Post by: boxerboxer on April 29, 2021, 10:22:49 PM
1. Is there any reason not to go down this route for a first build?
2. Most of the resources I've found on building glass bows have been focused on R/D longbows. Are there any books or other resources I should look at geared toward hill style bows?
3. I found a post where a user here (John something maybe?) Recorded specs for some of his bows and a few Howard Hill models as well in terms of lam/glass/stack thickness, taper, width, etc, so I have that to go on, but wonder if anyone else has any lists that would make a good reference.
4. Would a simple straight form would be a good place to start? Does anyone have pictures/specs on what form they use for ASLs?
I've spent some time reading build threads for various bows and watching YouTube videos and feel like I have enough info to stumble through it, but if there's any advice you have that may not have come up watching those videos I'm all ears. Kenny's website looks like a good place to find materials, although by the time I buy just the materials for an ASL I'm spending just about the same as for his R/D kit that included form templates so maybe I ought to just start with that, I don't know. Any advice is welcome.
Post by: Longcruise on April 29, 2021, 11:34:53 PM
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1. Is there any reason not to go down this route for a first build?
No reason not to. It's a good first choice.
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2. Most of the resources I've found on building glass bows have been focused on R/D longbows. Are there any books or other resources I should look at geared toward hill style bows?
If there is I'm not sure what the reference would be. Someone else will probably have something.
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3. I found a post where a user here (John something maybe?) Recorded specs for some of his bows and a few Howard Hill models as well in terms of lam/glass/stack thickness, taper, width, etc, so I have that to go on, but wonder if anyone else has any lists that would make a good reference.
"ASL" and "Hill style" covers a lot of territory which is a little surprising given that it's a fairly simple design or look. For a starter, my suggestion is to describe the your vision of the style and we can make suggestions on stack, taper, etc.
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4. Would a simple straight form would be a good place to start? Does anyone have pictures/specs on what form they use for ASLs?
A straight form would be a good choice.
Post by: Doug in MN on April 29, 2021, 11:54:23 PM
https://toddsmithco.com/ scroll to the bottom of the page.
Post by: Flem on April 30, 2021, 12:05:19 AM
All you need is a flat board and some clamps for your first build. These bows are as simple as they get to lay-up. if you are going to cut your riser with a band saw, save the off-cuts for clamping cauls or make some for the ramps. I think thats the only "special" tool you will need.
As far as specs go, figure out what length, poundage, design and materials you plan on using and we might be able to give some guidance. Otherwise the potential variables are infinite
Honestly the books on this subject are 90% hot air to justify the expense of publishing and to stroke some egos. You just need to slap some wood and glass together and start grinding. The questions that need to be answered will become obvious as you progress with the project.
Post by: Longcruise on April 30, 2021, 09:16:52 AM
Post by: boxerboxer on April 30, 2021, 11:36:02 AM
"ASL" and "Hill style" covers a lot of territory which is a little surprising given that it's a fairly simple design or look. For a starter, my suggestion is to describe the your vision of the style and we can make suggestions on stack, taper, etc.
That's a good point. I really like the ASLs that Erik Hoff's (St. Patrick Lake Longbows) American Styk and Steve Turay's (Northern Mist Longbows) Classic and American.
I currently shoot a recurve that's 46# at my 29.5" draw. I would like to keep it in that 45-50# ballpark. I would guess I should go 68" or maybe even longer. In case it makes much difference in design I prefer to shoot three under.
As far as looks, I eventually want to make one with nice veneers but not before I know how to make one that shoots nice. Dark brown riser, maple lams, green glass front and grey glass back with a dark brown leather riser looks very good to me. Probably start with a straight grip since I don't know what grip I like and I could always pop the leather off and remove some material if I wanted to.
Post by: boxerboxer on April 30, 2021, 11:39:56 AM
For the quick and simple route, go to Bingham Projects site and order their instructions and design material for a one piece longbow. It's a start and thousands have been built. The best advice from Bingham is don't make your first bow in your own design.
If Bingham had an ASL kit I'd probably go that route, but as far as I can tell those kits have a lot of stuff I don't really need unless I'm doing a bow with limbs that aren't straight. I certainly will make sure that I'm using design specs from somebody that knows what they're doing. It's common sense advice, but well worth mentioning.
