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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Danjoseph on October 03, 2020, 12:18:05 PM
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Hello, I just got to have a hill style Longbow.
My draw length is 26.5" with my 64" ntn kennym rd style bow with a locator grip...
How long ntn should I make my HHS bow and riser length?..
Do I need to use tip wedges if I use a .006"/" taper?
Please help me....Dan
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Hello, I just got to have a hill style Longbow.
My draw length is 26.5" with my 64" ntn kennym rd style bow with a locator grip...
How long ntn should I make my HHS bow and riser length?..
Do I need to use tip wedges if I use a .006"/" taper?
Please help me....Dan
66" would be ok. You could probably go shorter too but maybe wait to decide on shorter after you get a feel for the first off. Not likely that you can build just one. :)
Riser length, id go with 12" but consider the suggestions of others as well.
I think. 006 taper is a bit more than needed. It will depend on your widths at fades and nocks. If you go with 1 1/8" at the fades and say 7/16 at the nocks with. 004 taper you should be ok.
A short tip wedge can be beneficial.
I'll leave stack suggestions to those braver than I. :)
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Thanks Longcruise...
So you say 66" ntn with a 12" riser and .004"/" taper should be fine? What if I want a 68 ntn cause I could later shorten the bow to increase drawweight
Thanks Dan.
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005/" to .006/" depending on the drawlength you're building for. You can also go less than 1/2" if needed. Particularly if you are using tip wedges. /[quote
The above is a quote from 7 Lakes...
Tip wedges but how long and what butt thickness?
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Dan, if you get text pics, PM me your # .
I have a sheet of info even tho I don't do Hill styles...
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Thanks Longcruise...
So you say 66" ntn with a 12" riser and .004"/" taper should be fine? What if I want a 68 ntn cause I could later shorten the bow to increase drawweight
Thanks Dan.
Yes, you could do that.
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Dan, if you get text pics, PM me your # .
I have a sheet of info even tho I don't do Hill styles...
Thanks kenny...I love the last rd bow i made its your design but I used a more narrow fade and tips and .004 taper I never posted pics of my bows I think I'll do that sometime soon.
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HHS bowyer s please tell me are tip wedges used to stiffen the tips in HHS longbows or is it just to strengthen them ......
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HHS bowyer s please tell me are tip wedges used to stiffen the tips in HHS longbows or is it just to strengthen them ......
They do both. There's a conventional wisdom that says they must have a tip wedge to use a low stretch string. I'm not convinced of that but I've never tested it.
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Yeah I read that somewhere....but I was wondering with lots of forward taper do we need to use a longer tip wedge to prevent too much whip tiller.
Dan.
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Hill style! Yeah, go for it! It's all I make, but I'm kind of boring ;)
I've never used tip wedges, but I don't make whippy limb bows with lots of taper. Why design weak tips and then have to reinforce them? I use 452X on my unreinforced tips and have never had any problems.
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Flem thanks....but what's 452x please clarify..😀
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Tried to pm this but wouldn’t work, thank you to the guys who posted originally
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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Yeah I read that somewhere....but I was wondering with lots of forward taper do we need to use a longer tip wedge to prevent too much whip tiller.
Dan.
If you go with. 006 you will want a tip wedge for sure. Note Flem's comments.
I have gone with .002 to .004. The .002 is a full 1.5" wide at the fades and 1/4" at the nocks with a straight sided taper. The. 004 is 1 1/8" wide and 7/16" at the nocks and has a 4 to 5 inch tip wedge. All these factors work together or against each other just depending on how you combine them.
The chart Kenny posted is a very good starting point.
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452X is a high strength bow string material
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Thanks to all you good folks on this forum for your help... :bigsmyl:
I want to show you all what I have built so far should I start a new thread or post the pics on this one
...
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Start a new thread.
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Ok Roy... thanks.
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Ok Roy... thanks.
???????????? :bigsmyl:
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Does anyone have a Howard hill Wesley longbow... could you please measure it for me....and post the details here?
Thanks...
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Cant help you with the Wesley, but I think I still have the specs for a 50# Big 5. Which measurements are you looking for?
