Folks, I've been bowhunting since the late 60's and have enjoyed quite a bit of success. I believe every animal I've shot, with just a couple of exceptions, has been with a 2 blade Zwickey or something similar. A few wore some sort of "bleeder blade". I've been blessed with the ability to take most any 2 blade head and get it hair popping sharp in a short amount of time. However, I seem to be sharpening CHALLANGED when it comes to sharpening 3 blade heads. I've watched Charlie Lambs vid's on sharpening the W-W and have used those methods. While I can get a head somewhat sharp they are NO WHERE near razor sharp.. I would truly love some instruction on how to SHARPEN 3 blade heads. RAZOR SHARP..
Best Regards,
Pat
Pat B I wish I could get my Zwickeys "hair popping sharp." Have no experience with three blade heads. Good luck!
Pat,
I won't go into great details, because I'm sure there are many who will supply you with tons of specific methods.
Sharpening 3 blade BH's "on the flat, 2 blades at a time" results in each side on the bevel being at 30 degrees, for a total bevel angle of 60 degrees. When all else is equal (sharpening method and technique and the steel's quality), the thinner an edge (the lower its total bevel angle) the sharper the edge will be.
On three blade BH's, I've had the best luck by hollow-grinding the edges, to get a thinner edge, then polishing the hollow-grind with light pressure and fine grit abrasives applied to a curved surface of equal, or slightly greater diameter than the wheel used to establish the hollow-grind. A section of large PVC will work for the curved surface. Some use paper wheels to simply polish out the hollow-grind, but I find more tendency towards edge rolls (when shot into tissues) that way than when the hollow-grind has the slight 'micro-bevel' on a hollow-grind; which results from finishing the edge on a curved surface that's SLIGHTLY larger in diameter curved than the wheel used for establishing the hollow-grind. If the steel were harder (like that on the hollow-ground Silver Flame) I would polish on the same radius as the hollow-grind.
It's easy to over-do the amount of hollow-grind. Most 3-blades (all I've tested) have steel of modest hardness; low to upper R40's. I've had the best results using 8" or 10" diameter wheels for setting the hollow-grind. Smaller than that, and the hollow-grind edge tends to roll.
Hope that helps a bit,
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Easy as pie to sharpen 3 blades with a Tru Angle Hone kit or G5 Sportsman's Sharpener. After either I finish with a leather strop for that final straight razor edge...
Pat: The gist of it is it's about impossible to get a three-blade head as sharp as a two blade head because of the much larger angle of the cutting edge with a three blade. In addition to what Ed has suggested, you can also change the bevel of a three-blade head, which is sort of what hollow grinding does. My hunting partner did it by making his own true-angle type hones which he used to rebevel 160 grain Snuffers.
That would be interesting ed...Us the pvc and wet dry sandpaper. Start with say 80 or 100 grit and take it down to 1000 or 1500 as I do on my plane blades and chisels.
I know it works on a flat surface like say a piece of glass (referring to the scary sharp plane blade method). Never thought to use something as simple as pvc to increase the angles just a bit to getter even more sharper.
like Mr.Lamb's videobut finish with a leather strap.. I shave hair right off my arm.
I have used Charlie Lamb's method and it worked, but there was a recent thread on Snuffers also and I believe they said they use a bench grinder with a medium grit wheel at the factory. Anyway I used my dad's bench grinder on some WW's and they came out great. Just another way that might work for you too.
Dan,
I like to use PVC because I can soften and mold it to whatever curve I want. If you want a longer radius, one not 'standard' for the PVC pipes, just split the pipe in half lengthwise, than warm one piece in the oven (at about 160 degrees F.) unto the PVC is soft and pliable. That only takes a few minutes; watch close and test often to avoid getting it too soft. Remove it and press it firmly over something having the curve you want, smothing it out and holding it in place until it cools. Just pressing it over a section of pipe of the same nominal size will increase the radius some; by making the inner radius the same as the pipe's outer radius. You can then heat and use the other piece over that one to get an even longer radius of curvature; and so forth.
