Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: azhunter on April 16, 2021, 07:37:31 PM
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So I got a Mohawk Sparrowhawk a while back and just have not shot it much. I shoot left handed. Started shooting it and what I am finding is that I have a tendency to shoot it to the right. Even when I shoot a weak arrow. My other longbows are closer to center. I know it is not the arrow because I have tried even arrows that should be too weak for this bow. It is how I am holding the bow. I have tried holding the bow in the lifeline and heeling the bow and sometimes I can shoot some arrows right in the bullseye but not consistently. The bow is very smooth and pretty quick for such a mild R/D. When I shoot it to the right my arrows group in a small area but I need to find a way to quit hitting to the right. I have tried gripping the bow in various ways. Please give me some help. Thanks
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I know those are cut 1/8th inch out from center.Mine seemed like it might have been cut even more out from center.Or seemed more than my other bows in the past that were 1/8th out from center.
You allready said you were using arrows that were pretty weak in spine.I assume to get your arrow to bend around the 1/8th out when the arrow goes through paradox.Which is critical.
I shot mine around 6 and 3/4 to 7 inches brace hieght.It was a 66 incher.
I may not have a silver bullet answer for you.But you might try and cant your bow more than you are currantly and tilt your head a bit to allign with the cant of the bow.Really get your left eye in line with the arrow since your left handed.Hopefully your left eye dominant which makes everything easier for a left hand shooter in regard to that arrow/eye allignment.
Thats a great bow by the way IMO.I was shooting to the right when I got mine as I remember.Most if not all my other bows were cut to center or past.Besides the Mohawk Sparrowhawk.
I hunted and shot 3-D exclusively with a longbow years ago was cut 1/8th out from center.Its pretty much all I shot besides my GN Ghost recurve that was 1/8th out as well.It was deadly accurate!
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If your arrows are flying straight raise your brace up 4-5 twist and see if that don't bring your arrows to center. If not then a few mor twist. Easy to do.
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What's the poundage at your draw length and what spine arrows are you shooting? If they go to the right most times, the most likely culprit is an overspined arrow.
However, plucking will send the arrow to the right for a left hand shooter. And, torquing the riser may contribute to off center hits. Are you gripping the bow firmly? If so might try to relax your grip a little.
If you're not used to shooting a bow that's cut this proud of center you might also just be lining up off center. If your bow hand is in the same location as it would be with a more center shot bow, the arrow is just pointing more to the right than it would be with a center shot bow. Before you release your next few arrows, look down the arrow to see if it's pointing directly at the target. If not, you'll need to adjust your hold a bit. Should be pretty easy to internalize after a few shots.
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Arrows that are too stiff shoot to the left for me and I am right handed.... You might want to try a broadhead that is 50 pounds heavier just to see.
Yes I have a mohawk sparrowhawk
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I'm assuming you're probably canting your bow, but I find with longbows, there needs to be quite a cant. And it can also vary a bit between different longbows. I switched to a different longbow this year; and I am having to train myself to ingrain a new cant. Every time I hit left (your right), I am made aware that I wasn't canting enough on the given shot.
You could use a heavier point to correct your problem. This would weaken your dynamic spine and shift your impact left. But it seems like you are aware and have tried that strategy already by switching to a weaker arrow.
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My vote is to work out a good cant, and then proceed with finetuning your equipment using the cant that is giving best results.
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The Sparrowhawk is a very forgiving mild r/d longbow, as I designed it and Vince crafted the prototype for me.
Your problem is most likely either you (shooting form), or the arrows (spine), or both.
Of consideration with any stickbow is brace height and nocking point, as well.
A video of you shooting would help in diagnosing your problem.
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"Have to have a correct cant to shoot" BS!!!!!!
If your bow is tuned and your form is correct canting has nothing to do with anything period. I can't even believe I'm reading such nonsense!!!!!!!!!
Click n see...
Over the Pond...... (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv)
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What Terry just posted. There is no such thing as a "proper stance" of body or bow for a bowhunter.
What you do with your bow hand, string hand, full draw alignment, "anchor", instinctive aim, release, "follow through", is what matters.
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I shoot with all those cants too (vertical, horizontal, upsidedown and everywhere between), and also using perfect form and tuned equipment, Terry, as an instinctive shooter, i think you don't actually realize the left-right adjustments you make instinctively to accomplish these shots. However, us split vision and gappers must visually make the same adjustment, that you just make instinctively.
