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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Jock Whisky on May 13, 2019, 11:45:28 PM
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It’s amazing what one small movement can do to your shooting. I started 1962 and there were no coaches within a hundred miles so it was trial and error learning, mostly error. I did “ok” and made improvements over the years by talking to people, reading and getting advice on sites like this one.
A few weeks ago I was re-reading Shooting the Stickbow by Anthony Camera (Viper). On page 246 he talks about pushing the bow toward the target. I had tried this by literally pushing my arm toward the target but with little effect or success. Then I read his description which involves moving the upper bow arm and/or shoulder forward with respect to the archer’s body. This actually causes a slight push toward the target.
By moving the upper bow arm forward I found my bow arm and both shoulders were in line which gave me better stability at full draw. I have much better alignment, back tension comes naturally, almost automatically and is much more consistent, my string hand comes straight back on release and I have never shot better. All because of the small forward movement of the upper bow arm. This worked like magic for me. If you are looking a step in improving your shooting this is worth checking out.
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I agree. It took me a while to figure this out too. Let's say you face the target with a slightly open stance and come to full draw without moving your shoulders. At this point, your shoulders will be aligned slightly to the left of the target (for a RH shooter). If you then rotate your shoulders so they are pointed toward the target, you will get better bone on bone alignment, your draw length will increase by a half inch to an inch, and your accuracy will probably increase because you are in a more stable position. It does feel like pushing with the bow arm to me. Of course, we normally rotate our shoulders into alignment as we draw, not as a separate step, but it helps to explain it in two steps.
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Is this what expansion is when you get to draw or something different.
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Is this what expansion is when you get to draw or something different.
I believe this is correct. At almost full draw, the string arm can’t draw the arrow back any further if the back muscles have been used correctly. As the shoulders rotate into alignment, they push the bow arm forward to get the last little bit of draw that triggers the release or the clicker.
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I agree with McDave. It's almost like you are levering that last bit of draw when you move the bow shoulder forward. Another way I would describe it is that your shoulders seem to pivot around the spine., the bow shoulder comes forward and the string shoulder moves back, bringing the draw arm back with it. When I do a "dry run" of the movement without a bow I can really feel the rhomboids working. A game changer for me.
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Good stuff guys! :clapper:
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It’s amazing what one small movement can do to your shooting. I started 1962 and there were no coaches within a hundred miles so it was trial and error learning, mostly error. I did “ok” and made improvements over the years by talking to people, reading and getting advice on sites like this one.
A few weeks ago I was re-reading Shooting the Stickbow by Anthony Camera (Viper). On page 246 he talks about pushing the bow toward the target. I had tried this by literally pushing my arm toward the target but with little effect or success. Then I read his description which involves moving the upper bow arm and/or shoulder forward with respect to the archer’s body. This actually causes a slight push toward the target.
By moving the upper bow arm forward I found my bow arm and both shoulders were in line which gave me better stability at full draw. I have much better alignment, back tension comes naturally, almost automatically and is much more consistent, my string hand comes straight back on release and I have never shot better. All because of the small forward movement of the upper bow arm. This worked like magic for me. If you are looking a step in improving your shooting this is worth checking out.
Thanks a ton. Just read a few parts of his book late last night and realised I was having a floating anchor in addition to my other sins.
Nice read
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"I believe this is correct. At almost full draw, the string arm can’t draw the arrow back any further if the back muscles have been used correctly. As the shoulders rotate into alignment, they push the bow arm forward to get the last little bit of draw that triggers the release or the clicker."
X2.
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Also seems that I can get that shoulder alignment by taking a deep breath as I'm making the draw. Taking a deep breath from the chest, in the same cadence as the draw seems to get that back tension and push my shoulders into place. For me, it's easier to focus on a deep breath than moving muscles and bone!
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Everything in Tony's book is golden. He has taken the time to personally respond to me many times and I can't recommend his book enough!
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So is it a draw THEN rotate sequence.? Someone should post a quick video of the moving into alignment at full draw.
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I highly recommend Jake Kaminski’s YouTube instructional videos. You’ve got to adapt a bit for barebow, but it’s very good instruction.
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I feel like it is a "push" into the target. When I shot indoor with the blue targets I would set up my feet and then draw from an elevated bow hand. As I reached full draw I could feel the muscle structure in my back change and then I would some what consciously push the bow hand just slightly forward while holding my string hand steady giving my back muscles the tension to create a release. The string would "slip" off my fingers. Almost a controlled, surprise release.
