Post by: C. Johnson on September 16, 2018, 09:08:42 PM
A couple things about making your own shafts:
One, it is a lot of work! But, if you're a sick monkey like me who enjoys this sort of thing, it's very rewarding.
Second, a guy can make good quality shafts for 50-75 cents per shaft. With that in mind, $40-$50 per dozen spine matched shafts from any reputable supplier is a bargain. Seems contradictory, I know.
In other words, if you want to make your own shafts, do it because you derive satisfaction from making your own tackle. Or you're a glutton for punishment. Or both.
When it comes to what wood to select to make shafts from, Port Orford is arguably the best. Unfortunately, I've never found it available in 4/4 stock. Only finished shafts. However, there are other species which work equally well and are a lot easier to get one's hands on.
I've tried numerous types of wood, but what I like best is Poplar and Douglas Fir. I prefer Poplar for workability, strength, and cost. Doug Fir is a much more attractive wood and finishes better.
I found a supplier who will ship small quantities of quarter sawn Poplar in 36" pieces. Sadly, they are in San Francisco, CA and I'm in Colorado Springs. Shipping is a bit expensive. Still, I can get enough material, (10 board feet) to make about 120-140 shafts for $80, including shipping. Unfortunately, I cannot hand select myself, so there may be some material that has too much run out to make a good shaft. I use this for laminated shafts, so I don't really lose anything. The vast majority of quarter sawn Poplar I buy from them is near perfect though. Probably 50% of it has NO grain run out.
Anyway, here's some pics of my madness......
(http://i.imgur.com/AjCpHvw.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 16, 2018, 09:11:36 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/pUzyzxr.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 16, 2018, 09:16:29 PM
I know this pic is pointless, since it doesn't really show anything. I'm just posting it because I learned how to post pics. Without any help or supervision from my kids.... ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/I1O6DJr.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 16, 2018, 09:17:23 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/6Rxtl4h.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 16, 2018, 09:26:28 PM
This is the advantage to having a gunsmith machine the shaft cutter for me. These guys whole world is measured in thousands of an inch.
There is some breakage. Any imperfection in the raw shaft and it is unlikely to survive. I can set it slightly undersize, but I have to sand the shafts after machining. Laminated shafts must be done this way.
(http://i.imgur.com/SiFHFvL.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 16, 2018, 09:27:12 PM
Post by: C. Johnson on September 16, 2018, 09:28:42 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/NxfmMKk.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 16, 2018, 09:37:43 PM
That's all I have for now, I'll post more as the project moves along.
Thanks for looking!
Post by: fujimo on September 16, 2018, 11:14:15 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2018, 05:38:52 AM
And yes a lot work.
I've used one of those veritas dowel cutters.
Drove me nuts trying to get it adjusted right.
Finally gave up on it.
But thanks to a guy from the far north west up in B.C.
I have 144 premium shafts on hand.
And I have some tonkin bamboo shafts almost done.
You like poplar the best?
I always looked at poplar as a softer wood?
Educate me there..
Post by: George Tsoukalas on September 17, 2018, 08:11:32 AM
Post by: Mark Smeltzer on September 17, 2018, 09:02:07 AM
Post by: C. Johnson on September 17, 2018, 09:25:06 AM
Poplar is approximately the same hardness as Port Orford cedar. Janka hardness of 540, according to Wood Database. POC is about 550, as I recall. So, yes it is pretty soft, but it's also tough. Malleable would be a good word to describe it.
In fact, it seems to have been used extensively by the English for arrows back when the longbow was an important military weapon.
There was an English warship called the Mary Rose which sank in about 1545. On board were the remains of well over 1000 arrows. Modern testing showed most of these arrows to have been constructed of either aspen or poplar. Birch was also common.
Poplar shafts have been made and sold commercially in modern times as well. I believe Twig archery sells shafting.
I'm certainly no expert on this, but I can tell you from my own experience, poplar shafts seem to be far more durable than POC shafts. Especially when you miss and hit rocks/trees as often as I do when on the 3D course. ;) I have no way of proving this scientifically though.
Mostly I like it for arrows because of the straight grain, workability, and cost. It does take a bit more work to straighten the shafts compared to other species and they don't like to take stain evenly. Also, for some unknown reason, the waterbased polyurethane I use for arrow finish doesn't like to go on as smoothly as it does on Doug Fir. Nothing functionally problematic, just looks a little rough.
