For those of you that have land you can manage. I wanted to share my findings on addition of my mineral mixture into my hunting spot. Until recently the bucks on this place (300 acre farm) would hit a plateau of 120" and very rarely would bloom into anything bigger even with age. Three years ago I began pouring the minerals to them. In the past two years I have noticed a big difference in our mature bucks and their antler development.
I have four mineral holes going and refresh them at the beginning of the growing cycle each year in March/April. The buck I killed this year was a good example of their progress. This year the place had four bucks in the 140-160" range. I know the addition of the mineral licks has greatly improved their racks.
2017 as a 3 1/2
[attachment=1,msg2853409][attachment=2,msg2853409]
2018 as a 4 1/2
[attachment=3,msg2853409]
Wow!
Tom , could i ask you exactly what mixture you prefer. thanks Craig
I was starting to think it was time to refresh the licks. May I ask what you are using? I use cattle mineral block with selenium then pour 50 lb of loose on top.
Hey guys, I get 50 lb bags of trace mineral and di calcium phosphate and mix 50/50. Find a low spot that will
Hold rain water, grub hoe up the soil and mix it in. I usually put about 20 lbs at each site.
It should be noted that mineral licks and blocks are illegal in Iowa. They sell them here and a game warden will ticket those if they catch them with assumption that they will be targeted by the hunter come deer season.
Yeah Pavan, I assume a hunter knows whether they are legal or not in their state. We don't hunt over mineral sites here as by the time our season opens the bucks are no longer using them. By that time antlers are developed and the urge for minerals greatly reduces.
I have been doing the mineral thing for years with the same type of results. I once made a new spot and had 4 P&Y and 10 bucks total on cam the night I made the spot. I mix a ratio of 2 parts stock salt, 2 parts trace mineral, 1 part di calcium phosphate with awesome results.
I generally buy 100# each salt and min. and 50# di cal. It generally cost a little over $50 total and gets me thru the summer. Lots better cost wise than the Rocks.
I'll probably be putting a few licks out this summer as well to get some pictures. That's great that you're seeing bugger bucks on your property! I don't want to rain on your parade, but mineral licks (and food plots for that matter) have never been shown to noticeably increase antler growth, however, and they've been studied pretty rigorously. Wouldn't that be great though, if you could throw it some minerals and add 20-40"! Not that it could hurt (except if you have CWD), and they do make a great way to monitor the deer and get pictures.
As for mineral sites not helping the deer as far as antler growth and overall deer health, that is subject for discussion. A state biologist explained it to me like this. Dumping out a 20# bucket of commercial deer mineral works as an attractant, but most likely doesn't do a lot to promote a healthier deer herd...but, if you have a mineral site (his suggestion was one mineral site per 40-50 acres) and it contains the "proper" amounts of minerals (such as the mixture that TJ is using) it can definitely be beneficial to both bucks and lactating does. I have read the studies as well and while they show no proof that they mineral sites help, they also show no proof that they do not help. The biologist that I spoke with felt that the mineral site should start with 50# in late February to mid March and an additional 50# should be added 2-4 months later, depending on the amount of use the site was receiving. In other words, most mineral sites don't contain enough minerals to be beneficial.
The demand for the mineral definitely decreases in late summer/early fall. I kept a site going with a camera on a "no hunting" property a couple of years ago just to see what kind of activity the site got through out the year. March through July saw daily use, with the heaviest use March through May/early June. From August on, usage dropped off considerably, with October through January showing almost no activity.
Many, not all, of the commercial mixes are little more than salt and apple flavored powder and do not contain the necessary amounts of calcium, selenium, zinc, manganese and other things I can't remeber right now. Salt is a necessary part of the deer's intake, but they need more than just salt. Ideally, they would get the minerals they need from the plants (both natural and agricultural), but in many instances that is not the case. The mix mentioned is what is used by farmers and ranchers for livestock, so there must be some benefit in using it.
The same thought goes along with food plots as well. Guys will spend a bunch of money on seed for their plots, but little to nothing on the fertilizer the plot crop needs to thrive and provide the minerals the deer need. Put in 2 plots of clover and properly fertilize one plot and leave the other one alone...guess which one gets hammered?
If nothing else, it's fun to see what deer are using the property and see the changes in the deer from year to year!
Sorry, but baiting and mineral licks spread CWD. Both have been banned in my state since it was found here.
Quote from: Don Stokes on February 25, 2019, 12:41:53 PM
Sorry, but baiting and mineral licks spread CWD. Both have been banned in my state since it was found here.
Sorry, but that is overly simplistic. There are plenty of natural circumstances that concentrate deer in one area like food, water, winter yarding areas, breeding, naturally occurring mineral sites, etc.
Quote from: pavan on February 24, 2019, 12:52:17 AM
It should be noted that mineral licks and blocks are illegal in Iowa. They sell them here and a game warden will ticket those if they catch them with assumption that they will be targeted by the hunter come deer season.
