Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: buckeyebowhunter on January 14, 2021, 09:04:43 PM
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My shooting has pretty much come full circle. I've basically been through every style of shooting you could imagine, instinctive, gapping, fixed crawl, string walking, even a sight this year. And while I've had success and failure with them all I felt like I was getting away from the reason i liked traditional bows in the first place and that's simplicity.
I feel like picking your spot and shooting instinctively letting your muscle memory take over is about as full proof of a shooting system as you can get for hunting ranges. My max is about 20 yards.
And while I liked some of the other styles for a bit I felt like ultimately I was getting in my own way on poor shooting days and in hunting situations i was overthinking everything with the elaborate shot process.
Anybody else with me?
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I enjoy reading about and trying different things. That’s just my personality.
However, I agree with your comment, although perhaps not in the way you intended. No matter how much I may think about things in between shots, I have found that if I think about anything at all from the time I start to draw the bow until the arrow is on its way, it’s not going to be a good shot. It’s fine if I focus on back tension, aim, feel the string on my string fingers and the bow in my bow hand, etc., which is a form of thinking, I guess, but all without words. Once words enter my head, my concentration is gone.
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You just described 99.999% of shooting problems root cause ...dabbling. If someone picked a shooting style one shooting style and stuck to it you wouldn’t have so many people shooting poorly. Unless your using a bow mounted site all the time your causing your on problems switching bows, arrow weight, broadhead weight or shooting style.Without a bow mounted site your using hand eye coordination and muscle memory to repeatedly hit what your aiming at. Continuing to change bows, and arrow weights and shooting styles only restarts the brains attempt to make the calculations. I’m pretty certain professional baseball players spend zero time throwing ping pong balls and I doubt Tom Brady has much of a curveball. If you really like variety keep changing things and you’ll have all kinds of variety in where your arrows land.
You’ve obviously put in some time trying to get it together. What’s one more year? Pick A bow, pick A shooting style shoot that and nothing else for 1 year, if that don’t work you can always jump right back on the merry go round of bow shooting.
I shoot using the swing draw style as taught by John Schulz. No holding at full draw, no time to think or second guess your shot or time to go over a checklist before the shot. It has worked for a lot of years but took quite a bit of practice.
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The best way to shoot is leave your subconscious mind at home and only take your conscious mind with you.
That subconscious mind has caused me a few bad shots.
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David Phillips, you just described me. I tend to think about my shooting form on almost every shot and for the last several years, I have been changing bows, gloves, etc. almost daily in the hopes that my accuracy will some how improve. Still my shooting keeps on deteriorating as my instincts have no place to land. Throw in string plucking and having to shoot lighter weight bows as I grow older, I'm almost embarrassed to shoot around anyone. I have too many bows and I'm just going to have to pick one and stick with it and I have to get back to the days of just looking at a target and shooting. :banghead:
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I'm not one who likes to change things when it comes to shooting. I started by reading, and re-reading Instinctive Shooting, by Fred Asbell. That was a little over 30 years ago. Others will say my form is a bit different than most (I come to about 2/3 draw, hold for a few seconds to get the feel for my shot, then finish my draw. The time between anchor and release is about 1/2 second.)
I usually kill 2-3 deer per year with my longbow. Following each kill, I try to recall my shot process. I can honestly say that I never recall anything after the point when I start my draw. I attribute that to 30+ years of shooting the same way (muscle memory).
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Yes, I think we tend to over think this game way too much. People often mountain climb over mole hills when we ought to concentrate more on basic shooting. The problem is that all this tinkering is for a lot of shooters a major part of the fun. All of us do it at one time or another. Many would be better off taking a simpler approach.
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Yep!
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I guess I'm unusual to have stayed the same since picking up a longbow in 1955 as a kid shooting split finger. I have changed a few thing a little switching to a recurve in 1967, raising my anchor one finger, and shooting gap instead of relying on my Zen powers to guide the unseen arrow immediately below my eye into the target.
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I've been shooting three under for 40 years, using the tip of the arrow for my aiming pin. I can shoot all my bows with decent accuracy. Each bow gets tuned to the arrow and things are good to go.