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I was looking for ntn,fade depth, tip depth,riser length,fade Width ant tip width...I guess that covers it all!
Why is it so hard to get the specs for a Wesley?....
Thanks.
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All those numbers are subjective depending on the bow length, weight and draw length. For instance, you want the specs for a 64", 30#@26" Wesley?
In reality the specs from one Hill model to the next, are probably not going to be dramatic. The big difference is the Wesley has 5 lams, which is likely why its hard to find specs. Five lam bows are glue heavy and a pain in the a$$ to lay-up.
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:biglaugh: okay....but I like what I hear about it and want the specs to build something similar I don't care what ntn length....(just for the record I want to build a 66" ntn)
Actually any Wesley longbow specs would be nice to have...but closer to 50-60#@28 would be ideal I will build to that same specs be it a 66" ntn or even a 68" ntn... I shoot a 60#@28" rd bow that I made some years ago...
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I’ve got some specs from the old Hill gang website. I will see if I can find them and post.
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Thanks!! I look forward to it..
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OK, I know its not exactly what you are looking for, but I did find the Big 5 specs in my shop notes.
So here you go. The main difference seems to be 4 lams for the Big 5 and 5 lams for the Wesley. Plus the Wesley has a lam running up the ramps. Big 5 lams are all on the back, the way Howards personal bows were built.
Specs: My notes say this bow was built in 98' by Craig Ekin. 68" NTN, 50#@28. Thickness; bottom limb @ fade .408, @ nock .290. Top limb @ fade .402, @ nock .270. Thickness at bow center .470. Thickness measurements do not include glass, except for at the tips, which include a .050 tapered glass wedge. Accounting for a margin of error, the total limb thickness taper is .004 per inch.
Width; @ bottom limb fade 1.20", @ bottom nock .500. Width @ top limb fade 1.150", at top limb nock .500
It has a 15" symmetrical riser, with a 4" grip area. Top limb is 35" from nock to bow center. Bottom limb is 33" from nock to bow center.
The thickness measurements were made with digital calipers, but still have some room for error, couple thousands maybe.
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Here's a link to a pretty much inactive web site that was/is??? Maintained by Dick Wightman. You can find a lot of hill and hill style bow info there and a lot of fun reading.
http://www.dickwightman.com/archeryactivity/dicksarcheryactivities.html
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Longcruise nails it. That is the info I have also. It is from the old Dick Wrightman posts.
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http://www.dickwightman.com/archeryactivity/dicksarcheryactivities.html
I found no technical info at all there?
Mark
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A lot of Dick Wightmans stuff is hard to find these days. I don't think you will get detailed specs from these sites, but still fun to read and maybe glean some useful info.
http://dickwightman.com/oldphartsarchery/bowbuilding/gallery/bowsmade.html
http://www.dickwightman.com/howardhill/hhsindex.html
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Flem got the right links.
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Thanks guys for all the info... I'll check out the links above...Flem the specs you gave are nice to have...but I wish I could know the butt thickness of that tip wedge...the taper of .004 most probably is more I think..it would be nice if someone with a bow could actually measure it and post first hand
Info... because then the length of the tip wedge and the thickness just before the beginning of the tip wedge would give enough info to actually calculate the forward taper...
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Flem I just took another closer look at the specs above. I calculated that the forward taper is closer to 0.0066"/inch...
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The tip wedge butt was .050
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My mistake I didn't slow down and read your earlier post...you did put that in ... :bigsmyl:
That fade thickness is it only the wood stack or does it include the glass thickness as well...
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Allow me to quote myself;
"Thickness measurements do not include glass, except for at the tips, which include a .050 tapered glass wedge."
None of the measurements included back or belly glass, only the tip wedges. Tip wedge thickness at the nocks was hard to calculate, but I guessed them at about .040" +/- a few thousands
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Yeah Flem...I got that... thanks....
