Post by: buckeyebowhunter on October 31, 2020, 07:10:27 PM
So far I've managed to arrow two does and my father arrowed a stud buck with a very similar arrow setup as mine with his compound. All 3 shots were in my opinion good shots on broadside deer with one slightly quartering to. 2 were pass through with the quartering shot maybe getting 18 inches of penetration. Long story short the deer were not recovered so maybe the shots were not as good as we'd thought but none the less this brings me to my point.
The blood trails from all 3 shots were so minimal that the tracking was a nightmare. Basically drops from impact until drying up several hundred yards later.
I've never experienced this shooting my old Zwickey deltas or snuffers so therefore I will be switching back for the remainder of the season to hopefully save face. I will not say that I've never lost deer using my old heads but I never experienced such minimal blood trails.
Thoughts?
Post by: Possum Head on October 31, 2020, 09:39:38 PM
Post by: ed lash on October 31, 2020, 10:10:13 PM
Post by: 1Arrow1Kill on October 31, 2020, 10:18:08 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on October 31, 2020, 10:28:57 PM
Once again I'm not trying to bash SB and I really was confident in shooting them but I'm really losing confidence quickly. If I have to track a deer I need to be able to see some blood.
Post by: GCook on October 31, 2020, 10:32:34 PM
That said I have more experience now and am a better shooter so my intention is to give them another try.
Post by: Gun on October 31, 2020, 11:49:43 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on November 01, 2020, 05:07:58 AM
Also correct me if I'm wrong but I think comparing a large animal like a bull moose to a whitetail is quite different also as their vitals, arteries, etc are huge and would result in more blood produced if severed.
I'm no biologist so my theory may have no merit.
Post by: Jon Stewart on November 01, 2020, 07:01:49 AM
Post by: PICKNGRIN on November 01, 2020, 07:17:09 AM
Post by: Anyminutenow on November 01, 2020, 08:04:54 AM
So, I purchased a kme broadhead kit after reading on here about them. I wasn’t doing a good enough job before. The difference for me was night and day. It’s no substitute for shot placement. However, it’s helped me get 2 holes (entry/exit), better blood, and shorter recoveries. I recently arrowed my largest whitetail, and couldn’t have been happier with the results. Lots of luck.
Post by: Kevin Dill on November 01, 2020, 10:33:40 AM
This doe was killed 2 weeks ago. The arrow flashed through her and lodged solidly into the ground. She bounded 20 yards....paused and went down. She lost her lights in less than 5 seconds. There was so much blood through the tall weeds I had to avoid walking where she ran.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
I have watched my last 7 or 8 deer go down before getting out of sight. Same with a couple bears and multiple moose. I don’t ever try to convince anyone to use them, but I definitely know how effectively they work for me and a number of my friends.
Post by: Gun on November 01, 2020, 10:35:33 AM
I’ll only add that make sure they’re SCARY sharp. This years bull arrow hit opposite shoulder w a Zwickey Delta. He only went about 20 yds. I just wanted to try them. Didn’t bleed a bit.
My best bull a few years back was complete pass thru back lungs going in. Tight behind leg coming out. Steady blood for 100 yds
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on November 01, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
Kevin what brand of SB are you shooting?
Thanks for all the replies.
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on November 01, 2020, 11:30:36 AM
Post by: Kevin Dill on November 01, 2020, 12:49:38 PM
I’ve been shooting the Abowyer Wapiti 175 gr the past decade. I’ve never ruined one, but I’ve lost a few from arrows that flew through animals and disappeared.
I really want to be clear that I’m not a SBB junkie. I started shooting them after studying every bit of data and physics I could find. I wanted a big SOLID piece of quality steel. I had to prove to myself they could be made as sharp as my other heads. I also needed to see that the final cutting edge held up and didn’t ‘roll’ as is often brought up. After so many years I haven’t ever found a single negative.
Maybe the biggest negative is the hype, which they don’t warrant. They aren’t the holy grail of heads. To me they are a percent type of thing....maybe offering an improvement in certain situations (but not all) and having no perceivable negatives in performance on game.