I have the fancy Veritas dowel cutter. If the blades are kept shaving sharp, it does a fine job on Poplar. It doesn't work nearly as well on Doug Fir. Excessive grain tear out. Even if the blades are hair popping sharp. Also, if I don't want to sand, I have to run the shafts through a separate compression/burnishing process.
George,
Flat sawn Poplar is commonly available where I live, but I don't get nearly as many functional shafts from a board as I do with quarter sawn wood. With quarter sawn or rift sawn, the grain orientation is better, with much less run out.
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
Post by: fujimo on September 17, 2018, 10:15:31 AM
i have read of excellent results with the poplar, many folk love using it with excellent results. I know PatB uses it a lot- and he may know a thing or two :)
arrow wood is a bit like bow wood, sometimes the best one to use, is the one you have.
one of the very positive things with poplar and birch and some of the other hardwoods, is their sustainability. a lot of relatively new wood can be used, unlike woods lik POC, where its old growth wood that needs to be harvested.
shaft making was a significant contributor to the decline in POC trees, which were extremely limited in number to begin with. The POC tree only grows in two places in the world.
its now regulated, and cannot be cut on govt land i believe, so any POC that gets harvested is from private woodlots or private land.
Additionally, they are forced to use wood today that a short time ago was considered cull wood.
i too am not that impressed with POC, i mean, its an excellent arrow wood, but there are certainly better options out there. imho!!
i also used to use one of those veritas dowellers, and they worked extremely well, but there seemed to be two key factors with them.
1. as mentioned above- blades need to be kept super sharp.
2. the shaft needs to be very well stabilized on the infeed and outfeed sides, any whip in the shaft will cause tear out.
i ran doug fir through mine with no problem- but i would keep the feed rate really slow, and the rotation speed as high as possible- i even bought a special drill- that was very high speed, specifically for the job.
in my experience, one must consider all the factors when making shafts- and the wood data base is an excellent source for a lot of the info.
However, the one aspect they dont report on is the "length of fibre" some woods just have longer fibers than others- the longer the fiber the more resilient the wood is.
the other factor is a little less well know, but all woods have a "microfiber" that runs perpendicular to the grain of the wood- its these little fibers that bind the longitudinal fibers together and help prevent the wood from splitting.
The key here, is that some woods have a higher percentage of these connective fibers than other woods.
Just like with bows, we do a bend test to ascertain how well it will perform as a bow wood, with shafts a split test reveals a lot.
1. how well the wood splits
2 how easily it splits.
if its splits well with little deviation and runout, and one can pull strings of wood off the face of the split- will help indicate the length of fiber.
if it splits super easy, that indicates that it has less of the connective fibers, if good, clean straight wood is tough to split, that will mean there is more of the connective fibers.
now of course, these tests are not very scientific and are rather subjective, as results will vary from tree to tree. However, if one does enough of the tests some common results will begin to present themselves.
my personal favourite "softwood" arrow wood, is Sitka spruce, not the cheaper German spruce mind you!!
Sika is light in mass, ( yes, softer in Janka hardness) has an incredibly high amount of the interconnective fibers, with a very long grain.
there is good reason why its considered the strongest wood for its weight in the world, and was used extensively in airplane frames, and for masts and spars on sailing vessels.
not comparing to hardwoods, but i have found it to be the most resilient of all the softwoods.
but this is just my opinion, of course :bigsmyl:
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2018, 10:24:37 AM
:laughing: :wavey:
Post by: C. Johnson on September 17, 2018, 10:42:54 AM
That's good information. I was unaware of the length of fiber thing. Makes a lot of sense.
I have been wanting to try some Sitka. Do you have a supplier you wouldn't mind sharing?
Post by: fujimo on September 17, 2018, 10:45:22 AM
i might know a guy that could get hold of some sitka for you.
Post by: C. Johnson on September 17, 2018, 10:49:55 AM
mmmm Roy can read!!! :readit:
well, every day is a school day :laughing: :laughing:
i might know a guy that could get hold of some sitka for you.
This isn't like a mafia thing is it? I mean, I don't want to run afoul of the arrow shaft cartels.... ;) :biglaugh:
Post by: fujimo on September 17, 2018, 10:51:58 AM
yea, some bootleg Sitka!!
how much money ya got??