I don't recall it being illegal to use here in Iowa, just that you cant hunt with in a certain distance of the mineral site.
Has it changed?
Years back I called my local game warden and asked about all of the stuff in the local Bomgaars store. He told me that it was all considered baiting and to tell anyone that I knew that had any to not use it. two years ago, another hunter found several mineral blocks on a public area. He called the game warden, the game warden set up cameras. The owners of the mineral blocks and nearby tree stands came by soon enough. They also had stuff called deercain by their tree stands. Personally I see no harm whatsoever in putting nutritional supplements out after the deer season. I do disagree with anything that can be used as bait during the hunting season.
This is the law in Mississippi:
"Supplemental feeding is banned in all CWD Management Zones (salt licks, mineral licks, and feeders). Direct contact with prions is the most effective means of transmitting CWD. Research indicates saliva may have the highest concentration of prions. Thus, to minimize concentration of deer and potential spread of CWD, supplemental feeding is banned within all CWD Management Zones."
Good thing the guy that posted the thread doesn't live in Misissippi then.
Early season speculation indicates that Baiting, which includes Mineral Licks, will be illegal statewide in Michigan starting in 2019. A few cases of CWD have been found in several counties during the last couple years and the Michigan DNR is implementing the ban. Sounds like Pure Michigan will be returning to Pure Deer Hunting. When the 2019 Hunting Regulations are released we will know for sure . . .
When I was in college taking wildlife management courses decades ago, the deer population across the nation was booming, and 'overpopulation' was something that sounded good to hunters! Baiting was illegal. Salt licks were illegal. Shooting does was illegal. The objective of wildlife management was to increase populations.
It worked. The deer population grew all over the country. A resource that was nurtured became a liability. The auto insurance lobby campaigned for more liberal seasons and harvests, because they were paying out big bucks (pun intended) over deer/car crashes. Shooting does was introduced, and considered treason by old-timers who thought shooting a doe equated with sin. Eventually baiting was allowed, including licks and chemical attractants. Enter CWD. It had long been known that turkeys were highly susceptible to disease if they fed in the same area too much, but the effect it has had on the spread of CWD wasn't really expected. Now wildlife managers, older and wiser, have come to realize that anything that concentrates wildlife that normally feed by browsing while on the move on a shared food source is dangerous for them. I'm sorry for anyone who hoped to profit from supplemental wildlife feed, but all forms of supplemental feeding (except in emergency starvation situations) should be banned nationwide, in my opinion.
Besides that, hunting over bait or licks is not hunting, it's just shooting animals. Deer hunting around here has become sitting in a little house on the edge of a field, where the 'hunter' has his portable heater and his thermos of coffee, and he can check in on social media with his hand-held supercomputer while he waits for a deer to come to the food he bought and put in view of his stand.
And yes, I'm a grumpy old geezer who thinks hunting means learning the habits of your quarry, learning when to expect the prey to move through its habitat naturally, where you wait in ambush, and making a kill that you earned. Hunting is declining in popularity, and I feel sure the move away from the aspects that require immersion in nature and understanding the game's habits has oversimplified the hunting experience, taking away the challenge and the personal satisfaction of having outwitted a crafty beast on its own terms. There's not much point in sitting in a little house and shooting something, when it's a lot less messy to go to the grocery store.
I guess I need more coffee. Rant over. I also realize that different strokes drive different folks, and it's all good, as long as no damage is done. :)
I'll be freshening mine and starting a couple new ones in the next week or two.
I use two parts trace mineral salt, one part range mineral, one part di-cal. For new sites, I will add a little dry molasses just to get them started on it quicker.
Baiting/minerals and CWD can be argued both ways. If I provide deer with everything they need, wouldn't this reduce their need to travel and slow the spread of CWD or any disease for that matter?
I appreciate everyone's opinion about CWD on a thread I started to share my legal finding and it's benefits for anyone that can put out minerals in their state. I'm not drinking the coolaid quit yet. My thoughts on CWD are that I believe it follows the trend today of fake news. No one to my knowledge has produced any legit numbers of deer that are affected in any state. Until they do it qualifies as scare tactics blown out of proportion through social media to achieve a new management direction in high deer density areas spurred on by insurance companies.
I feel that this thread has been blown way out of proportion and just like our country as a whole, a person can not state anything without "offending" someone.
Tom was simply showing his results of a perfectly legal and effective tool for his state that he uses in the preseason for deer nutrition, as well as a way to survey deer during the growing season. He is not stating that he hunts over these sites because lets be honest, deer for the most part don't use mineral licks much after September.
Everyone has their own opinions about bating and to each their own. That was not his point. The point is that mineral licks are proven to help in antler growth and deer nutrition, period. For those that are effected by CWD this may be an avenue to aid in the spreading of the disease the same way small watering holes do in low rain time, but that is not the point. Leave the legality up to your local DNR, as it is their job and they will govern this as they see fit for the population.