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A lot of Dick Wightmans stuff is hard to find these days. I don't think you will get detailed specs from these sites, but still fun to read and maybe glean some useful info.
http://dickwightman.com/oldphartsarchery/bowbuilding/gallery/bowsmade.html
http://www.dickwightman.com/howardhill/hhsindex.html
Thank you, sir. The first link includes lam details and stack thicknesses for most of the bows, which should help OP some.
Mark
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Guys so many of you are hill style Longbow hunters and have tonnes of hill style bows ....please chime in and give me some actual specs to work with or does everyone who aspires to make a hill bow for themself need to experiment and reinvent the wheel?
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I wouldn't say "a lot of us" are Hill style bowyers or hunters, or have tons of Hill style bows. I see more 3-piece bows here than almost anything. Then I see one-piece Trilam builders and R/D builders. Very few one-piece recurve builders either.
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"please chime in and give me some actual specs to work"
I think I've been dissed :biglaugh:
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What makes you say that Flem? :deadhorse:
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Guys so many of you are hill style Longbow hunters and have tonnes of hill style bows ....please chime in and give me some actual specs to work with or does everyone who aspires to make a hill bow for themself need to experiment and reinvent the wheel?
You will probably end up doing some of your own experimentation, but I have extrapolated a stack from my own builds to the specifications that you talked about.
So: Flat form, 12" riser, 66" NTN, .005 total taper, 1.125" at the fades, 7/16" at the nocks, Straight side taper from 2" from the fades to the nocks, Tip wedge extends 5 3/8" into limb from nocks.
Using this formula, a .530 stack should yield a 45# bow at 28" draw AMO.
Also suggest at least 22% of the stack be glass with more glass on the belly than the back. Take this suggestion with a grain of salt because it's more my opinion than anything.
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I'm trying to attach a lam stack calculator in case you don't already have it.
I may not work, so far I have only attached pictures.
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A bit different than what Longcruise suggested, but here's what I would do:
14" riser, straight form, 0.005 total taper (1 - 0.001 taper and 2 - 0.002 taper and 1 parallel lam), 0.050 glass, total stack of 0.490, limb width = 1.125" from the center out 12" then taper to 0.5" at nocks, no tip wedges (just because I don't feel like messing with them).
As has said before, we all have our own take on a "Hill" style bow. Make what you like and modify as you like. My style has evolved through time.
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Longcruise thank you for your reply I appreciate it, could you please tell me the tip wedge butt thickness and if the stack you gave me is for the butt or fade.
I already have a stack calculater which I downloaded sometime ago but thanks anyway...
Thanks & Regards,Dan.
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Thanks Jsweka I appreciate it...
Do you start your side taper 12 out from riser center? If so is it because you get too much bend nearer the fade if you use a straight taper from say like longcruise 2" past fades?
Thanks & regards, Dan.
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Hello Flem!! Did you mean like missed? :biglaugh:..
I didn't miss your post thanks for posting...but since I was asking for first hand measurements...I asked again...
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Thanks John.
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For a guy thats obsessed with one model of bow, from one bowyer, you are soliciting a lot of random information that will not apply. If your goal truly is to fabricate a complete copy of a known bow, the best way forward is to purchase said bow, measure it, then sell it. Or just keep it, because its what you really want. :deadhorse:
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Longcruise thank you for your reply I appreciate it, could you please tell me the tip wedge butt thickness and if the stack you gave me is for the butt or fade.
I already have a stack calculater which I downloaded sometime ago but thanks anyway...
Thanks & Regards,Dan.
Stack measured at the butts. Wedge about .030 at the nocks
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Do you start your side taper 12 out from riser center? If so is it because you get too much bend nearer the fade if you use a straight taper from say like longcruise 2" past fades?
Yes. That’s just the way I’ve always done it and haven’t done it differently to really see the effects.
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Thanks Longcruise and Jsweka much appreciated...
Flem if I could afford to buy a Wesley why would I want to build a similar bow?? Anyway those following this thread in future will find great info on hill style bows, and as a starting point to build one for themselves...that alone is worth all my asking wouldn't you say?
Thanks & Regards to all Dan.
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Hey DJ have you sttled on a recipe for your build?
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I'm actually more undecided than when I first started this thread :biglaugh:
But....