It really to me is bringing the shoulders together at the completion of the draw. This does not mean the bow arm has to be straight. It can actually still have a bit of a bend in it. At least, that works for me. It is a rather relaxed feeling. If it is not, I am afraid your back tension is too much. Rigid.
Just my thoughts.
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Good information from everyone ! Thanks Jock Whisky !
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A quick question on this please. I have been shooting for roughly 50 years and never understood this concept. Sitting here reading this and trying it without a bow in my hand shows that the inside of my elbow now sticks out and will most certainly get slapped by the string if I extend my bow arm all the way out. I know for a fact that I shot much better when I was a teenager than I do now and that my draw length was about an inch longer than it is now. I also slapped the inside of my elbow a fair amount. I suppose it could be that I shot this way without knowing it back then. Do any of you have this problem with string slap shooting this way?
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Conceptually, it's a simple concept. Assuming you have perfect form, there should be a straight line going through your shoulders through your bow arm to the bow. There should be another straight line going down your string forearm through the arrow to the bow. These two lines meet in a V at the bow. Since they are coming from different directions, there is no particular reason why the string should hit your bow forearm. Of course, sometimes it does.
Pragmatically, most people are able to shoot the bow without the string ever hitting their bow forearms, so we know it can be done. Mostly, if the string hits the bow forearm, it's because the shooter has moved the bowarm out of the straight line into the path of the string. You can do this by rotating your bow hand too much toward the center of the handle, or if your elbow joint is facing up rather than sideways. You can also do this if your bowarm elbow hyper-extends (can be straightened out beyond 180*), which moves it into the path of the string.
However, take comfort in knowing that a number of expert archers always use an arm guard.
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McDave, thanks for the explanation. I have heard the alignment description previously and have seen the diagrams. It was your earlier post in this thread that talked about the shoulders “rotating into alignment” that made me think about how I draw and hold. I grabbed a lighter poundage bow and made a conscious effort to hit full draw and then push the bow hand forward while expanding my chest and rotating my shoulders to move the shoulder blades towards one another. It feels very different but my bow arm was no longer shaking at full draw. I grabbed an arrow and had my wife watch while I drew. I easily gained a full inch of draw length. Is what I describe, what you are talking about?
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McDave, thanks for the explanation. I have heard the alignment description previously and have seen the diagrams. It was your earlier post in this thread that talked about the shoulders “rotating into alignment” that made me think about how I draw and hold. I grabbed a lighter poundage bow and made a conscious effort to hit full draw and then push the bow hand forward while expanding my chest and rotating my shoulders to move the shoulder blades towards one another. It feels very different but my bow arm was no longer shaking at full draw. I grabbed an arrow and had my wife watch while I drew. I easily gained a full inch of draw length. Is what I describe, what you are talking about?
What pushes the bow hand forward is the rotation of the shoulders so that they come into alignment with the bow arm; this indirectly pushes the bow hand forward towards the target. This should result in an increased draw length and a more powerful shot. If you try to push your bow hand forward without rotating the shoulders, you may risk shoulder injury.
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When you say “rotating your shoulders” are you talking about rotating the tops of your shoulder from the front of your body toward the back, effectively forcing your shoulder blades on your back to come closer together and thereby making the top of your chest expand forward?
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When you say “rotating your shoulders” are you talking about rotating the tops of your shoulder from the front of your body toward the back, effectively forcing your shoulder blades on your back to come closer together and thereby making the top of your chest expand forward?
I'm talking about moving the bow arm shoulder closer to the bow. Since the shoulders need to stay in alignment with each other, this means that both shoulders as a unit should be rotating slightly in a clockwise direction (RH shooter) to accomplish this. I’m not trying to make both shoulder blades come closer together. The string side shoulder has already rotated in toward the backbone as much as possible. I'm trying to keep my bow arm shoulder down and forward, so at least in the way I shoot, the two shoulders will not mirror each other by both squeezing in toward the backbone. In this video, the back of one of the elite archers is shown while he is drawing the bow. There is quite a difference in what his scapula on the string side is doing compared with the bow side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTFHHgLKCA0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTFHHgLKCA0&feature=youtu.be)
I'm not stating this as a rule, because I’ve heard many times about squeezing the scapulas together like you want to hold an orange between them, and that may work for some people. It's just not the way I shoot.
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Thanks for the link. That helps explain it well.