Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: T. W. Harris on June 15, 2019, 08:34:40 AM
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WELL, let's get this started.
Is there really cheating at Archery Events? I hear that some cheat, I really don't know.
Could it be that some that some might be a little envious of those that might just practice really hard and put the time it takes to be good at what they love to do.
At the Howard Hill Classic, I've heard grumblings of people that might be cheating.
I have also heard about other events where cheating may have happened as well.
Grumble all you want, but until someone has the guts to stand toe to toe with proof or witnesses about someone cheating, nothing can be done.
Some say two score card keepers is the solution, I'm not sure. If someone wants to cheat, they will find a way.
These events should be fun for everyone, serious competitors and those that just like to shoot against their friends.
Many people travel great distances to shoot for fun as well as competitively, and rumors of cheating never helps any event.
This is what I am proposing to do at the Howard Hill Classic and this may not be the solution either. The only true solution would to have a monitor for each group, that will never happen.
First, a three group minimum as always. If, there are only two that want to go out, THEIR SCORE WILL NOT COUNT IN THE COMPETITION, PERIOD!!
Second, the group score keeper is responsible and must sign the back of everyone's score card, along with the names of two other participants from their group. If this criteria is not met, THESE SCORE CARDS WILL NOT BE COUNTED!!
In the future at the Howard Hill Classic, if someone accuses somebody of cheating, they better be ready to call the cheater out in front of me, OR, just keep quiet.
Terry Harris
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If you have to cheat to win you still haven't won.
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I’ve been around a lot of 3D for a long time. In all that time, I’ve only seen one person caught red handed, and that person still denies it to this day!!! It’s always happened, and I suppose it always will. There are a few folks in any competitive crowd who feel that winning is more important than anything, and they will go to extremes to get their prize. Most of these folks will call a shot “in” when 99.9% of us would call it “out”! I don’t let them get under my skin, as my attitude is that they will get what’s coming to them at some point. But, if I catch someone doing that, and I think it is out, you bet I will get others in the groups opinion, and if the others agree, we are going to see a range/course official before that arrow ever gets pulled. Anytime there is competition, and no matter the prize, there will eventually be someone who tries to subvert the system to their advantage.
Bisch
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:biglaugh: I have seen it in action even when no trophy or prize was given. There are some who feel the need to win at all costs....sad !! The only reason I turn my score card in is the organization knows I’m off the course.
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Around here, two score cards are the norm. More, I think, to catch each other’s errors than to prevent cheating. I personally would not be in favor of requiring signatures on score cards, at least not at the level of events I attend. Maybe at a championship level where more is at stake it would make sense.
I have seen people disqualified for breaking tournament rules, like string walking. I have to assume that if someone knows enough about archery to string walk, they probably also know enough to read the rules, so I doubt they are string walking by “accident.” They probably think the rule about string walking is BS and just choose to ignore it until they are caught. I happen to agree with them about the BS part, but I also feel that it is important to follow whatever the rules of the tournament may be, so I don’t feel sorry for them when they get DQ’d for breaking one of them.
Our groups always follow the rule that one person calls out the scores, and another person pulls the arrows after each score is recorded. With only one person calling out scores and everyone else watching, it is unlikely that he will favor anyone over anyone else. There are no instant replays or videos, so whatever the caller says is law, like it or not. I really don’t like the idea of some judge outside of the group being called over to second guess whether an arrow broke a line on the target or not, as I think it kind of ruins the spirit of the event (unless it is a championship event) and slows down the movement of groups from target to target.
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I go for fun and don’t keep score. There are a$$holes in every crowd. Learned that a long time ago in competition coon hunting. They ruined that for me. No sense in ruining a good time. Leave the cards in your pocket. :goldtooth:
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Good responses folks, NOW MY TAKE on some of them.
At the HH Classic, I do take 1st round score cards and on Saturday evening I have a Championship Shoot Down.
Ya might cheat to get there or cheat for the entire event, but you can't cheat in front of the crowd watching.
As far as two score keeping, such as the IBO or any other archery organization. That's not infallible either.
Let's say that a couple of people are sponsored by the same Bowyer or company and they decide to be the score keepers while they are shooting in the same group. Are you telling me this might not happen, YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED.
McDave, the signature thing may not be the best, but if there is any question, I at least will know who I can go to to get their take.
I do have skin in the game, I also want everyone to have a great time. Like I said earlier, SPEAK UP WITH PROOF OR SHUT UP.
Terry Harris
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Some folks. I don’t do this for a trophy. I shoot with friends and am competing against my friends and myself. I want to see improvement in my abilities, but the target doesn’t lie even if the scorecard can. I’m not very generous with “it’s pulling the line”. I think the point is what matters, otherwise you’re giving an advantage to those who shoot fat arrows.