Post by: mec lineman on November 01, 2020, 01:07:10 PM
Post by: SuperK on November 01, 2020, 01:56:12 PM
Post by: Kevin Dill on November 01, 2020, 02:21:54 PM
Meanwhile the chest (thorax) is essentially a negative pressure area. The negative pressure on inspiration is what helps the lungs expand. The diaphragm is the device which keeps both areas functioning correctly. Punching through it internally can also produce a gut herniation into the wound toward the chest.
What all this means for a bloodtrail is inconclusive at best, but it does indicate a lot of potential for variables and outcomes. Great topic.
Post by: GCook on November 01, 2020, 02:40:35 PM
Post by: SuperK on November 01, 2020, 03:11:15 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on November 01, 2020, 03:20:34 PM
Wasn't there a long thread a few years ago that was titled "single bevels and the missing bloodtrail " or something like that?Yep, I read through it for the first time last night after making this post. Seems a lot of different opinions and some controversy surrounding single bevel.
I don't doubt those who say they are happy with them. But I'm just not a good enough shot or tracker I guess to not get blood trails. And the woods around here are so thick and hilly that you might lose sight of a deer after 40 yards or so. I know blood trails aren't everything but they sure do help me out
Post by: BAK on November 01, 2020, 04:03:40 PM
Post by: GCook on November 01, 2020, 04:23:30 PM
Post by: GCook on November 01, 2020, 04:27:04 PM
I'll post back up if I do and the results.
Post by: mec lineman on November 01, 2020, 04:44:27 PM
Post by: IndaTimber on November 01, 2020, 08:20:29 PM
When did Grizzlies become so expensive. The ones I shot were the most economical broadhead to date.
Me too. Just bought 6 for $48 and based on the previous comment about scary sharp out of the package makes me think he has a different head.
Post by: Bowwild on November 01, 2020, 08:29:40 PM
While I've been quite pleased with it. I think there are many great broadheads on the market these days, not like the late 70's and 80's. I have a few Grizz and VPA but I haven't hunted with them.
The Helix is the only broadhead I've ever sharpened with the roller wheels Tim recommends. Very easy and fast to touch up. I've always trusted angled ceramic rods in the past. The ceramic rods don't work (for me) with these broadheads.
Post by: GCook on November 01, 2020, 11:12:12 PM
The older German made heads were $90 for three.When did Grizzlies become so expensive. The ones I shot were the most economical broadhead to date.
Me too. Just bought 6 for $48 and based on the previous comment about scary sharp out of the package makes me think he has a different head.
Post by: TwistedHollow on November 02, 2020, 01:35:22 AM
Shooting is 50lbs. Was definitely impressed with penetration but From what I seen too bold trail was horrible. Now this is the only time I’ve used
single bevel but just was I observed also for a trail.
On a side note if your thinking of using these heads customer service is A++ great company to deal with.
Post by: GCook on November 02, 2020, 07:00:58 AM
Apparently I am. I apologize. Please excuse my ignorance.When did Grizzlies become so expensive. The ones I shot were the most economical broadhead to date.
Me too. Just bought 6 for $48 and based on the previous comment about scary sharp out of the package makes me think he has a different head.
https://www.grizzlystik.com/mobile/Single-Bevel-Broadheads-C15.aspx
Post by: Cory Mattson on November 02, 2020, 08:00:37 AM
minimal blood sign drying up HUNDREDS of Yards ?! - Hundreds is a Long way. You mention two are pass throughs. Passed through what? If the arrow passed through guts no tracking should have been done that day but I don't want to get side tracked here. Not trying to be overly optimistic but I have no reason to think these deer are dead. And of course you can't find deer that aren't dead.
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Post by: buckeyebowhunter on November 02, 2020, 10:25:00 AM
The other two shots I describe were both marginal BUT they were 100% not ponch hits or even back for that matter.
Once again I have no objective evidence that the shots were amazing. BUT my point is I thought these heads were supposed to shine on marginal or shots that we thought were perhaps a little off as long as they weren't in fact gut shots.