I too use mineral licks to great results! The deer use the heck out of them during the summer months because the terrain is lacking these resources. If they could get this helpful supplement free range I'm sure they would. I live in a state where CWD hasn't been hit yet, thank the lord, but is also a state that you can bait as much as you want. You would be hard pressed to find a square mile in SC that doesn't have a corn pile somewhere during the season and it is the hunters propagative to hunt over it if he pleases. It's legal so why get your panties in a wad if people want to do so? For most of us hunting is for pleasure. We hunt with a stick bow because that is what we choose to do. I could honestly give two s#@!s what everyone else does as long as they are within the legal parameters.
Let's stay positive here folks. Lets hear of more great results from this practice, and not negative opinions as the thread was intended.
Quote from: TradBrewSC on February 26, 2019, 08:59:16 AM
I feel that this thread has been blown way out of proportion and just like our country as a whole, a person can not state anything without "offending" someone.
Tom was simply showing his results of a perfectly legal and effective tool for his state that he uses in the preseason for deer nutrition, as well as a way to survey deer during the growing season. He is not stating that he hunts over these sites because lets be honest, deer for the most part don't use mineral licks much after September.
Everyone has their own opinions about bating and to each their own. That was not his point. The point is that mineral licks are proven to help in antler growth and deer nutrition, period. For those that are effected by CWD this may be an avenue to aid in the spreading of the disease the same way small watering holes do in low rain time, but that is not the point. Leave the legality up to your local DNR, as it is their job and they will govern this as they see fit for the population.
I too use mineral licks to great results! The deer use the heck out of them during the summer months because the terrain is lacking these resources. If they could get this helpful supplement free range I'm sure they would. I live in a state where CWD hasn't been hit yet, thank the lord, but is also a state that you can bait as much as you want. You would be hard pressed to find a square mile in SC that doesn't have a corn pile somewhere during the season and it is the hunters propagative to hunt over it if he pleases. It's legal so why get your panties in a wad if people want to do so? For most of us hunting is for pleasure. We hunt with a stick bow because that is what we choose to do. I could honestly give two s#@!s what everyone else does as long as they are within the legal parameters.
Let's stay positive here folks. Lets hear of more great results from this practice, and not negative opinions as the thread was intended.
Exactly! Tom if you don't mind can you take a pic of what you're using cause I've been thinking about starting a few where I hunt?
Will do Nick. I'll text them to you when I go pick them up. Probably be another week or two.
My final thought: We need an emoji of an ostrich with its head in the sand.
Colorado has confirmed it in deer multiple times. A study last year for an area with mandatory testing showed cwd in 15% of bucks and as high as 30% in localized areas within the study area. Cwd has been confirmed in Colorado since 1967. Cwd is not fake news here. That said there has never been any confirmed case of transfer to humans and even though our CO deer herd is not doing great I have never seen cwd proposed as the reason. Mineral licks are put out all over the state for cattle and sheep but cwd is still only found in certain regions.
In Iowa, the counties that proved positive for CWD get a late rifle season, where one is allowed a number of deer and testing is offered. These also happen to be the most deer congested areas as well. We don't have it in this corner, the drought years with the blue tongue in the stock ponds is our biggest deer killer besides cars.
Quote from: KentuckyTJ on February 26, 2019, 09:23:04 AM
Will do Nick. I'll text them to you when I go pick them up. Probably be another week or two.
Thanks Tom!
Quote from: KentuckyTJ on February 26, 2019, 09:23:04 AM
Will do Nick. I'll text them to you when I go pick them up. Probably be another week or two.
Tom, if you don't mind id love to have that list as well.
I currently use Trophy Rock and the deer love it but just wonder what benefits it has compared to what you use.
Ill PM you my number.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/5b0001b77d1044fad2b33646a4f0bd7f.jpg)
Not only does it help the bucks but gets these little guys off to a great start pulse helps Mama!!!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/d9ef779a03039cbb67d54eefb859421d.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many folks would be putting out minerals "to help the deer nutritionally," which there's no evidence they need, if the minerals didn't make the racks bigger. I don't understand this human need to improve upon nature. When examined impartially, the true beneficiary doesn't appear to be nature as much as it is the human attempting to improve upon it. OK, I'll get off why soap box now. :deadhorse:
Quote from: Orion on February 26, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many folks would be putting out minerals "to help the deer nutritionally," which there's no evidence they need, if the minerals didn't make the racks bigger. I don't understand this human need to improve upon nature.
I suppose you would have a significant drop in usage but there are some of us that like caring for all animals that inhabit the grounds we hunt on and or own.
I for one love improving the habitat for all the critters on our farm weather I hunt them or not.
But you have a point
Do you have many hogs in KY? I could see that as an attractant for both species.