PVC is useful for making lots of things, and I save the 'scraps' for making into flat sheets of PVC; or for shaping into parts for various projects.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
I myself dont get what all the fuss is about sharpening the 3 blades, yesterday I got a new batch of 145g snuffers, I was hesitant cuz I never sharpend them before, but followin lambs instructions, insted replaced the file with a coarse,mild and smooth set of stones, swiped each head a few times on each stone, and got them razor ready to hunt and shave afterswards sharp!
spent about 5-6 min on each head
It is pretty easy as long as you don't have garbage WW's to begin with......
Pat B.... if your using a Snuffer Tamer and BH keeps skipping across the files not grabbing and not removing in a uniform state, trying heating the edge with a torch to blue color. This softens the metal and the files will grab the head. Then you can use lighter and lighter pressure to get a very sharp serrated edge by flipping each stroke.
Dr. Ed...FYI...Silver Flames possess a Convex edge not a Hollow Ground (Concave) as you posted. Also German Kinectics promote a Convex head for supperior bone busting penetration. :D
Joey,
Thanks for that 'heads up'. I just check it out on his web site and Markus has, indeed, changed the bevel of the Silver Flames. All the initial models I tested; and all the Silver Flames I have; have the hollow ground edge. This was one of the aspects Markus and I discussed after the initial testing, but I was unaware the change had been made. The 'edge concerns' were solely with the tip bends and breaks. The hollow-grind left a very thin edge at the tip, and the change in the bevel should strengthen this aspect of the BH substantially.
Does this make my hollow-ground Silver Flames collector's items? Might have to move them all into my 'retirement fund'! :bigsmyl:
Thanks again,
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
your welcome Doc, i enjoy reading your posts and observe from your writings you are a stickler for "just the facts" so I thought you would need to know of the change. Heres a question I can not understand. 'How is a german CNC machine putting that Convex edge on? Markus told me when he recieves the head from his manufacture, he takes the microscopic wire burr off with elephant leather and compound...Thats it...So i guess the CNC router tool is Concave to produce a Convex shoulder/edge? I can ALMOST get mine back to original sharpness of his with of coarse straight edge shoulders.
Joey, If I am reading you right----you are heating the edge on a broadhead to Blue Color. That temperature brings the edge to 560-590 degrees F. You just lost all the temper hardness...leaving soft steel. It sure will be easy to have a file cut it, but there won't be any hardness to keep an edge...tippit
Temper Color Chart:
http://www.anvilfire.com/index.php?bodyName=/FAQs/temper_colors.htm&titleName=Temper%20Colors%20:%20anvilfire.com
Markus is a true expert on the capabilities of the CNC process in metalworking. It appears that one can acomplish virtually anything the mind can imagine - but at a cost. No doubt that Markus has redefined what "quality" means in broadhead steel!