Post by: Longcruise on April 30, 2021, 12:53:10 PM
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If Bingham had an ASL kit I'd probably go that route, .....
They have a 68" ASL style flat form bow. Their site is not very user friendly. :(
Here's a link where you can check out the instructional material. Look for the 68" longbow. https://binghamprojects.com/product-category/shop-bingham-projects/bow-building-supplies/traditional-bow-instructional-material/
You can order a kit that will Create a predetermined draw weight or use their weight chart to determine stack and order what you need from any supplier.
You won't need an oven and I suggest you quiz here on form building and lay up tips.
You don't want to be this guy.
Post by: Flem on April 30, 2021, 01:32:44 PM
Post by: boxerboxer on April 30, 2021, 02:45:14 PM
QuoteIf Bingham had an ASL kit I'd probably go that route, .....
They have a 68" ASL style flat form bow. Their site is not very user friendly. :(
Here's a link where you can check out the instructional material. Look for the 68" longbow. https://binghamprojects.com/product-category/shop-bingham-projects/bow-building-supplies/traditional-bow-instructional-material/
You can order a kit that will Create a predetermined draw weight or use their weight chart to determine stack and order what you need from any supplier.
You won't need an oven and I suggest you quiz here on form building and lay up tips.
You don't want to be this guy.
I called Kenny earlier and he referred me to the same one. Although it's a flat longbow, it's not really what I'm looking for design wise. Based on the stack chart for that bow and the numbers I've seen for HH bows in the style I want to build I'm guessing the width at fadeouts is more than I want it to be. Also the kit has extras that I don't think really add a lot of value for what I'm doing and I'd rather order from Kenny, nothing against Bingham. I'll find as many sample specs as I can and once I think I know what I want I'll post to get my idea vetted before I glue anything up.
Post by: Roy from Pa on April 30, 2021, 02:47:34 PM
Post by: Longcruise on April 30, 2021, 03:01:43 PM
You can't go wrong ordering from Kenny.....
Ditto. That's why I suggested the instructionals and weight chart. That way you can order where you please. And Kenny is great source of materials.
Post by: Longcruise on April 30, 2021, 03:07:48 PM
Post by: boxerboxer on April 30, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
At one time canopyboy posted extensive specs on a number of long bows from various sources including I think some Hills. Maybe he will see this and drop by. I can give you specs for a bow if you like.
I shot him a message. If you've got specs send them my way, by all means.
Post by: boxerboxer on April 30, 2021, 03:55:50 PM
What are the tools and machinery you have for your project?
I have access to my father in law's cabinet making shop, which has all manner of saws, sanders, a planer, etc. Of particular relevance are the band saw and both belt and drum sanders and we both have lots of clamps. I don't have much for relevant hand tools other than a cheap round file so I may need to buy some things, although a friend who used to build a lot of selfbows has offered to lend me tools to make sure I like building bows before I get in too deep.
Post by: williwaw on April 30, 2021, 04:11:01 PM
but not before I know how to make one that shoots nice.
getting the limbs tillered correctly goes a long way towards getting it to shoot nice, and your best help is right here when the time comes.
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Based on the stack chart for that bow and the numbers I've seen for HH bows in the style I want to build I'm guessing the width at fadeouts is more than I want it to be.
roughing out the width, once the bow epoxy is cured, leaves some room to make weight, so plan to keep it full width out of the form.
going thinner on the stack and finishing out with a bow a bit wider than expected would be preferable to starting with too much stack height . just my two cents for a first bow
Post by: Flem on April 30, 2021, 05:00:18 PM
How you planning on squeezing everything together?
Post by: boxerboxer on April 30, 2021, 05:35:20 PM
You can make anything you want with that access :thumbsup: You should buy a grinding sled from Kenny and mill your own lams. Everything else is low tech with a basic Hill style. Maple is a great choice for limbs.
How you planning on squeezing everything together?
So to make a lam with 0.001"/1" taper I would take a piece slightly thicker than the lam butt thickness I want, put it on the 0.001" sled, run it through the planer, then check butt thickness (can I use a digital caliper, which I have, or do I need a micrometer) and keep planing til target butt thickness?
To squeeze everything together I was thinking I could use a flat board as bottom form and some clamps with cauls for the top.