Quote from: 23feetupandhappy on February 26, 2019, 12:06:52 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/5b0001b77d1044fad2b33646a4f0bd7f.jpg)
Not only does it help the bucks but gets these little guys off to a great start pulse helps Mama!!!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/d9ef779a03039cbb67d54eefb859421d.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Primos should pay you for that second picture.
Hey Greg,They posed quit nice for the picture didn't they?
Quote from: Orion on February 26, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many folks would be putting out minerals "to help the deer nutritionally," which there's no evidence they need, if the minerals didn't make the racks bigger. I don't understand this human need to improve upon nature. When examined impartially, the true beneficiary doesn't appear to be nature as much as it is the human attempting to improve upon it. OK, I'll get off why soap box now. :deadhorse:
See, that's the thing: the minerals DO NOT make racks bigger. It's been studied many times. Guys "believe" in them, and theoretically they *should* make racks bigger. But they don't.
I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying to have realistic expectations.
PP: Don't know if Ik buy that. See the OP's initial post.
I have a little place in PA. PA considers mineral licks as "bait" and it is illegal to hunt within 100 yards of a site that has had bait in the past 30 days. I have spot where I drop one of the WIMA 30-06 mineral supplement blocks in early spring. By mid August it is totally gone. The rain washes some of it into the ground and the critters get the rest. I then leave that spot alone until the next spring.
Pennsylvania has been funding a bunch of research on the CWD. There is a post on this site that will take you to the link. What the PA folks are saying makes a lot of sense, based upon what I learned in college while I was in biochemistry and molecular biology classes. I don't have the time or space to go into it in a lot of detail but there are some basic inconsistencies in all the hype about CWD. Yes, prions are mis-folded proteins, BUT when a cell makes a protein it is folded into shape as it is built by specific enzymes. Proteins are not free to fold-up any way they want. The idea that prions might exist was first advanced by a mathematician that was using molecular energy states as an example in a probability problem. The idea that a prion serves as a template for the cell making more is inconsistent with cellular metabolism, as I understand it. Perhaps I am wrong.
So I supplement a little. Just when it is legal and when it can do the deer some good. I think it makes up for some of the damage humans do in other ways.
Best Regards,
JMC
Quote from: Orion on February 26, 2019, 04:53:43 PM
PP: Don't know if Ik buy that. See the OP's initial post.
That's an observation, which could be related to any number of factors, but is most likely due to random chance. That is far from scientific. Here is just one example of a scientific study where researchers kept captive bucks and fed them different levels of Phosphorus (thought to be limiting in antler growth): https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C47&q=white-tailed+deer+minerals&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DVThcoYWi7OwJ , and here's the key: "These results suggest that P limitation for antler growth is unlikely for adult browsing cervids..." There are many studies just like this, with similar results, and none which show otherwise.
These kinds of discussions bring to mind one of my favorite phrases: "If I hadn't believed it, I never would have seen it."
Here's a massive study from Louisiana, using captive deer fed minerals and compared with those not supplemented, as well as multiple sites of free range deer supplemented with minerals vs not supplemented. To boil it all down, minerals made no difference in weight gain or antler growth. The key comment (on page 107!) is here:
The practice of supplying
mineral supplement mixtures for deer in south-central Louisiana, and perhaps elsewhere, for the purpose of enhancing deer body growth or
antler development appears unjustified from a practical standpoint. Attracting deer to an area by supplying NaCl in block or granulated
form appears to be a more cost-effective method than supplying mineral mixtures, for the NaCl in mineral mixtures functions as the
attractant.
(https://digitalcommons.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=6094&context=gradschool_disstheses)
One thing I wish the the Iowa DnR would change, the fields that are leased for crops have corn or beans. That which is not leased is switch grass. There are alfalfa clover mix fields on private land near by. Even though that gets multiple cuttings every year. It really pulls in the deer after the snow comes, even though it is sparse short regrowth. I also read that corn can actually be bad for deer during harsh winters, as it is basically starch and sugar and hypes a deer's metabolism. A farmer friend saw that deer on his land were suffering one winter, so he plants an alfalfa clover mix apron around his switch grass. He does one cutting and then leaves it. The other day there were six deer pawing through the snow and munching on that along side his corn barrens 10 acre habitat plot with grass and bushes.
Pistol: I don't want to hijack this thread, but I did scan the abstracts of the first six studies you listed. They looked at just about everything related to mineral supplementation but antler growth. On the other hand, the LSU study sure seems to indicate that mineral supplementation doesn't affect the deer at all, antlers or anything else.
Thus, one could conclude that those folks who are supplementing are going through a lot of effort for virtually no benefit to them or the deer. Bet you'll have a hard time convincing them though, regardless of what the science says. :bigsmyl:
Hey, like I said earlier, I don't tell folks not to do it - I just want to help set realistic expectations! The same things could be said for food plots as well.
