riser still needs some sanding.
Pretty happy with it. Just need to be sure and check the lams in about three places to be sure they measure right (tiller).
It has .020 less glass than a normal layup so I guess that may add a little to performance.
The shinny side will take 220 okay to get a bit of tooth for finish. And it does take the twist out. I feel the 45/45 two ply is way better than stablecore. Dont think you would need two on a normal curve. But those super curves yes. Sooo here ya go Maxy
(https://i.imgur.com/bjYyORP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vLRBpcd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8yXvcSJ.jpg)
The block
(https://i.imgur.com/VB3rrBd.jpg)
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It's got a nice look :bigsmyl:
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Awesome job Stic :thumbsup: Looks like you got it finished out real nice.
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Very nice Mike.
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I like that green!
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Got some vinyl sealer on the riser this morning good and thick with foam brush.
Those colored stripes are single spectraply sheets. Dyed birch I think.
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Vinyl sealer w/foam brush????
You must like sanding :biglaugh:
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Looking good Mike 👍
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So Stic how does it feel when you shoot it, smooth ,quick, ect.
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Flem 000 steel wool gets the worse then sanding.
Smooth and shoots good and maybe a bit faster.
Cut a bit more past center than normal for me so a little stiffer arrow works.
Anyhoo here ya go---
(https://i.imgur.com/jUAyQ5o.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WmjqIO4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nMmlkWz.jpg)
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Damn Stic! Thats really nice looking. I love those colors, they are bold and they look good together :thumbsup:
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Good job, Stic... Glad it worked out for yah... Do we get to see the whole bow??
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Stic what kind of vinyl sealer are you using and why.
I like the way the tips look .
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Nice job Mike! :thumbsup:
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Great job, Mike..
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The sanding sealer is for Tbird. If you put it on thick it fills good. And sometimes Krystal over bare wood in time will shrink in the pores.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VYQtpGKmKU
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Lookin good thar Mr Mike
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Nice...
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Thanks. I am only drawing 26 on a good day sooo.
If ya look at the vdo on your phone it's better on Utube.
Maybe need to turn the phone sideways ???
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Looks good, sounds good and shoots good..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Thanks Roy and I like it
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Done another bow with the twill on the front only no belly carbon. It has just a twig movement. I feel this is all that is needed. Unless your curves get really radical.
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Done another bow with the twill on the front only no belly carbon. It has just a twig movement. I feel this is all that is needed. Unless your curves get really radical.
Pictures?
Mark
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No pics yet. :archer2:
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Sounds good and quick. JF
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Hmm did find a couple of pics. Makin this one for a buddy tryna show him the grip size.
(https://i.imgur.com/StHKl1j.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/M64T59z.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LyQ6m9u.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8oG0Dfv.jpg)
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How do you get your limb tip overlays so clean, so there’s no glue where it transitions to the limb? I don’t see any sign of sanding on the limb side. I mask, but there is always some glue to try to scrape off.
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Damn stic those limbs look like they have a lot of curve in them. :thumbsup:
You got a better picture later?
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The curve is not so much when strung. But plenty of preload. Really good manners after the shot.
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Here ya go Max with 8 in. brace.
(https://i.imgur.com/AGgHLnu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UIn5ql2.jpg)
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I did not take many pics before I shipped this one today.
63 in. 45 @ 31
(https://i.imgur.com/cTV39tw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cJEPcSZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hT8WA5Y.jpg) double knucklehead ache
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Nice Bows stic :thumbsup:
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How do you get your limb tip overlays so clean, so there’s no glue where it transitions to the limb? I don’t see any sign of sanding on the limb side. I mask, but there is always some glue to try to scrape off.
I’m not gonna answer for stic, but I use a small chainsaw file for most of the work on my overlays and just a little bit of fine sanding to finish.
If you can get the feel for it, it works great. I push the file from the limb towards the overlay. With the right pressure the file will skate across the glass and cut the glue and wood overlays. Then there is minimal fine sanding to finish the blend.
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I glue my tip overlay pieces together before putting on the limb. I have a small profile jig for the fade part. Then clamp the over lay to the table and sand the fade to a feather edge. Then when I glue it on the limb be sure to wipe the excess glue a couple of times. I have been using the 5 min. Epoxy or smooth on for best results. Very little sanding.
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That's very similar to how I do mine Mike 👍JF
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If you can get the feel for it, it works great. I push the file from the limb towards the overlay.
Are you pushing the file teeth into the material at the same time or going sideways with it like draw filing?
Mark
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If you can get the feel for it, it works great. I push the file from the limb towards the overlay.
Are you pushing the file teeth into the material at the same time or going sideways with it like draw filing?
Mark
Mostly draw filing, but pushing the teeth a little to get some cut.
With little to no down pressure, the file will ride the glass but grab the glue.
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The best way to do overlays is to feather the ends to zero, but you have to (this is the key)clamp that feathered end down to the glass all the way. Then sand it flat until the glue is gone. Smooth-on, super glue will show after finish has been applied.
If you get in a hurry it wont turn out right :thumbsup:
Like stic said
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What Max said. JF
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Okay here is my overlay jig for tip fades. And sand on the bench top to feather them out all the way with 220 grit. Then very little after the glue cures provided you wipe the excess glue
(https://i.imgur.com/NBPRczw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GcwvWJI.jpg)