Post by: fujimo on September 17, 2018, 10:55:54 AM
by far the best is well-seasoned wood, that is not kiln dried.
but the reality is, if all one has is red oak boards from lowes to make a bow- well then one does what one can.
so yes, old, well-seasoned wood is the best, but almost anything will, and does suffice.
i am pretty scathing of the German spruce, because they try to promote it as "Sitka spruce" simply by omission. but in itself its not a terrible wood.
Post by: Pat B on September 17, 2018, 11:37:25 AM
Post by: C. Johnson on September 17, 2018, 11:40:08 AM
Charlie Jefferson make me a few sets of poplar arrows and I love them. They are very tough although a bit light. We found the sapwood made better arrows than the heartwood although the heartwood made good arrows. I think the heartwood is a bit more brittle.
Yes, I would definitely agree with this assessment.
Post by: Pat B on September 17, 2018, 12:46:10 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2018, 01:02:28 PM
:wavey:
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2018, 01:15:12 PM
Still have to do the wraps in front of the nocks for strength and clean the string grooves up a tad more...
And prolly a little wrap on the front of the feathers.
Post by: C. Johnson on September 17, 2018, 01:21:36 PM
I would bet that, over the course of human history, bamboo has been used to make more arrows than any other material.
I've never tried it. It's on my to do list though......
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2018, 03:28:35 PM
Craig ya gotta do it, they fly great.
Post by: Pat B on September 17, 2018, 04:41:54 PM
Post by: BMorv on September 17, 2018, 04:50:10 PM
Those came out nice Roy. What kind of weight do you get from them?
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2018, 05:10:26 PM
427
437
3@ 446
460
Post by: BMorv on September 17, 2018, 05:15:33 PM
Those look really straight with not much node variation. Where did they come from if you don't mind me asking?
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2018, 05:21:29 PM
Be great for my # 40 bow..
Ya got a pm, Mr. Ben..
Post by: fujimo on September 18, 2018, 12:12:43 AM
its pretty much the epitome of an arrow in my mind!
very nice job fella!
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 18, 2018, 07:11:26 AM
Post by: C. Johnson on September 18, 2018, 10:16:27 AM
Post by: Bvas on September 18, 2018, 10:48:45 AM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 18, 2018, 12:03:10 PM
He lives a couple roads over:)
Post by: Bvas on September 18, 2018, 12:07:57 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 18, 2018, 03:46:28 PM
LOL
Post by: EwokArcher on September 23, 2018, 09:44:03 AM
I've made 2 sets of bamboo arrows out of home depot bamboo. Heat straightening and all that. Ton of work but great experience I loved the arrows and got some good use from them. I'll keep buying carbon shafts from now on I think though.
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 23, 2018, 09:54:54 AM
Now I buy the bamboo shafts all straightened, sealed, ready for feathers...
Post by: Flem on September 23, 2018, 10:03:26 AM
Post by: C. Johnson on September 23, 2018, 07:45:05 PM
It was a busy weekend and I didn't get nearly as much done as I should have. Mainly because I had to put a new master cylinder in the wife's Toyota. What should have been a two hour project voraciously consumed most of Saturday. I really don't like working on cars anymore.
Anyway, arrows. I keep any poplar that has excessive grain runout or other minor defects and use it to make laminated shafts. I cut it into slats and discard any with major defects such as pin knots. I grind each poplar slat to about .140" and grind a center strip of maple ground to .125". These make good, durable, consistent arrows. I can control the spine by altering the thickness of the maple core and also by the finished diameter of the shaft.
Here are a few pics of the process.
This is the three pieces which comprise the laminated billet. Poplar-maple-poplar. I try to orient each one in such a way that the grain is reversed like so: ///||\\\
(http://i.imgur.com/icbp8g4.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 23, 2018, 07:46:24 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/rmgGpgp.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 23, 2018, 07:54:01 PM
Yes, I've used Smooth on to glue up my billets. It works great, but it gets kind of expensive. Also, the required clamping time is much greater. Here in dry Colorado, I usually only need to leave the billets clamped for an hour with Titebond. I do two hours just for good measure. I do not perform any further machining until the glue has cured for at least 24 hours.
(http://i.imgur.com/zqJpmXF.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 23, 2018, 07:55:05 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/Q9noklf.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 23, 2018, 07:55:53 PM
Post by: C. Johnson on September 23, 2018, 07:57:24 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/23m0A00.jpg)
Post by: C. Johnson on September 23, 2018, 08:02:14 PM
More pics to come later. Thanks for looking!
(http://i.imgur.com/99DdGeU.jpg)
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 24, 2018, 06:42:49 AM