I can find a lot of scientists with studies that are convinced about global warming also. I wouldn't try mineral licks if I were you. :shaka:
'You are what you eat' I eat lots of high grade whole food supplements, but tonight, i added some venison cutlets and organic spinach and arugula to me. That logic holds for animals as well, if their diet is lacking specific nutrients. Global warming and global cooling is a fluctuation caused by a variable star with an 11 year cycle that we call the Sun. According to the area specialists here, much of our soil is biotically dead and needs nutrients added every year to produce food with adequate nutrients. We are what we eat.
I know what I think about their work, but I'm not a climate scientist so I can't speak as in depth to their research. I am a deer biologist though, and can speak to what has been definitively and repeatedly demonstrated on deer and what hasn't. What you do with that information is certainly up to you. You might want to publish some research that shows your 20" antler gain - you'd become an instant millionaire! Heck, I'd even buy your product then.
Good luck this season.
Interesting thread I've followed from the start. A few thoughts I guess....illegal in mo here now but heck I've had a few mineral licks going for 10+ years and they are like craters so I know the deer will continue to use them and hope we don't have the dreaded CWD any closer than it already is.
On antler growth....I know it's genetics as well but how are these deer farmers growing 200-300" deer.....maybe they are getting more than some mineral suppliments.
My favorite thing about the mineral licks was getting the late summer trail cam pics so I know who is around.
Tim B
Tom Jenkins annually post pics of big bucks he has taken with his trad bows. This year was no exception. He does not have to put out thesis or anything for me to prove his findings.I have seen his living room wall. Mr. Pete you seem very passionate about your knowledge about deer biology. Tom shows how passionate he is about harvesting nice bucks and has the pictures to prove it. The only thing Tom does illegally is hunting those helpless bucks with those fast Zipper bows!
Pete,
Are you prepared to make the same or similar observations concerning mineral supplements and domestic livestock?
Quote from: pavan on February 26, 2019, 10:08:51 PM
Global warming and global cooling is a fluctuation caused by a variable star with an 11 year cycle that we call the Sun.
Pavan, my point exactly. Law makers propagated scientific studies to push their agendas.
Quote from: gregg dudley on February 27, 2019, 07:48:07 AM
Pete,
Are you prepared to make the same or similar observations concerning mineral supplements and domestic livestock?
Nope! This some kind of trap I assume? I don't know livestock, I haven't researched livestock, and further, I'm not making any observations at all. Just reading the scientific research on DEER. There are lots of questions still unanswered in the deer world, but this is simply not one of them.
Like I said, if somebody could demonstrate significant additional antler growth from mineral supplementation (something the deer feed companies have not been able to do), he would become an overnight multimillionaire. Don't you think these Trophy Rock companies have been trying to demonstrate this for decades?
[attachment=1,msg2854163][attachment=2,msg2854163]
I am sure we will not sway one another to the other side on this. I have seen the more than positive results on three separate farms from the addition of minerals. Our soil is very poor and maybe that has something to do with it.
Quote from: KentuckyTJ on February 27, 2019, 08:46:07 AM
I am sure we will not sway one another to the other side on this. I have seen the more than positive results on three separate farms from the addition of minerals. Our soil is very poor and maybe that has something to do with it.
And there, you may have hit on the most important factor. The vast majority of studies that Pete and others have cited were done on captive herds with controlled diets that already had a basically sound nutritional core. Adding supplements to that base is going to have less of an obvious advantage than doing the same thing on a population that exists in areas with poor soil and poorer nutritional value.
Quote from: PistolPete on February 27, 2019, 08:24:49 AM
Quote from: gregg dudley on February 27, 2019, 07:48:07 AM
Pete,
Are you prepared to make the same or similar observations concerning mineral supplements and domestic livestock?
Nope! This some kind of trap I assume? I don't know livestock, I haven't researched livestock, and further, I'm not making any observations at all. Just reading the scientific research on DEER. There are lots of questions still unanswered in the deer world, but this is simply not one of them.
Like I said, if somebody could demonstrate significant additional antler growth from mineral supplementation (something the deer feed companies have not been able to do), he would become an overnight multimillionaire. Don't you think these Trophy Rock companies have been trying to demonstrate this for decades?
Depends on your definition of trap! :)
It was a sincere question. I'm not an expert, but I know that ranchers have been adding mineral blocks and mineral supplements to the diets of livestock for years and years. Go to Rural King. Tractor Supply, or your local coop and you will find row after row of feed supplements. In an industry that promotes a profit margin, I'd say there was an incentive to avoid the additional costs of minerals if they weren't proven to work. The science behind them seems to promote the same results as those purported for deer.
PistolPete, you should know better than to try to fight opinion with facts on the internet. :biglaugh:
Quote from: KentuckyTJ on February 26, 2019, 09:50:12 PM
I can find a lot of scientists with studies that are convinced about global warming also. I wouldn't try mineral licks if I were you. :shaka:
Right on!