Sometimes its just fun to play around with different shooting methods, but always take the best method to the woods...
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I actually agree that tinkering and trying things is fun. But for me ultimately that either end up giving me the same accuracy as i had at the beginning shooting instinctive or in some instances my shooting actually regressed. For example I really really enjoyed the fixed crawl when I first tried it. And it was deadly but for some reason over time I started getting really antsy when my arrow point was close to the intended target. Call it what you want but the aiming style actually caused me to have target panic, I'm the same way with a compound and a sight pin.
Never experienced it with shooting instinctively. Pick a spot and shoot.
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Now I do believe that an aiming system is beneficial for long distances. But for normal hunting ranges I don't think you can beat instinctive.
I've come to terms with the fact that I'll never be able to effectively harvest game at 30 to 40 yards with my trad bows. I do not have the confidence or skill.
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Yes
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So what happens when your instincts are off? I was always so-so with baseball. Under pressure, I could throw well but in practice I was fair at best. Mostly, I kept the bench warm.
I use a bow-mounted sight. It attaches to the string just below my nock-set & extends past the riser. My instincts come through repetition & meticulous attention to form & where I'm holding tension. As long as I practice all that, I can develop a kind of instinct for the shot. But if I don't practice for a few weeks, those instincts have a higher margin of error. I can point to at least a couple of hunting shots and a bunch of practice ones where I really can't say what I was doing but the shot landed well. Was it instinctive? Sort of. But only because I've been practicing with a lot of conscious focus in the weeks leading up to those shots.
I figure it's like anything, some people have a natural gift for it. Others (like me) have to work harder at it.
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I personally feel like most people accuracy issues are due to form issues. I dont feel personally switching bows and arrows have much impact on accuracy provided they are properly tuned.
I do think people tend to overthink stuff. Constantly changing aspects of form can be detrimental to efficiency.
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I agree. I don't know how many times I've gotten frustrated trying to "fix" something, then decided to just relax and let a few fly for fun before stopping. The fun ones are always more accurate. Now with that being said...I am not a great shooter by any means. However committing to instinctive shooting helps motivate me to shoot more and make practice more fun, just like when I was a kid. My max at a live target is 20 yds, but that's ok. I also like that aspect of it--needing to get close.
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I agree completely! I did my best shooting after only a year or two shooting trad. Then I started reading around and seeing all of the things that I "need" to do. I started thinking about it and trying to do what was said and my shooting absolutely tanked. I'm still not as good as I was those first few years, but I'm slowly getting back to it by forgetting a lot of the stuff I read and just shooting
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"over thing" not until I read that a guy was worried the glue he used to attach his points to his arrows was too heavy.
Grab your bow and arrows and go have some fun. :banghead:
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Less thinking makes for better shootin for me . I guess I shoot instinctive , but I’m sure my unconscious mind sees the arrow .
If the grip fits you and you get full draw, the onboard computer should take care of it.
Disclaimer: I don’t take long shots on game.
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Less thinking makes for better shootin for me . I guess I shoot instinctive , but I’m sure my unconscious mind sees the arrow .
If the grip fits you and you get full draw, the onboard computer should take care of it.
Disclaimer: I don’t take long shots on game.
I didn't really know how to comment,but Kenny put my thoughts so well.
I will say I think people way overthink arrow spine. I bought some 340 shafts from a guy that said he was shooting a 47 pound bow.
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Not sure what arrow spine has to do with it but it sounds like that guy does not understand arrow spine charts. A 340 would never work out of a 47 pound bow unless he's shooting 600 grainz up front hahaha. And a 900 grain arrow from a 47 pounder might have some trajectory issues :biglaugh:
All jokes aside I am enjoying everyone's perspective on this subject. Seems there are many that have a similar perspective as mine.
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Yeah Robert that's why I was reluctant to post about the arrow spine. It really doesn't have to do with your question,but if someone got hung up on trying so hard to make an arrow work it could start to affect your shooting.
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Yeah Robert that's why I was reluctant to post about the arrow spine. It really doesn't have to do with your question,but if someone got hung up on trying so hard to make an arrow work it could start to affect your shooting.