I'm still waiting to order my fiberglass..so I have lots time left to make a final decision....
I know I want a 66" ntn 50 to 55# @28" hill style Longbow for myself and I need to get it right the first time...I don't want a bow that's going to destroy my bow hand neither do I want a whip ended bow....
Regards Dan. :banghead:
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I forgot to add that my aim is to build it with as deep a core as I can get away with using 0.05" fiberglass ( Bo-tuff UL).
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Stagmitis since you asked I thought I would put down what I have so far....any suggestions you or any of the other generous people on this forum might have are welcome ..
hill style longbow specs...
Plan one
ntn 66
Riser 14
Draw Weight 50 to 55#@28"
Forward Taper 0.005
Fade Width 1.125
nock width 0.4375
stack at butt 0.530
Upper Limb Length 26.875
Lower Limb Length 25.125
Upper Fade Depth 0.499
Lower Fade Depth 0.491
Riser Offset 0.875
Tip Depth 0.365
Glass Percentage Fades 20.20
Glass Percentage Tips 27.39
Plan two
ntn 64
Riser 14
Draw Weight 50 to 55#@28"
Forward Taper 0.005
Fade Width 1.125
nock width 0.4375
stack at butt 0.510
Upper Limb Length 25.875
Lower Limb Length 24.125
UpperFadeDepth 0.479
LowerFadeDepth 0.470
Riser Offset 0.875
Tip Depth 0.350
Glass Percentage Fades 21.07
Glass Percentage Tips 28.60
Taper the fiberglass on back and belly so that the tips are at about .03" thick to reduce fiberglass to wood ratio at the tips to plus/minus 25%
Regards, Dan
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I also added the plan for a 64" since my drawlength is 26.5" or thereabouts....someone suggested that it may perform better at my drawlength.....I'm still open to suggestions..
Regards, Dan
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You might reconsider the limb length differential. Hill style bows with a shortened limb are known, but with the precision tapers we use now. I think those older bows with different length limbs are the result of the bowyer piking one limb to correct tiller that was off due to poorly matched lams.
If you want to sand your glass thinner towards the tips, you might want to reduce the proposed 005 taper.
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You might reconsider the limb length differential. Hill style bows with a shortened limb are known, but with the precision tapers we use now.
Longcruise thanks for your reply...but I didn't understand your quote above about why I should reduce the length differential could you please clarify...and yes thanks for the tip about reducing taper rate if I taper the glass I definitely need to take that into account.
Regards, Dan.
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hill style longbow specs...
Taking glass taper into consideration...all else the same...
ntn 66
Riser 14
Draw Weight 50 to 55#@28"
Forward Taper 0.0056 including glass taper
Fade Width 1.125
nock width 0.49
stack at butt 0.54
Upper Limb Length 26.875
Lower Limb Length 25.125
Upper Fade Depth 0.505
Lower Fade Depth 0.495
Riser Offset 0.875
Glass Percentage Fades 19.14
Glass Percentage Tips 22.57
Taper the fiberglass on back and belly so that the fiberglass tips are at about .04" thick to reduce fiberglass to wood ratio at the tips to about 22%
All suggestions are welcome...
Regards, Dan.
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Plan one
* Your best option!-
ntn 66
Youre on the cusp- 66" will give you a shallower string angle W/ better accuracy. Wanna get fancy? go 65"
Riser 14
* Perfect!
Draw Weight 50 to 55#@28"
* Okie dokie!
Forward Taper 0.005
* You can go to .006 without a whippy ended bow at that bow length and riser combo-Also futher reduces limb mass. I would also add a 3" .40 glass tip wedge.
Fade Width 1.125
* I like mine narrower but string alignment becomes a challenge the narrower you go. Stay with that width for your 1st
nock width 0.4375
* Too narrow-you will lose stabilty in outer third of limb-I would go .470- .490 for your 1st bow if you must go below .500
stack at butt 0.530
I am assuming glass+core
Upper Limb Length 26.875
Lower Limb Length 25.125
*1.75" or even 2.00" shorter lower limb works. I like 1.5
Upper Fade Depth 0.499
Lower Fade Depth 0.491
????????????????