Edited to add, I’ve shot with people who consistently tried to gives themselves a higher score and my group won’t have it. I avoid the folks I’ve witnessed trying that.
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I just like to shoot. I've not shot to win in a long time. I just got tired of the over competitive folks making it miserable. I like to shoot a round or two and enjoy it with like minded shooters. Seems like TBOT offers that kind of atmosphere. Just wish I had more free weekends to shoot at events.
As for the alleged cheaters, put your money where your mouth is and file a protest. If you don't have the gumption to do that then just shut up and shoot.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
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"As for the alleged cheaters, put your money where your mouth is and file a protest. If you don't have the gumption to do that then just shut up and shoot."
GCook, EXACTLY!!
Terry Harris
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"As for the alleged cheaters, put your money where your mouth is and file a protest. If you don't have the gumption to do that then just shut up and shoot."
GCook, EXACTLY!!
Terry Harris
Ha!!!....If I said that, I'd be accused of being disrespectful from AK, FL, an NC. 😆😆😆😆😆
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I dont think I would attend an event where a score is the primary focus. Im fine with guys keeping score for themselves, or like at one shoot, the group I joined was practicing for actual scored events, but they kept the mood light and were not very worried about their scores overall. Side shoots are fine, I have taken part in one for $1 per shooter at a 100+ yard elk target. After I won the first round, I told everyone how I aimed, and came in like 3rd place the second round. But that was all just for fun, winning went out the window when we were done.
Once the whole event becomes about winning, count me out. People get too worked up about the win and suck all the fun out of the air. A cheater lowers the fun at an exponential rate, so I will avoid that as best I can.
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Good responses, you're right Terry, Lol.
Look, I also like shooting with my friends, they're the ones I like to beat, especially my bride, LOL. And I want her to know that last comment, I'll tell her!
As for my event, the Howard Hill Classic, I would hope all are honest. I know some love to win and do so honestly, and every person I've ever shot with had always given everyone in the group the benefit of the doubt. If I'm calling the score and the arrow is into the line, I give the higher score, BUT, that's me. I also respect someone else's score calling as well.
Mine is a fairly large event in the south and I really like the multi-round format where families & friends can shoot, shoot & shoot some more, AND, if they happen to get a better score at the end of the day, so be it.
It's all supposed to be fun.
Terry Harris
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If I ever win a tournament you’d better check my card cause I probably cheated! :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
I shoot for fun but always try my best and try to shoot with like minded people.
And we give each other crap and accuse them of cheating. It’s all part of the fun. But you can bet your bottom dollar if I caught someone cheating I’d make it known publicly!
But I’ve never seen anyone even try to cheat and hope it never happens.
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Unfortunately, the number of archery clubs in my area is forever shrinking as well as the number of shooters in the traditional class. It's rare that there are enough shooters in it to even award trophies or money, so we are allowed to shoot "fun" rounds at reduced rates. We are allowed on the courses before they technically open. We all know each other and don't give a rat's azz if somebody has an elevated rest or is shooting a crawl as long as it doesn't have wheels or a stock. We have way more fun than the wheelie boys that have their own caddies and take so long at every stake they have to enforce time limits...can you say archery hell, lol!
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I’m not competitive either but enjoy watching the talent in the shoot offs! Though I don’t keep score the competitors I’ve shot with are honest as I believe most Trad folks are. No cheater can truly enjoy a title.
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If you have to cheat to win you still haven't won.
Well said
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I fished a lot back in the 90s. My neighbor talked me into joining his bass club. I fished 9 tournaments with them over ayear. Won 3 and placed top 5 in 3. Boater/no boater draw for each tournament so it's almost impossible to cheat.
However each month at the meeting there was an argument or fight about accusing the top guys of cheating. And so it happened with me as well.
I quit that club and moved on. So did Joe eventually. He moved out of the neighborhood after he retired a couple years ago.
It's not just cheaters that ruin the fun. It's the jealous accusers as well. After a while it gets really old.
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I haven't been to an archery shoot sender 1978 just for the reason's mentioned.
Got tired of the smart mouths and the 1st place winner getting DQed for some Chickec s@#$ rule about there setup.
Nope, won't even go to a shoot unless it's just a bunch of guys just flinhin' arrows.
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If you have to cheat to win you still haven't won.
Well said
X2
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I really like the shootoff!
Morals and ethics have become a thing of the past. Everyone gets a trophy :dunno:
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Archery isn't a team sport and bowhunting isn't against another person. I have little time for folks who care about how the other guy shoots. Those are the same guys who worry about how much money someone makes, how big their house is or what car they drive. Cheating to look better is as pathetic as the guys who envy the winners. But besides that????