A perfectly tuned bow with the arrow nock coming out of your pupil would indeed eliminate the necessity for adjustment, but the best we can get to the nock coming out of our pupil is having it postioned below it, by about 2". So we are faced with a problem similar to canting a scoped rifle. The arrow must travel upward to meet our line of sight (or sideways, with a horizontal bow, at which case, the arrow no longer has gravity to slow its rise, and this lack causes the arrow to move left/right signifantly). It's exactly the same phenomenon as canting a scoped rifle, the way the nock is positioned 2" below our eye:
Yosemite Sam discusses this on the form board
https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=113849.0
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I always hate to argue with Terry, but what I said is definitely not BS. Instinctive archers just have no need to be aware of the phenomenon, because their adjustment is subconscious (below their conscious awareness, if they are a true instinctive shooter). But for the original question, a severely underspined arrow through a near vertical longbow will most certainly hit in the opposite direction of the riser. It's the cant.
If you like, just tune the arrows and make the adjustment through repetition. But if you are not an instinctive shooter, you will be at a loss with that approach.
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A tuned bow has no idea what the cant is! What T said!!!! I call BS TOO!!!
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A tuned bow has no idea what the cant is! What T said!!!! I call BS TOO!!!
Yep.
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What Terry just posted. There is no such thing as a "proper stance" of body or bow for a bowhunter.
What you do with your bow hand, string hand, full draw alignment, "anchor", instinctive aim, release, "follow through", is what matters.
Yep
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I always hate to argue with Terry, but what I said is definitely not BS. Instinctive archers just have no need to be aware of the phenomenon, because their adjustment is subconscious (below their conscious awareness, if they are a true instinctive shooter). But for the original question, a severely underspined arrow through a near vertical longbow will most certainly hit in the opposite direction of the riser. It's the cant.
If you like, just tune the arrows and make the adjustment through repetition. But if you are not an instinctive shooter, you will be at a loss with that approach.
WHAT????? So, if I get my car tuned up, my wife can't drive it because she's left handed? Yeah 100% BS.
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I always hate to argue with Terry, but what I said is definitely not BS. Instinctive archers just have no need to be aware of the phenomenon, because their adjustment is subconscious (below their conscious awareness, if they are a true instinctive shooter). But for the original question, a severely underspined arrow through a near vertical longbow will most certainly hit in the opposite direction of the riser. It's the cant.
If you like, just tune the arrows and make the adjustment through repetition. But if you are not an instinctive shooter, you will be at a loss with that approach.
This is a great argument to be an instinctive shooter!!!! I will be saving this for future use!!! Thanks one trick pony!!!!
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Btw, can we get a verification on the cartoon character Yosemite Sam???? He's playing make believe here as well. What type of person would promote such garbage. Don't delete, let's see his credentials. I bet it ain't happening.
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Silent Footed...
But for the original question, a severely underspined arrow through a near vertical longbow will most certainly hit in the opposite direction of the riser.
Are you saying that a severely under spine arrow will shoot to the left for a right hand shooter and to the right for a left hand shooter when shot out of a longbow??
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Well thanks for your input guys. I've probably owned 25 longbows and I have never had this problem with any of them. I want to like this longbow but I don't think I do. I can take any of my other longbows and shoot them well.
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Mark, have you left anyone else shoot this bow?
I would try that and see what the results are.
It's possible that there could be a problem with the bow.
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Well thanks for your input guys. I've probably owned 25 longbows and I have never had this problem with any of them. I want to like this longbow but I don't think I do. I can take any of my other longbows and shoot them well.
You give up too soon. I can't imagine a Sparrowhawk that's difficult to shoot well, they are Very forgiving longbows for both arrow selection and shooting form.
Noting that your problem is a consistent grouping of arrows off their intended mark tells me it sure ain't the bow, it's the shooter and/or arrows.
Sparrowhawk limbs are intentionally narrower, and thicker with their added tempered bamboo limb core, and thus are quite forgiving for bow torque. They are +1/8th inch of center shot, so as with any true longbow there will be some issue of arrow spine, so make sure to try different spine arrows. My 'hawks in the mid 50s @ 29" loved weak spine Beman 500 shafts that were low 4 fletched.
Other than that, it'll be a form issue anomaly to uncover and conquer, and first to look at is yer bow hand, it's pressure point on the bow's grip, and what happens during release. If you rotate the bow hand from near vertical to perhaps a cant of the hand (not the bow) to about 45*, with the pressure point at the thumb base, that will be as torque free as it gets. Then it's up to arrow spine.