With the high hardness of the steel, I suspect it would take a bit more work to resharpen the new edge by hand; as opposed to the old hollow-ground bevel. Those were easy to resharpen. That not withstanding, I'm glad Markus made that change. Knowing his attention to details and committment to quality, I'll bet Markus did a bunch of edge-bevel testing after I had those bent and chipped tips. I had initial concerns about the thin hollow-ground edges holding up all along the blade's edge but, other than at the tip, none were every damaged. In the new configuration, that edge should be near bomb proof!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Tippit indeed your reading me right.....i am not schooled at all in the art of tempering steel. But I can get a WW and Snuffers smoking (no pun intended) sharp. Razor Sharp. I have shot thorough several wild boar hogs with 2 inch shields coast to coast and they still shave hair. i shot a 450# black bear coast to coast..( years ago.it still cuts hair. I have been heating my snuffer edges when Roger R first came out with them. I have resharpened these heads again and again back to sharpness. I am not reading a scale in a book to tell me right or wrong....I'm shooting critters!..Heating these types of heads for me has really worked. I'm really not concerned about the temper hardness of a head. I am more concerned with how razor sharp i can get the head to go 20" through tissue. This is a tool for short work. if i lose temper hardness so what? i have never had a head to fail either and thats with Roththaar, Delta and now Magnus. IMO Magnus would sell more heads if they made them (softer) easier to sharpen. Remember I'm not sharpening a BH like a knife that will cut and cut and cut lets say 1000" ( butchering a deer). You would want temper for that type of blade. But instead i'm sharpening a blade that is not of best metal that I'm flaking a burr off with a file ( Snuffer Tamer). This blade will only travel at most 12" to 24" through water made tissue then bury in the ground/sand and get dull. I do not need temper of a knife.However I would sharpen a Razorcap different since the metal is IMO better quality. So you stated "if you take the hardness out, you will lose your edge?" I totally disagree.
From the animals I have shot the last 20 years, the heated snuffer and WW has been very serrated razor sharp on the other side coming out. let the temper police slap my hand but i'll stick too experience.
I use a medium diamond sharpener (the long flat ones) and then go to a fine and ultra fine sandstone sharpener. The Montecs are hard to sharpen, so I called them and they recommend all diamond, but i can't afford that, so I start with a diamond and work that way. You can get them real sharp, I you can shave with them.
Just remember that some heads are harder than others and may take more time.
Doc Ed.. you mention above a very good point. I might have been the first to point that out here on this site a month ago. The steel used for these silver flames is defintely different than the majority of two bladed "traditional" heads we have in the states. I would not mind paying more for a head made in US of that quality. Most people on here do not understand how sharp these german heads are until they have bought one
If I may, what the heck is a Snuffer Tamer ?
Thanks for all the input..
A few posts back JC mentioned a method that "Joey" shared with him for sharpening Shuffers that made them "a close second to the Silver Flames".. Does anyone know what this method might be ???
Joey, I have a different idea for you...notice I didn't say better :) I do disagree with shooting a soft tempered edge as it will surely turn over with hits into bone etc. Some WW do have one edge that is much harder than the other two...therefor being difficult to sharpen on a file.
If you want to soften the temper put the head in an oven for an hour. I'd start between 375-400 degrees. The steel will come out a dark bronze color to blue. That way you can selectively soften without losing edge quality.
I sharpen my WW with my Knife Grinder always keeping the edge cooled. Granted not a good option to most...but the edge comes out as sharp as you could possible get it and still will hold the sharpness thru bone...Doc
Tippit , like I said before. I have never had an edge roll over by torch heating the edge. I encourage everyone that is having trouble sharpening the heads to try my torch method. furthermore edgerollover is caused more by design ( concave, V angle) than temper. again i can not prove on paper just dead animals.
Joey, that MAY happen. I'll know more in a couple of months. There's a single-bevel in the works that is SUPPOSED to be of the same steel, treated the same. It's also SUPPOSED to come "surgically sharp, like the Silver Flame".
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Good luck Doc, it would be awesome to see the bar raised on a head of that quality. Surgically sharp that you can touch up by simply stropping on leather and compound......utopia!...make it 1.5" wide for us wideheads!
... and 4.5" long? :biglaugh:
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Ole Howard would be proud!!
hey Doc..heres your features and benefits for the "Mac Truck head" ( Austrian for Broadhead)
FOC magnum.......flys like a competiton dart
3 to 1...........unmatched penetration
1.5" wide........entrance or exit wounds never close
Single bevel......if you have to hit bone, it will bust through
9"of cuttingedge......massive hemoraging
250 grains...........no added weight tubes or etc.
:bigsmyl:
I think you would change the rockwell hardness and strength when you heat it... :)but if it works it works...