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Archery isn't a team sport and bowhunting isn't against another person. I have little time for folks who care about how the other guy shoots. Those are the same guys who worry about how much money someone makes, how big their house is or what car they drive. Cheating to look better is as pathetic as the guys who envy the winners. But besides that????
I tend to share this same sentiment. At the level I shoot, I’m either going to get a blue ribbon or a red ribbon or a white ribbon or no ribbon. Who really cares? The only thing I care about is conquering my own demons and trying to shoot better than one or two of my friends with whom I'm personally competitive. Within my own group of friends, if we're arguing about whether somebody's arrow cut the line of not, it's usually to argue that it did, whereas the person who shot it thought it didn't. I'd prefer to keep these local tournaments low key friendly events, and if someone wants to cheat to win a blue ribbon, then that's more his problem than it is mine.
Of course, at a higher level or if money or something valuable is involved, then it's a different ballgame.
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The group of guys I shoot with refuse to keep score. Our aim is toward killing shots anyway, scoring rings are meaningless. We don't need a score card to determine if we had a good time. We applaud the good shots and laugh at the bad ones.
There is one competition per year that I attend. Its the Block Shoot in Herminie PA next weekend. It's all good fun. We shoot, we talk, we praise good shooting, and walk off as friends when it's over.
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Years ago I noticed a father and his son (about 10 years old) seemed to win a lot at our club 3D shoots. I also noticed that they were not very good shots. I watched them closer one time and they were taking 4 or 5 shots at each target but since they only shot together with no one else in the group, they made up their own rules and only wrote down their best score. I thought it sad that the kid was being taught to cheat to win a plastic trophy that he couldn’t even take pride in. The club leaders finally caught them and they stopped coming to the shoots.
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I have 4 grown sons. They all are die hard trad shooters. We started going to the big shoots when they were in diapers,as a family. The wife knows how to shoot but mostly went to help and watch.
Fast fwd 30 years.....
We as a group,are intensely competitive. If it's a big shoot,we may or not turn in cards..... small shoots we do,to get the participant #s up. But one thing is for sure..... we are working and practicing as much as each of us sees fit. And we keep scores EVERY time. It is a rarity that our events don't come down to the last target. "Fun" doesn't even come close to how much of a horse race our rounds seem to always finish as.
It's a shame the OP is having to deal with this. Don't really know what to say.
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We were actually accused of cheating. So we stopped keeping score. One fence pole were required to toe what was a near impossible position, so I switched hands, dropped to my knees, held the bow flat to get under a branch and heeled the stake behind me. The other fellow borrowed my bow for a shot and did the same. A couple of string crawlers with pink and sky blue bows were upset about our versatility, even though they scoped every target for yardages and spent a half hour discussing it as a group before they shot. Screw it, ya'll can keep your trophy shoots.
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This is so disappointing to hear. This year's event is the only time I have ever won, or even placed. This news takes quite a bit of the luster off an otherwise stupendous weekend. I guess all competitive activities have the potential for this, but generally, our community adheres to a higher standard. I wish if somebody does have evidence of cheating, they will make it known, even if they just quietly notify Terry. Again, so disappointing.
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The group of guys I shoot with refuse to keep score. Our aim is toward killing shots anyway, scoring rings are meaningless. We don't need a score card to determine if we had a good time. We applaud the good shots and laugh at the bad ones.
There is one competition per year that I attend. Its the Block Shoot in Herminie PA next weekend. It's all good fun. We shoot, we talk, we praise good shooting, and walk off as friends when it's over.
Well said, when I pull my Kanati up a tree this fall all those kill shots I’ve made at 3D events have both prepared me in a realistic fashion and will provide needed confidence when my deer emerges
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The wife and I was involved in the state shoots back in the late 70's and 80's. Anytime a ethics question came up at a shoot she had to "attend the meeting". Proving the cheating was and still is quite hard. We eventually quit shooting competitively for the most part because of the hassle. Some people just don't care about rules.
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This is so disappointing to hear. This year's event is the only time I have ever won, or even placed. This news takes quite a bit of the luster off an otherwise stupendous weekend. I guess all competitive activities have the potential for this, but generally, our community adheres to a higher standard. I wish if somebody does have evidence of cheating, they will make it known, even if they just quietly notify Terry. Again, so disappointing.
Sam don't let it disappoint you. If you shot a good clean shoot and did well that's something to be happy about. As said previous cheaters don't really win. Heck I shot an event earlier this year and thought I'd made a bad shot. I used a mulligan and missed. I was wrong, the first arrow was a 10. So I ended up with a zero for that target. That 10 would have put me in second place. Both my shooting buddies were unaware of the mulligan scoring rules, that you have to take that second arrows score regardless.
It didn't matter to me. The belt buckles or whatever would get thrown in a drawer. I was just so excited over my best score thus far and had a blast with my friends.