Nothing about these heads 1 and 1/8 single bevel 250 grains. Have shown me that they would do more than a Zwickey Delta on a whitetail. And as some have said the heads that I am shooting are also near $25 a piece.
I suppose my overall conclusion with making this post is to maybe keep some people from spending their cash on heads that may not be so much better than our traditional 2 blade heads.
Post by: Cory Mattson on November 02, 2020, 11:06:58 AM
Post by: Ryan Rothhaar on November 02, 2020, 12:54:00 PM
Never saw a single vs double bevel correlation to blood amount, just broadhead size. ALL broadhead performance info is simply anecdotal, there is no way to do scientific correlation, too many variables at play (no matter what some folks claim...I dont want to get off topic but I can argue science...its what I've done as a career for over 20 years :biglaugh:). This is just my personal anecdotal observation after 100's of tracks, the majority of which were "poorly hit" deer. You hit em perfect...likely doesn't matter.
R
Post by: ozy clint on November 02, 2020, 02:57:41 PM
blood trails are in my experience, short and profuse or long and protracted often with nothing at the end of it.
Post by: GCook on November 02, 2020, 03:33:02 PM
Often what is thought to be double lung is only one lung. Maybe back of a lung and liver.
But still, should be a dead animal.
Post by: tzolk on November 03, 2020, 11:48:56 AM
My last 2 deer I used Abowyers. One was a Bonehead and the other a Grizzly. Weird thing, and I really can't complain but when I shot these two deer, one was 15 yards and may have got his heart, it was right where you want to hit em and after the arrow struck, the arrow must have went upward behind his neck and hit the spinal cord because he dropped when he stood and died within a minute.
My third buck with the Abowyer Grizzly, I hit him from about 12 feet away, right in the bread box and he dropped right where he stood too. Both were ground shots with me standing. Weirdest thing! I wonder if both of those arrows were redirected upward into the spinal cord. I heard a loud thwack on the last one but he was only like 12 feet away so he got the full power of the bow. No pass throughs on the last two. Was lucky enough to not have to need a blood trail.
Now I'm shooting vpa 3 blades. My buddy shot 2 blades and we never could find his deer. Plenty of blood though. I'm sure that was his shot placement error though, from a tree stand.
Switching to 3 blades will hopefully give me more chance for a blood trail now that we are back in michigan with a lot less wild land to roam.
Post by: Mike Bolin on November 03, 2020, 01:45:33 PM
My wife (who sees blood better than anyone I know), a good friend (who is an excellent tracker) and I went to the sight of the hit and found one tiny drop of blood. This was expected as the arrow didn't penetrate completely. Rather than wander around the woods aimlessly I brought in a guy with a Lab that had found wounded deer before. Found nothing.
Overall, my experience with single bevel heads has been mixed. I am shooting 3 blades again. Had a hard quartering away shot on a doe last Saturday with a similar hit as on the deer I lost. She ran 20 yards or less from the site of the hit, stood for a few seconds and dropped over dead. VPA 3 blade with a complete pass thru and arrow stuck in the ground.
There are so many variables when it comes to blood trails and what what we "think" we see. Deer can react so quickly that it doesn't even register to us. If I were to hunt BIG game (Moose) I would probably opt for a 2 blade again just to try to insure maximum penetration. For deer sized game I plan to stick with the VPA/Woodsmen type 3 blade.
Post by: Kelly on November 03, 2020, 03:00:16 PM
Post by: JohnV on November 03, 2020, 04:29:06 PM
Post by: GCook on November 03, 2020, 04:40:52 PM
3 blade creates a hole, two blade a slit. The latter can be closed over by muscle tissue/skin from the movement of the deer.Maybe but a three blade makes a little hole. A wide cut two blade makes a gaping gash.
Post by: Sam McMichael on November 03, 2020, 04:58:40 PM
Post by: JohnV on November 03, 2020, 05:34:10 PM
Post by: Doug in MN on November 03, 2020, 06:35:33 PM
I will only use them now if build some Hog arrows. I really like 3 blade BH's and am back to Snuffers they have never left anything other than, a crap don't slip in all that, kind of a blood trail for me. They are short blood trails as well, short blood trails are good blood trails sooner to the pan.