Riser Offset 0.875
* Just make ramps even
Tip Depth 0.365
* It is what it is relative to tapers/glass
Glass Percentage Fades 20.20
Glass Percentage Tips 27.39
* If you want a whippy ended bow certainly do this! Rather go .50 belly .43 back to reduce limb mass-adjust stack accordingly.
I am sure all of us would love to see a build along! Aslo what about pics of your KennyM R&D bow you were going to post? :goldtooth:
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Longcruise thanks for your reply...but I didn't understand your quote above about why I should reduce the length differential could you please clarify...and yes thanks for the tip about reducing taper rate if I taper the glass I definitely need to take that into account.
Regards, Dan.
I'm suggesting that both limbs be the same length. There is no advantage to building in that difference. If anything, it makes tillering unnecessarily complicated. Also, the lower limb will be strained more than the upper which could result in the lower limb taking more set over time.
Obviously, stagmitis differs on that. Probably many others do as well so read and think it through for yourself. I certainly don't have a monopoly on facts. :)
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Dan,
Don't let the shorter lower limb confuse things.
build your riser symmetrical and place the shelf of the riser 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" above the centerline of the bow . This will have you shooting the arrow close to the centerline of the bow as possible and will create a built-in positive tiller at the same time. you should have a lower limb that is 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" shorter than upper limb as measured from fadeout to nock. this will minimize adjustments for tiller later. if you will notice the dimensions that were provided to you indicate this layout. I would save tapering the fiberglass for another build, you will have enough to deal with keeping the string tracking down the centerline of the bow.
this is certainly not the only way to layout a bow, just my 2 cents. Good luck and don't kid yourself,,,,, this will not be your last bow build, LOL
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correction the lower limb will come out 3/4" to 1" shorter than the upper limb. My bad. (I never measure that, just lay the bow out like I described)
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Stagmitis thanks for your reply.....yes I will go with the 66" ntn plan but I just need to clarify the following...
[Riser Offset 0.875
* Just make ramps even
And you also mentioned that if I want whippy tips to do the following
Glass Percentage Fades 20.20
Glass Percentage Tips 27.39
* If you want a whippy ended bow certainly do this!
I didn't understand.... what will give me a whip ended bow is it the glass/wood ratio that is too much at 27% at the tips or is tapering the glass a problem....please clarify.
I would have posted pics of my rd bow but someone said to start another thread for that, moreover i don't want this thread to deviate to rd bows..so I'll start another thread and post the pics there In a couple of days...
Regards, Dan.
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Longcruise... I have built bows with equal limbs with the riser in the center...I don't want to do that..I want to build a Howard Hill style Longbow....and as far as I know it's built like that...
I want to see and experience for myself if it does improve my accuracy because with my rd bows if I'm a bit out of form or the arrow is not perfectly tuned I have quit a few fliers... With a HHS bow with a bit of string follow I hope to end up with a nice shooting bow like my boo backed bows that I made years ago ..by the way those were equall length limbs with riser placed in the center...
Regards, Dan.
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Algstick thanks for your reply....yeah I like the idea of building an asymmetrical longbow...so I'll do it that way ..thanks for your suggestions,...
Even stagmitis says he uses 1.5" longer top limb. So I'm going to revise my plan...and make it 1.25 to 1.5" longer
Regards, Dan.
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Longcruise... I have built bows with equal limbs with the riser in the center...I don't want to do that..I want to build a Howard Hill style Longbow....and as far as I know it's built like that...
I want to see and experience for myself if it does improve my accuracy because with my rd bows if I'm a bit out of form or the arrow is not perfectly tuned I have quit a few fliers... With a HHS bow with a bit of string follow I hope to end up with a nice shooting bow like my boo backed bows that I made years ago ..by the way those were equall length limbs with riser placed in the center...
Regards, Dan.
I'm confused as to how you are measuring limb length. Are you saying that the limbs are the same length from the end of the fadeouts to the nocks? If so, we are talking about the same thing. If you use an asymmetrical riser to get the arrow rest closer to center and then measuring limb length from the arrow rest to the string nocks then I would not expect you will have any problems. IOW, are you building limbs with unequal working length (fades to nocks)?