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Sam McMichael, none of this thread was pointed at any particular person at the Howard Hill Classic.
But, over the years I kept hearing about this one or that one and I just feel if someone's going to bring it up, BACK IT UP.
I'm proud of the way you shot and you certainly deserved your place on that podium.
I'm already planning some very exciting things for next year's HH Classic!
Terry Harris
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I've seen the shoot off to be very effective in seperating some unscrupulous archers from top shooters. I am far from being a top shooter so nothing's at stake for me. What I hate to see is someone bumped from the top of the heap by someone with a sharp pencil.
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Gotta be something to the fact that most of the bi***in' comes from them that's doing the losin'.
I do lots of 'losin' but I well know it ain't cause someone be cheating.........
I'm a firm believer that if'n you cain't back it up , shut it up.
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At the Oklahoma State Recurve Championship, in order to alleviate questions as to the authenticity of people's scorecards, they do the double scorekeepers AND require that you do your round with someone that you don't know (or at least didn't come with). I like this approach because it not only encourages honesty in scoring, but you also get to know new people every event.
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Sam McMichael, none of this thread was pointed at any particular person at the Howard Hill Classic.
But, over the years I kept hearing about this one or that one and I just feel if someone's going to bring it up, BACK IT UP.
I'm proud of the way you shot and you certainly deserved your place on that podium.
I'm already planning some very exciting things for next year's HH Classic!
Terry Harris. Then why bring it up if it wasn’t an issue?
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DanBow, I brought it up because it has been an issue before, not only at my event but others as well.
I was just offering one solution of what out there is many.
Anything else sir. Feel free to offer any other comment you'd like.
Terry Harris
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The shoot off is the way to keep people (more ) honest. At our state shoot, we have a qualifying round on Saturday and a bracketed, seeded (based on the qualifying score) shoot off on Sunday. Yeah, folks may fudge to get into the shoot off, but no way to do it at the shoot off. Each pair of shooters is accompanied by a scorer, who watches for rule violations, scores all the shots and keeps the score. The shooters can't even approach the targets.
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The NRA has shooter classifications. Your first match score establishing what class you are. B, A, AA, AAA AND Master. You have to shoot three scores above your current class to be bumped up a class. That way you are competing against those at your competitive level. You have a chance to win, at least at your level and have less of a sense of no hope to achieve competitively as well.
For example I have scores ranging from the low to mid 200s in TBOT. I don't stand much of a chance of taking home too many buckles and competition isn't really my thing anymore although it used to be. However if there were say three levels, maybe I could place in one of those levels encouraging me to compete more instead of knowing my scorecard is really just a fun round and always will be.
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Well why not put my 2 cents in on the subject.
I do not shoot many 3D shoots or tournaments but have shot a few. I have always thought for big 3D tournaments allowing shooters to pick their own score keeper and shooting partners was a little suspect. It's like a golf scramble, you put a group of people that are friends together and expect cheating not to happen? I wish everyone was trust worthy but their not!!!!! Now I'm sure the large majority of us have enough respect for themselves, others and the sport to score truthfully.
So how could untruthful scoring almost be completely eliminated?
Use a scorer at each station! if you go to any large sporting clay shoot there is a person called a trapper at each station who records hit and losses. Yes its a lot of extra bodies to have volunteer for a shoot. Another option is have registered shooters volunteer to man a station for a set time. The score keeper for each station would be the only person allowed to call and log a score. Any disputes in scoring would have to be taken to a predetermined official and photo evidence showing shot placement, the scorer and shooter in the picture if at all possible would have to be provided.
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My Opinion, Sad to think but, I think some cheating has been going on in archery tournaments since the first trophy was handed out. Some of it is very blatant and probably some very subtle, like just at a target or two. I believe most clubs or organizations try to implement rules or formats to keep it to a minimum. With any competition between people comes some cheating, jealousy, rivalries, etc. But on the upside I think the vast majority of people at archery events do show good sportsmanship and comradery. You can only do so much to try and stop it while still keeping a shoot fun and enjoyable. Keep up the good work Terry! :clapper:
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I really enjoy going to 3D shoots. I always keep score. I am competitive in spirit and keeping score lets me know how I’m shooting compared to last time. I’ve won some before but that’s not my main focus. My buddies and I shoot together and nobody would dream of fudging on a score. I know there are guys to whom the most important thing is to win at all costs, just like guys who would poach a nice buck and then brag about it. Those people have their own problems.
Any effort by a host club to eliminate cheating I am fine with.
I’m not sure I understand why all the guys who don’t keep score are inclined to post on a thread like this.
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The only person I compete against is myself.
Killdeer
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Killerdeer, where the heck have you been?
Good to see you posting.