Post by: evgb127 on April 30, 2021, 06:53:54 PM
Also, 7 Lakes has a cool build along here:
https://m.imgur.com/a/E9nFD
Post by: jsweka on April 30, 2021, 10:48:32 PM
14" riser
From back to belly:
0.050 glass
0.100 butt thickness 0.002 taper lam
0.100 butt thickness 0.002 taper lam
0.100 butt thickness 0.001 taper lam
0.085 thickness parallel lam
0.050 glass
Total stack thickness = 0.485
Limb width = 1 1/8" from the center of the bow out 14" on each limb, and then tapering to 1/2" at the string grooves.
Send Kenny M an email with your material list. Unless you're building a lot of bows, I think you're better off just buying lams rather than grinding your own (but I'm a lazy person by nature).
Post by: boxerboxer on April 30, 2021, 10:58:03 PM
If I wanted a 69" 45 - 50# ASL here's what I would do.
14" riser
From back to belly:
0.050 glass
0.100 butt thickness 0.002 taper lam
0.100 butt thickness 0.002 taper lam
0.100 butt thickness 0.001 taper lam
0.085 thickness parallel lam
0.050 glass
Total stack thickness = 0.485
Limb width = 1 1/8" from the center of the bow out 14" on each limb, and then tapering to 1/2" at the string grooves.
Send Kenny M an email with your material list. Unless you're building a lot of bows, I think you're better off just buying lams rather than grinding your own (but I'm a lazy person by nature).
Appreciate it. I know I don't want tip overlays for aesthetic reasons, but do I need to worry about tip wedges?
Post by: jsweka on April 30, 2021, 11:30:39 PM
I never use tip wedges, but I do put overlays on.
Post by: Flem on May 01, 2021, 12:34:01 AM
You can make anything you want with that access :thumbsup: You should buy a grinding sled from Kenny and mill your own lams. Everything else is low tech with a basic Hill style. Maple is a great choice for limbs.
How you planning on squeezing everything together?
So to make a lam with 0.001"/1" taper I would take a piece slightly thicker than the lam butt thickness I want, put it on the 0.001" sled, run it through the planer, then check butt thickness (can I use a digital caliper, which I have, or do I need a micrometer) and keep planing til target butt thickness?
To squeeze everything together I was thinking I could use a flat board as bottom form and some clamps with cauls for the top.
You got it all. Except I would run the slats to be tapered thru a sander rather than a planer. Cauls are good for the riser ramps and long pressure strips for the limbs if you are using clamps
Post by: boxerboxer on May 01, 2021, 01:22:28 AM
You got it all. Except I would run the slats to be tapered thru a sander rather than a planer. Cauls are good for the riser ramps and long pressure strips for the limbs if you are using clamps
I was wondering about the planer maybe not being the best option. I'm not sure I have access to a sander that would let me effectively grind lams, so I may just get the lams from Kenny this time and pick a sander up down the line.
Post by: Flem on May 01, 2021, 08:47:57 AM
Post by: boxerboxer on May 01, 2021, 08:53:16 AM
You said you have access to a drum and a belt sander? Either one will do the job
The only sander other than handheld ones I know I have access to is an edge sander, and I'm not sure there's a good way to do it on the edge sander. I haven't used it since 10+ years ago when I was building cabinet doors for him and don't really remember much about it. Next time I'm in the shop I'll refresh my memory on what's there.
Post by: Flem on May 01, 2021, 09:37:21 AM
"Of particular relevance are the band saw and both belt and drum sanders and we both have lots of clamps."
Post by: boxerboxer on May 01, 2021, 09:55:59 AM
Sorry to give you unwarranted encouragement, this statement made me think you were good to go!
"Of particular relevance are the band saw and both belt and drum sanders and we both have lots of clamps."
You had every reason to, apparently. I'm not sure what I intended to type there but I guess with all the tools rattling around in my brain I just typed the wrong ones there.
Post by: boxerboxer on May 01, 2021, 09:56:50 AM
Sorry to give you unwarranted encouragement, this statement made me think you were good to go!
"Of particular relevance are the band saw and both belt and drum sanders and we both have lots of clamps."
In the case of "belt sander", when I wrote that I thought an edge sander WAS a belt sander.