Yep I've been there. It's easy to do when you have a bunch of arrows laying around instead of ordering the spine you actually need. I'm guilty of it. But I'm kinda a cheap @$$ sometimes.
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I started out by learning instinctive, wasn’t a great shot but could hold my own. Went to a shooting clinic to be told that pretty much everything I was doing was wrong. Although I did get more consistent, not more accurate, just didn’t have as many off days. Well I can’t hit a deer to save my life. I start going through the whole shot process and then don’t pick a spot. Put sights on my bow this year to make me pick a spot. Seems to help but no shots at deer this year to find out. I do know my confidence is back.
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Not sure what arrow spine has to do with it but it sounds like that guy does not understand arrow spine charts. A 340 would never work out of a 47 pound bow unless he's shooting 600 grainz up front hahaha. And a 900 grain arrow from a 47 pounder might have some trajectory issues :biglaugh:
All jokes aside I am enjoying everyone's perspective on this subject. Seems there are many that have a similar perspective as mine.
I'm shooting 340's out of a 44 pound long bow and they fly like darts. Tried 400 and 500 but couldn't get them to fly as good as the 340's. Was shooting them out of a 51 pound for 6 years.
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Not sure what arrow spine has to do with it but it sounds like that guy does not understand arrow spine charts. A 340 would never work out of a 47 pound bow unless he's shooting 600 grainz up front hahaha. And a 900 grain arrow from a 47 pounder might have some trajectory issues :biglaugh:
All jokes aside I am enjoying everyone's perspective on this subject. Seems there are many that have a similar perspective as mine.
I'm shooting 340's out of a 44 pound long bow and they fly like darts. Tried 400 and 500 but couldn't get them to fly as good as the 340's. Was shooting them out of a 51 pound for 6 years.
Wasn't trying to start a debate on what won't work gear wise. If it works it works, I was just jokingly saying that by most standards a 340 would be well overspined for a lighter bow. How long is your draw?
I enjoyed your story about the scouts and totally agree with the moral. Sometimes less is more I think especially with trad bows.
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I don't know if I'd call it over thinking. Perhaps not thinking (enough). A lot of what's going on nowadays is folks wanting immediate gratification/success, and believing that technology, a new procedure, method, etc. will give it to them. If they thought it through, they might conclude that success is more determined by perserverence and hard work. And that applies to more than just archery.
That being said, I do dabble in new/different equipment and methods, primarily to expand my horizons, learn more about them and sometimes just for the h of it. I have no delusion that they're going to be a panacea.
OK, my soap box is getting a bit rickety. I'll get off of it now. :goldtooth:
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To be honest, I think some of the problems come from people switching from compound to trad. When shooting compound, they are shooting darts and when they switch over they figure there should be no reason that they can't do it again. When it doesn't happen right away they figure they have to change something instead of being patient and putting in the time and practice. As someone said, there seems to be such a need for immediate gratification now and people aren't willing to accept that things don't always go perfectly without some effort and time.
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I agree there too. Every single time someone asks me about shooting a trad bow I tell them that if it's not fun for you to shoot regularly, then you probably won't like it. It takes a LOT of practice, and that takes time and if you don't enjoy that you probably won't do it.
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I agree there too. Every single time someone asks me about shooting a trad bow I tell them that if it's not fun for you to shoot regularly, then you probably won't like it. It takes a LOT of practice, and that takes time and if you don't enjoy that you probably won't do it.
I agree with this. Something that Ken Beck, the “retired” owner of Black Widow Bows, once told us has always stuck in my mind: “The advantage of traditional archery is that you get to shoot a lot of arrows. The disadvantage of traditional archery is that you have to shoot a lot of arrows.”
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It comes down to getting the correct spine and length to shoot the broadhead weight you want/like. Basic wood bow with basic wood arrows and lets go throw a few down range.
:coffee: :campfire: :archer2:
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The best way to shoot is leave your subconscious mind at home and only take your conscious mind with you.
That subconscious mind has caused me a few bad shots.
O Lord Roy.... my subconscious runs my entire shot!!! :scared: :scared: :scared:
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Yes once a guy gets his shot routine down pat and harvests a few critters.