Hey, I'm not trying to discourage TJ or anyone from using minerals where legal. What I don't like however is the commercialization of the deer hunting industry that sends the message that a hunter HAS TO spend his hard earned money on products that don't actually do as much as they might claim. Buy those products as much as you want! I just want other hunters to see the reality rather than unwittingly falling into the industry's traps.
Lots of factors come into play when your talking about one particular species that inhabits many different ecosystems.
Iowa is known for big bucks but their not behind every tree AND iv never seen the size that I currently have wondering our farm.... is it due to minerals?
All I know is it lets me get eyes on the deer around the area and the big boys love it!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/e0ec2f8c9ded1bf52512fb211104f49d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/931d53f16f1467ce29d75f2f5e80cfd1.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/475a44d093bb577cfa2fa94ed454d0ea.jpg)
I'll be freshening mine up real soon[emoji106]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have had friends who use bait, mineral licks, etc. say that predators, such as coyotes and bobcats, also quickly learn about these setups and start regularly ambushing animals that come to it. Has anybody here seen this take place?
who, really knows that there local deer heard is deficient in minerals..id say unless your running a deer farm and doing blood tests. nobody really knows. but im sure it doesn't hurt to have one out. doesn't really cost that much, and you can put up a camera and see every buck and doe in the area. so therefor I keep a small one out year round. if it helps them great! is it nessasary NO! genetics make antlers. letting them get older is what makes big antlers.
my 02. cents :deadhorse:
I have shot some big bucks and a lot of smaller bucks, In the end what i remember is the situation and the shot. Being a ground/still hunter with no pop-up blinds blinds, every situation is completely different, every shot is different. I am more proud of some of the smaller bucks that i had to work for or made super shots getting, but big does later in the season get more respect from me. The thing with big does is that I don't have try to figure out how to cook the antlers. Somehow in my mind, too much manipulation to the hunt or too much manipulation to target, to grow and to kill a specific deer, robs me of the wild adventure. The way some of the TV outdoors shows do things in Iowa is more like livestock farming, anything goes for bragging rights and strutting I guess.
From a lot of the comments, several folks seem to assume that the main (only?) reason to have do food plots and/or minerals is to grow big antlered bucks. I am sure that is true for some, but most of the people I know, myself included, do plots, minerals and habitat work for the well being of not just deer, but critters in general. The minerals lick is mainly to give the pregnant/lactating does a little boost.
I don't hunt my plots, although legal and my mineral site is at least 200 yards from any stand site and there is no gun hunting on the portion of the property that I maintain. I spend more time on habitat work...brush piles for small game, removing invasive species, planting warm season grasses and doing prescribed burns to promote growth of natural forbs/forage than I do on plots. We hadn't seen a cottontail rabbit or quail here for 10 years until we planted clover and milo and built some brush piles. Got some bunnies now and even a few quail.
Deer population in my area of the county has dropped consistently for the last 8 years. Rabbits and game birds have lost most of their cover/habitat as a most of the fence rows and briar patches are gone (what was four 50 acre fields is now a 200 acre field). A large portion of the wooded ground in this area has been timbered with no thought to forest management...mast producing trees over harvested and Asian bush honeysuckle has taken over. My wife and I enjoy being in the woods trying to make it better for the critters. Please don't assume that everyone involved in food plotting and habitat management is trying to grow the next mega-buck that they can shoot from their enclosed shooting house. :)
If you don't do any of the habitat stuff, that's cool and if you do, that's cool too! The main thing is to keep moving and enjoy your time outdoors!
I utilized 12 fifty pound bags of Antler Max Mineral last year....prefer to attempt to maintain a healthy and quality herd year around.
Dang... and I though the whole point of this thread was to show some cool pictures of deer in velvet during the growing months.. Isn't that what most of us use mineral licks for anyway??
TG seems to be turning into a pissing match site much like stick#@!.com.. I always liked the fact that you could come here for good and respectful threads that are in the end helpful or entertaining. Not a bunch of opinionated @$$holes trying to prove whose thing is bigger.
If you don't like to get trailcam pictures of deer during the growing months through a supplement that certainly isn't bad for them, take your negativity elsewhere. Geezz..
Amen..!! :clapper:
Self proclaimed expert anti's like PP and Don Stokes can quote whatever statistics they want but even without the cattle industries overwhelming success with use of supplements to improve weight and muscle mass on herds the fact that hundreds of thousands of deer hunters have improved local herds in harvesting larger body weight deer, higher fawn survival as well as bigger antler production shows the futility of the false arguements they so forcefully and negatively present.
We know CWD is being found more and more but most knowledgeable people know that is a product of more biologists looking for, testing for and as a result finding more affected animals not because it is becoming an epidemic. It has been there all along but now it is the hot topic of those with an agenda just like global warming.