One key with all stickbows is how the shelf/window is cut. The more it is cut to center, or past center, the less arrow spine matters. There is typically a good difference 'tween a +1/8" arrow plate and one that's cut way past center. I have a hybrid mild r/d longbow that's 1/4" past center shot and the plate is faced with 1/32" thin leather - that bow shots dead straight with any spine wood or carbon arrow as long as my bow hand is properly placed and the rest of my shot form is well on ... doesn't matter if the bow is "target archery vertical" or "bowhunter severely canted". The accuracy is then up to the bowsight between my ears and how it elevates the bow arm, and how the string fingers do their releasing thingy.
In any event, giving up and selling off yer Mohawk shouldn't be a problem since Vince has "retired" from bow building for the most part, and Sparrowhawks are hard to come by.
Good luck.
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Noting that your problem is a consistent grouping of arrows off their intended mark tells me it sure ain't the bow, it's the shooter and/or arrows
Very good point, Rob.
My suggestion of having another guy shoot the bow wasn't meant to criticize the bow itself, but to eliminate a bow problem or a shooters problem.
Mark another thing you could try is a thinner arrow side plate. That will move your grouping to the left.
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Noting that your problem is a consistent grouping of arrows off their intended mark tells me it sure ain't the bow, it's the shooter and/or arrows
Very good point, Rob.
My suggestion of having another guy shoot the bow wasn't meant to criticize the bow itself, but to eliminate a bow problem or a shooters problem.
Mark another thing you could try is a thinner arrow side plate. That will move your grouping to the left.
Very good suggestions. :thumbsup:
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I have talked to Mark about this I was having the same problem and Vince call me and we talked and he came up with that the strike plate was to thick Vince mailed me so super thin goat leather it made a big difference. She shooting real good now she loves the Axis 500 29" 175gr point and 100gr brass insert and 55/50 Surewood shafts with 160gr point, great bow waited a long time to get one. Vince is a great guy!
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Always thought I would buy one, don't know why I didn't. Always read they were excellent bows.
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Azhunter, have you gotten your hitting right figured out yet?
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Well, I guess there is nothing a little sandpaper won't fix. I just decided I was not going to be happy with the bow cut so far outside of center. It was just cut way further from center than any of the longbows I have owned. I started with some rough sandpaper and sanded for a little bit on the shelf and then put the rest and and shot it then sanded more until I got it where it was shooting great and then sanded with some very fine sandpaper. I then put a a few coats of true oil on it and let it dry for 24 hours and then hit it with a little steel wool. I put a several coats of Minwax polyurethane clear satin on it. It is shooting right where I want it to now. Always thought the bow was really smooth, quiet and pretty quick for such a mild R/D longbow. I am very happy with it now.
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Yaa I was gonna recommend you possibly work the sight window down to center.But thought that was something you would not want to do.It does weaken the riser a bit.I have had a bow or 2 that were always cut 1/8th or so out from center and had the bowyer cut them to center.They were lighter poundage bows so thier was no concern with integrity really.
The mohawk I had seemed a little farther out from center than any bow I have had that was 1/8th out from center as I mentioned in my earlier post.
They are really great bows and its good you found a solution to your dilemma.Love that style bow myself.
Enjoy:)
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That's great, Mark.
Glad you got her shooting well.
I've seen many guys do exactly what you did with your bow to tune them better.
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Just a little FYI regarding canting:
The cant does not affect actual spine at all.
What it does do is affect the angle you see in the attitude of the spine.
A vertically held bow will show the spine attitude & paradox on a horizontal line.
When an arrow is shot, it goes through paradox in two planes. When the bow is held square, the arrow goes through paradox in the horizontal plane and to a lesser degree in the vertical plane. The arrow bows left (right handed shooter) and right (left handed shooter). The strike plate resists the arrow so it bends away from the bow. The more center shot the bow the less it is pressed into the arrow due to the geometry of the string, arrow and riser.
When you cant the bow ,you are changing the plane in which paradox occurs. Now the bow is more to the 10 o'clock position vs. the 9 so it moves the arrow over on impact thus your assumption that the spine changed. The spine is not changed at all, just the plane in which it is taking place.
The same bow canted to a 45 degree angle will show the same spine attitude & paradox, but at a 45 degree angle. Canting absolutely will affect the shot, but not the spine of the arrow. Canting rotates the axis the arrow is setting on in contact with the bow, sooooooooo canting changes how the arrow is pointing.
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Good you found something that worked. However, if shaving down the side plate is what it took, that means that a weaker spined arrow (weaker than those you thought were too weak) should also have worked.