It's the new guys to archery that need to learn to control the shot sequence.
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Wow---- this is the same revelation I've come to lately after constantly tinkering with arrow weights, lengths, aiming contortions. I agree with you Buckeye. My goal this year is sticking w one shooting style and arrows tuned to 10-11 gpp. Good thread sir.
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Years ago I shot a compound for a while got 20 or so deer and target panic. Switched to trad and loved it and shot well.
Then I noticed all the best shooters shot three under and set their bows to shoot point on. So I wanted to be a better shot so that's what I did, BIG mistake! Got target panic back and lost the fun of shooting. Went back to split finger and just having fun and started shooting deer again. Just sayin
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I try not to over think it I shoot instinctive and been blessed not to have to much trouble and when I do I quite on positive note and that positive note is" I am out shooting my Bow"
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There's room for all. Some like to dabble and enjoy it. Some like to keep it simple.
When I find something that works I stick with it.
Everytime I depart from this saying...if it ain't broke don't fix it.
I gave a nice osage bow to a friend, of eternal memory, who was a tinkerer.
I warned him not to tinker with this bow because every thing you see had a reason.
Next time I saw him I asked how the bow was shooting. He just sheepishly looked away.
Jawge
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As soon as I start overthinking the whole shooting process, that's when things take a terrible turn for the worse... :banghead:
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Ha! Paralysis by analysis will screw my shot up every time. As Terry Green says, I couldn't gap shoot my way out of a paper bag.
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I'm on the far end of the spectrum from most of you folks. I had target panic so bad I couldn't finish 3D rounds. I was drive by shooting, collapsing, yipping, flinching, etc. Even on animals... and I couldn't get my mind to control my body. The only thing that made a trad bow work again for me was to make everything conscious, develop a shot sequence, add a clicker, and commit to only shooting controlled shots. Joel Turner doesn't get much say around here, but he's the only reason I can set foot on a 3D course, let alone hunt.
Is that overthinking it? Maybe. But it's the only way I've found to shoot comfortably, and accurately, and I spent years trying NOT to go down that path. I wasted 4 years trying my hardest to just not overthink things. I've seen a lot of posts like this one over the years, and the idea is so appealing! I want to shoot like Terry or Howard Hill! It's smooth, it's accurate, it's deadly, and simple.
But I was too busy trying to emulate, without realizing I wasn't wired right for that. I remember that I didn't want to be seen a certain way for using a clicker. But there are guys like me who are wired in a way that we won't ever have fun with a trad bow until we set up our shot system in a hyper controlled, plodding, methodical, target style, externally triggered shot sequence. My point being, if someone reading this is struggling to make the subconscious process work, try the other end of the spectrum for a few months, then dabble in the middle, and figure out what works for YOU. And stress test that system with 3D shoots, or better yet, lots of hog hunting.
What's cool is that different ways work for different folks, and if you can repeat your own shot every time you will be good with a simple stick and string!
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Good post Trumpkin!
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Like Trumperkin says. Its yer pipe, you gotta pack it and yer the one smokin it.
I dont think I ever had a very repeatable shot sequence in my life. Prolly why I am so much better a killing game with that one good arrow placement when you need it. Always thought about 3D the same way! Never shot a NFAA indoor round with selfbow over 255, purty crappy right? so, when I step to the stake at 3D its the same deal one good arrow at that target. Dont think what's next or what has past just killing that animal.
Dont know what target panic is but seen guys make some purty nutty shots when the $ or pressure gets dialed up.
Smag~
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I never had target panic either.... but I understand its a mental thing from over thinking. That's what I've been told by target panicers.
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I never had target panic either.... but I understand its a mental thing from over thinking. That's what I've been told by target panicers.
I think some guys have recoil anticipation, but for me it was/is mainly overthinking. I finally decided it was better to embrace the thinking, and incorporate it into my shot.
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Most times at shots on game, just like Wensday, I don't even remember drawing the bow....
Just the feathers disappearing.
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:clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
Thank you Terry.
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There are many ways to get the job done, not one proper form or method. Do what works for you.