EHD is becoming epidemic and is devastating herds all over the midwest. But the likes of Don and PP won't acknowledge that fact. Won't allow that more money and effort shows be spent to combat that vs a condition that actually kills a significantly small number of deer.
CWD is not fake news but it is manipulated news.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Wow! And here I thought it would be neat for people to see just a tiny bit of the science behind deer management. I certainly won't apologize for presenting facts, but I will understand a little better next time that there are a good many folks who would rather bury their heads in the sand than learn something new and unexpected. That's fine, I'll go back to my silly wildlife biologist world of making stuff up.
On a totally unrelated note, are you guys sure about this whole "the Earth is round" deal? I'm not convinced. I think it's a science conspiracy...
Pete you are ignoring the facts that people get positive results every year using management practices that include supplemental feed that includes mineral supplements. You can make insulting comments about people's "heads buried in the sand" to try to bully people into not discussing a proven practice but it won't change the fact that it works. I've seen the results on three different tracts I'm involved with the management on. Just like fertilizer on a field makes better nutrition in the plants they feed on.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
I think it's pretty well accepted that on a piece of land that is low in nutrition year after year, most does only have one fawn each season. On places that are high in nutrition year after year they have multiple fawns. So I think it's the same with antler growth. If a buck has an excess of minerals over and above what his body needs the excess can go into antler development.
Maybe the science just sounds hollow when it's being pushed by characters who are just advancing their anti baiting opinion. Maybe the science is hard to to swallow when its been proven that antler size is mostly determines by year round nutrition than genetics. The absolute hardest thing to accept is when the science says it doesn't work but your deer herd has improved drastically in the years you've been planting plots and minerals. The most bitter pill of all is that every time somebody makes a thread on Trad Gang anymore it gets pounced and derailed by a bunch of people with nothing to add to the conversation at hand.
In my case I don't have a very big farm to hunt so I try to do everything I can to get the deer to use that area and keep them there all year round
Quote from: bigbadjon on February 28, 2019, 09:04:29 AM
Maybe the science just sounds hollow when it's being pushed by characters who are just advancing their anti baiting opinion. Maybe the science is hard to to swallow when its been proven that antler size is mostly determines by year round nutrition than genetics. The absolute hardest thing to accept is when the science says it doesn't work but your deer herd has improved drastically in the years you've been planting plots and minerals. The most bitter pill of all is that every time somebody makes a thread on Trad Gang anymore it gets pounced and derailed by a bunch of people with nothing to add to the conversation at hand.
Exactly!
I'll try and get this thread back on subject.
Iv been putting out Trophy Rock for about 10 years, I like due to its natural state. It's just a rock mined out of Idaho I believe.
Lots of trace minerals in it that the deer just love!
Snorkel anyone?!?!?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/d7fc314a871f13ed95df82e8354814de.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's a great pic!
Boy did sleep wrong, I could use a mineral lick today. I wonder the dosage should be to help loosen up this stiff neck and cure cabin fever. I also wonder if deer that get the supplements, like it so much that it would alter their normal lodging and dining routines.
Pavan, you obviously don't like baiting. You have made that clear. This thread is about baiting. If it bothers you stop checking it. Your elitism doesn't dissuade the hunters here utilizing it.
This about baiting? Damn, you have not read what I said. Many soils are nutrient deficient, I agree with supplementing nutritional needs. It is illegal in Iowa and yet widely used, I was going fair warning to anyone had dreams of growing big antlers that could get ticketed. Then you jump on my ass acknowledging in a joke that supplements work because of my stiff neck this morning, good god what a bunch of dumb asses. goodbye.
Yeah, this thread is not about baiting. And pavan wasn't anti baiting. Or elitist.
Mineral licks, feeders and food plots are all baiting. As another detractor of this thread it doesn'tshock me to see you defending his comments. How great was trad gang when you could post you methods without a bunch of flippant detracting remarks? This thread was about refreshing mineral licks and showing pictures of deer using them. Instead it has been a chiding lecturers whining about legality in their state, wasted effort, and repatterning natural deer movement. It's no wonder the general hunting community has such such a poor opinion of us when it seems all anybody does is criticize other hunters methods.
Was a time when most hunting threads dealt with real hunting methods. Not so much anymore. Seems disagreement is the logical outcome, at least not unexpected.
Real hunting is not for you to decide for everyone else. Each person should be free to enjoy it in the legal manner they choose without demeaning comments from others.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
It's through the exchange of ideas, information, practices, opinions, etc., that as a society we develop a set of norms as to what constitutes appropriate behavior. It's no different in the hunting community. Through the sharing of information, opinions regarding different practices, we hopefully arrive at a generally agreed upon set of values, ethics if you will, that guides our behavior in the field.