Post by: Bisch on November 03, 2020, 10:49:02 PM
last Sunday morning. The shot was a complete passthru with perfect placement. You can see the entrance hole in that pic. Exit hole was in the other side in exactly the same place. The broadhead was a 1.5” wide German Kinetic 2-blade(double bevel), and I never found a single drop of blood between where she was shot and where she piled up. She only went about 40yds, so was easy to find.
As far as single bevels go, I don’t care for them because I can’t sharpen them well. For that reason, I have no actual hunting experience with them.
Bisch
Post by: SlowBowinMO on November 09, 2020, 12:09:23 PM
The single bevel advantage really doesn't come into play unless you are talking about heavy game or you intend to shoot whitetails in the shoulder. :saywhat: I mostly shoot 3 blades at whitetails these days as a result.
Post by: Overspined on November 11, 2020, 10:25:13 AM
Post by: Overspined on November 11, 2020, 10:42:22 AM
I readily admit that I do not understand the science behind the cutting ability of one broadhead as compared to another, but I have a pretty fair understanding of sharp. How is it that a head that is shaving sharp does not seem to cut as well as another head that is also shaving sharp? A slice is a slice, isn't it? Hopefully, somebody can explain why there seems to be a more effective cut from the double bevel than the single bevel. I have no experience with the single edge broadheads, so this thread fascinates me. I'll stay with my Magnus and Razorheads.
That’s a valid point. It’s basically a factor of a couple of things, but one of them is the acuity of the angle of sharpening. So a shaving sharp axe isn’t going to slice quite like a scalpel, but both are sharp. And any deer shot in vital areas should die, I’ve shot so many deer with 3 blade, expanding heads, 2 blade, single bevel....the way the single bevel twist and cork screw through, in addition to the acuity of the sharpening angle, might help explain why there seems to be some difference...I don’t know if anything could really definitively test any of these theories on living animals, but Ashby’s penetration tests have been the most comprehensive testing we have to reference at this point to my knowledge. I just have happened to have used the 2 blade Griz single bevels since I started with longbows in like ‘91 other than the ones I’ve killed with wheels... one other thing is that to keep durability of the angle and the head, the steel needs to be able to handle the highly acute sharpening angle without dulling or breaking. My personal experience is that everything got better after I read Ashby’s results and implemented his sharpening recommendations.
Post by: Horsehide on November 11, 2020, 11:15:47 AM
Not sure of the angle on these heads, but all were extremely sharp. Blood trails were seldom impressive, but most game either dropped in sight or only went under a hundred yard. My limited experience does not point to single-bevel being much better, as long as I do my part with proper shot placement.
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on November 11, 2020, 07:38:21 PM
For example if you are an excellent shot and maybe tend to hit a little forwards maybe a smaller single bevel would be your choice.
On the other hand if you're somewhat of an average shot and tend to hit a little farther back maybe a 3 blade or wide 2 blade would be a better choice.
And perhaps maybe a middle ground between the two would be a durable 3 blade like a VPA.
I myself am somewhat of an average shooter. I've made good shots and plenty of bad ones too. And I get the dudes that say "well if you'd just make a good shot none of this matters".
None of us are trying to make "bad" shots, which was what I said in my original post that I thought the shots my father and I had made this year were good or at least decent and the outcomes were bad so I think it's natural to put some blame on the head we were using whether that's fair or not.
I really enjoyed everyone's responses.
Post by: Joeabowhunter on November 11, 2020, 08:15:18 PM
Post by: dragonheart on November 11, 2020, 08:22:32 PM
I never got that with single bevel broadheads, but I was also shooting wood arrows and got less penetration due to the arrow shaft breaking in the animal with single bevels. Get them sharp no matter what design...and avoid anything mechanical.
Post by: tracker12 on November 11, 2020, 08:46:51 PM
Post by: GCook on November 11, 2020, 10:12:29 PM
Really had to blame/judge the performance of a BH on a deer that was not recovered. Only fair on recoveries where the hit is documented and internal damage can be determined.I'd say there were plenty of replies about recovered animals with poor blood trails as well.