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Longcruise all the measurements I gave above are lb lengths from fade to nocks...earlier I built them the same length and with symmetrical risers too
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Longcruise...come to think of it you have a nice point about using an asymmetrical riser... because the reason I want to build the top limb longer is to get the shelf/nock point closer to bow center. This way I can do just that and aslo keep the limbs equal length from fades to nocks...
So.... there's definitely no such thing as "I will build one bow " there's always another on the horizon... :biglaugh:
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Stagmitis thanks for your reply.....yes I will go with the 66" ntn plan but I just need to clarify the following...
[Riser Offset 0.875
* Just make ramps even
And you also mentioned that if I want whippy tips to do the following
Glass Percentage Fades 20.20
Glass Percentage Tips 27.39
* If you want a whippy ended bow certainly do this!
I didn't understand.... what will give me a whip ended bow is it the glass/wood ratio that is too much at 27% at the tips or is tapering the glass a problem....please clarify.
I would have posted pics of my rd bow but someone said to start another thread for that, moreover i don't want this thread to deviate to rd bows..so I'll start another thread and post the pics there In a couple of days...
Regards, Dan.
The effect of tapering your glass towards the tip is no different than increasing your core tapers to who knows what maybe .007+. You will make it whippy(bend more) and you will lose performance. You want a stiff tip. There are other things you can do to lighten the tip while keeping it stiff...Tapering glass is not one of them...Dont ask how I know :scared:
By even ramps I meant build a symmetrical riser....
Longcruise, the shorter lower limb not only creates a more balanced bow (if held in optimum bone to bone alignment) but also increases preload at brace. You will get more performance and since youre building on a straight form you need as much as you can get.
If you know how to tiller a bow then it doesnt matter if you have an even limbed bow or one with a shorter limb.
Like Algstick said your biggest challenge will be string alignment. Thats the sole reason many shoot Hill bows and complain about their dentures :bigsmyl:
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This is getting too complicated for me. Maybe I should quit building laminated longbows and just start whittling on sticks. :laughing:
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Stagmitis thanks for the explanation I appreciate it very much... earlier it totally slipped my mind about the taper rate changing due to tapering the glass..however after reading your post I've decided not to take a chance with this bow and fiddle with the glass but to go with thinner glass 0.043" on the back and 0.05 on the belly...
In addition I will also go with your advice and leave the tips wider at about 0.5....if I do decide to go with my earlier plan on thinner tips I'll use a tip wedge...but maybe not since I've never used tip wedges before and I'm afraid of it slipping out of place.
Regards, Dan.
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Jsweka..I did start off whittling sticks and progressed to making glass bows..... whittling sticks gives you a chance to see where you are going with the tiller, but with glass bows you need to be close to final tiller as there's not much to do once the bow is glued up....hence all these questions...
If I was a rich man I could just do whatever I please and learn from my mistakes....
Regards, Dan
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Jsweka could you please tell me what difference did changing From .002"/" taper to .005"/" make to your total stack for the same drawweight all else being the same....
Regards, Dan.
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Increased it. I’d have to find my old notes somewhere to tell you exactly how much.
If you’re worried about money and only have one shot at getting exactly what you want, you’re probably better off having a professional build you one or buying a used one when you see one pop up in the classifieds somewhere.
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Increased it. I’d have to find my old notes somewhere to tell you exactly how much.
Jsweka thanks for your reply.. I know it definitely increased your stack....I was hopefull that you could tell me by how much ...
Regards, Dan
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I’m cracking up here... crank out a bow, make adjustments and make another. And you’ll probably hit your stride on another then they only get better from there...it takes a whole lotta many builds to crank a bow out that’ll rival these guys doing it for a living. The bow is the easiest part of the equation. Getting arrows tuned and your shooting in line is a far bigger undertaking..
Jsweka said it, if you just want to build one, have someone else do it.
Heck just the finishing process alone takes a lot of practice unless someone is showing you how.