Regarding baiting and supplemental feeding, the jury is still out. Obviously haven't come to a consensus, but I plan to continue to offer my perspective and hope others will do so as well.
Saying you don't agree with it has a whole different intent and reception than saying it's not real hunting. One is having meaningful dialogue and the other is taking a cheap shot.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
I have a grand idea if someone starts a topic and asking for an opinion then give yours. Then if it's not asking for an opinion then don't...
You can always start your own topic and not blindside someone's..
Your thread can be something like ( I'm better than you because ??? )....
Anyhow spew your vast knowledge upon us lesser gifted Bowhunters so we can learn from the best most knowledgeable and greatest archers that you are , sorry I forgot superior and that hunt with the only acceptable methods that should be accepted...
Carry on TJ , would love to share a camp with you someday...
,,,,Sam,,,
[attachment=1]
The bucks like it ....
Tim B
Also thanks for the reminder , I need to refresh my mineral sights up also...
,,,Sam,,,
Quote from: SAM E. STEPHENS on February 28, 2019, 09:43:03 PM
Also thanks for the reminder , I need to refresh my mineral sights up also...
,,,Sam,,,
Me as well. Will be doing it this weekend at the lease. A nice mixture from some Mininites in Missouri.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
KentuckyTJ; if I haven't thanked you then consider this as a thank you. [attachment=1]
Been on this site since not long after it started. It sure has changed. At one time, remarks like some of these, would never have been allowed. This place has surely gone to the dogs. Wish it would get back on track.
Wow ...again.
I'd like to apologize for not reading every post on every single thread on Tradgang every single day.... It's virtually impossible.
Although I have now read through this entire thread....
I see that some of y'all thought that this thread was not civil.... Yet you want to complain instead of hitting the moderator alert button letting us know. I've been fishing thousands of times but I've never 'caught them all'.... And I never will.
You see, No matter how hard we try we just can't win sometimes...
Pull posts and get accused of being 'heavy handed'...
Allow what we see as civil debate yet no mod alerts...and we've 'gone to the dogs'....
We'll try to do better next time ...and those of you who think we've gone to the dogs, maybe you should try being a moderator. :help:
Terry I don't think we should always call the moderators. I think we can discuss our issues most of the time. Yeah there were some less than pleasant posts in the thread but I believe if more folks let it be known they don't appreciate those approaches then we can learn how to better communicate. Personally I appreciate that opportunity. If users of a forum think they will always agree on things they won't be happy much. The back button is my friend.[emoji16]
There are of course instances where immediate response from mods is needed.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Yes Mr Cook, you are correct....we don't want it abused...mostly when a blatant rule has been broken.
E.t. all...
And, be aware...just be cause you do put up a mod alert doesn't mean we will automatically agree with you. We will have to take into consideration track record and context. But we will consider your alert.
Here are four deer that made great improvement also in past couple seasons.
[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]
[attachment=4]
Looking good to me!!! [attachment=1]
Thanks for the heads up TJ.
I was going to comment on some things, especially.....
But I'm with Sam on this one, you were providing FYI and not asking for opinions.
Quote from: KentuckyTJ on March 01, 2019, 04:40:08 PM
Here are four deer that made great improvement also in past couple seasons.
[attachment=1,msg2854728]
[attachment=2,msg2854728]
[attachment=3,msg2854728]
[attachment=4,msg2854728]
Dang Cuz.... I was going to invite you down to SC this fall but looks like you are going to have your hands full up there this year! ;) I still have plenty of other critters for you to stick around here though.
I went and picked up my minerals today and will be putting them and some cameras out this weekend. I will keep everyone posted of anything exciting!
Studs.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Just calling it like I see it....
I think we are good here on TG some just like to rock the boat and that's fine I'm gonna rock back...
Thanks Terry and all the mods and folks that keep the site going I know it's a ton of work....
Outstanding bucks TJ....
Carry on .......
,,,Sam,,,
This thread is back on track and we are going to keep it that way....in respect for the OPs original intent.
Thank you.
Quote from: Terry Green on March 02, 2019, 09:25:40 AM
This thread is back on track and we are going to keep it that way....in respect for the OPs original intent.
Thank you.
Terry hit the nail on the head...
back on track to stay!!
What all parameter do you consider when choosing a site?
I usually put mine in some cover, but open enough for them to see predators coming. Also, near travel routes, but not right on top of them.
Also, I've found that the sites in loose shale seem to get rooted up the most. I'm not sure if this a soil preference, or if the salt and minerals simply leach deeper so they have to dig for them. I've actually been able to hear deer crunching on rocks.
Great question. Like you state the spots I picked are right close to thickets that through the years have been preferred home range spots. Also the spots are fairly open. Also I pick a low spot that gathers rain water as that helps dissolve the granules. I then grub up the soil and chop it up pretty fine. Then spread and mix the mineral into the soil. From the cameras they really start hitting it after a couple good rains.