There are also plenty of pics and stories every season where well shot animals not only survived but were shot and killed the second time a hunter got the opportunity. So just because an animal wasn't recovered doesn't necessarily mean a bad shot.
Post by: hessian on November 13, 2020, 01:22:53 PM
Post by: Overspined on November 13, 2020, 04:33:12 PM
Post by: Overspined on November 13, 2020, 04:36:38 PM
Post by: GCook on November 13, 2020, 05:41:33 PM
Post by: David Phillips on November 13, 2020, 09:12:07 PM
The blood trail pics are about average this doe went 50 yards had blood like this every few feet all the way to her.
Post by: Overspined on November 14, 2020, 09:38:48 AM
I shot under a cow elk a few years back and the griz nicked the back of her calf on the front leg. 1/2 a day later I picked up that blood trail a mile from where that happened. She went down the mountain, across, and back up. I happened across a trail she took..still leaving blood. Sucked but definitely slices and dices.
Post by: Kevin Dill on November 15, 2020, 03:27:30 PM
Two days ago I killed this buck. He was following other deer but cutting a somewhat erratic path through the timber toward my stand. He veered away, then slanted back toward my position. As he walked broadside in front of me at 8 or 9 yards I brought the arrow back and JUST as I reached anchor...he did a combination sidestep and left angle. It was too late as my brain had just seen the lights go green and the shot was gone. The arrow slammed into his upper back and severed the spinal cord, then entered the upper chest. He went down like he'd been pole-axed and laid still just long enough for me to administer the coup de grace for insurance.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZDlCaKEl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BjjGKu6l.jpg)
This was with a 55# longbow and Victory shaft carrying lots of weight up front. You can guess the weight like I did, but I'll assure you he's well north of 225# and built like a brick. The broadhead came out undamaged and will get redeployed for its third deer eventually.That's another deer that had the best of all bloodtrails....the one you don't need.
Post by: Zwickey-Fever on November 15, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
About a week later, I arrowed a heavy antler ten pointer that I never recovered due to the lack of blood on the ground. I hit him quartering away from a deer stand that was 14 feet off the ground. found my arrow about 20 yards from where I shot him, covered in blood. I found very very little blood out to about 150 yards to where it trickled off. I took off a day of work and really looked along with several friends without luck.
After that experience, I went back to my Zwickey Deltas. The very next buck I shot was a eight pointer that field dressed out at 235lbs. Shot him at 18 yards and he only made it about 28-30 yards before dropping. The blood trail was unreal. So for me, the single bevel is only a gimmick. I will never use them again. I shoot the biggest broadhead Zwickey offers. Keep it simple, bigger the hole, the more blood on the ground.
Post by: GCook on November 15, 2020, 05:35:35 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on November 15, 2020, 10:17:27 PM
Post by: Orion on November 16, 2020, 03:00:53 PM
I agree with Ryan. If the broadhead is truly sharp, the biggest determinator of blood trail on a good hit is the size of the head, with multiple blades an additive factor. Of course, a dull head or poor hit, and all bets are off.
I got to wondering though. If the single bevels truly do cut an S shape wound, kind of making a circle or two as it goes through the animal, might that make it easier for internal tissue to block the wound channel and reduce the blood escaping the wound. Don't know. It's one plausible explanation.
I still think the biggest reason for poor blood trails are poor hits and dull broadheads.
Post by: Bisch on November 16, 2020, 03:13:31 PM
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
You can see the placement and shot angle in the pic. The deer made it about 100yds, and there was not a visible spot of blood anywhere from shot site to the place where she expired! There was massive blood on the ground where she died. I expected to follow a crimson path to my deer, and ended up doing circle patterns till I found her. I have no explanation?????
Bisch
Post by: Ryan Rothhaar on November 16, 2020, 04:03:32 PM
R
Post by: GCook on November 16, 2020, 05:37:49 PM
It must not have gotten the memo about that.
The gimmick stuff is something I don't count on. But razor slick sharp heads are deadly. That's what I should control.