Pat, contact Joey and he'll give you all the details. Basically, his torch method, a snuffer tamer and some special 60,000 grit polishing compound. Sounds too simple to be true, but it works. I don't know much, but I do know the 160 snuffer Joey sent to me was one of the sharpest pieces of steel I've had in my hands. I don't just mean sharp, I mean second only to the SF's out of the package imho. And you gots to remember this guy's taken the superslam of turkeys with a stickbow and has a stack of big hog kill pics that would throw you back out moving em. He's put these heads to the test a few times. Don't know how mine will hold up at that temperature/temper etc. but hopefully we'll see how it does on a hog in the next few months.
Tippit, I'll try it in the oven too and see if I can tell a difference in durability. I assume your knife grinder is putting a hollow ground edge on? Can you tell me the process you are using...I'd like to use my paperwheel on 3 blades too but don't think I could do it carefully and still maintain a consistent angle. With 2 blades at a time near the wheel, I'd be worried the near blade would catch and end up cutting my finger(s) off :scared:
JC is too kind with compliments and I'm sure there are plenty with equal or more experience than me on here with sharpening Fixed 3 blades like snuffers and/or WW. My advice is try every method. Pick the one that suits you. If you are concerned that my advice on heating the edge would weaken the edge hardness then experiment yourself like I have. Lets face it, this type of fixed 3 blade design is not on the top of the list as a bone busting-penetrating head through heavy bone like a 2 blade. But a rib shot through and through, it's awesome and the edges have never rolled for me. On a rockwell scale how hard is fresh green rib bone? What hardness degree does an edge start to roll on bone? was the edge hollow ground, convex, or concave? 19degrees or 24 degrees....I don't know these answers either :) But i do Know my heated heads sharpen on a Snuffer tamer angle file and leather stropped will not roll shot through whitetails and knarely hogs. PM me and I would be glad to help any
Just recalling from oldshool, but, if the blade was manufactured correctly in the first place, Why would you not be able to finish off the sharpening process by following the original taper with a few strokes on the stone?
Way too much overdo ends up with an underdo.
Bowferd... you bring up an excellent point. I change the angle of the shoulders on my Snuffers/WW out of the packet to add slight more angle for thinner edge since I single cut FILE sharpen it. Probably taking it from 28 degrees to 20 degrees. This thinner edge will produce a BETTER burr to flip back and forth.
Hey Joey, Can you bring one of those to the PBS banquet? I'd like to see it and meet you...tippit
JC, KMG grinder puts a perfect flat edge on WW but certainly is an expensive way to do it...if I weren't already making knives! I have found that a lot of WW do have one edge harder and not flat, so it used to be difficult for me to get them sharp with a large file before I went to my grinder. I don't soften them personally...tippit
KMG for flat grind but I use a worn out 120 grit belt for the edge.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Knife%20Shop/IMG_2446.jpg)
Tippit,
Could you please show a photo with a WW or snuffer on the belt?
Thanks & I look forward to meeting you all in Pittsburg
Tippit....my wife is on me now for shaving my arms!!!!...i am scared it's so sharp it would cut through the luggage. But i'll try to bring one.... I think Tom Mussato has a video somewhere he sharpens one exactly like I do except for the heating....there is alot of us SnufferTamers out there
Jeff, when you said grinder, I thought of my lil 8" bench grinder. I fergot I was talkin to a bladesmith...that's that monster machine you got from Doug Campbell isn't it? That's a serious piece of gear. I've had that same issue with WW's: one blade softer or harder than the others, makes for a somewhat lopsided head when done on a flat file. I know a belt sander wouldn't be as precise but would that work as well? I know Terry and some others do that with woodsmans and it works for them. Do you change belts and go down to a finer grit? What's the start to final grits that you use? Always interested in new ways to sharpen.
I wonder if we could figure out a way to get that super fine finishing powder joey sent me on a "empty" belt? That might be the best of both worlds.
JC, Like I said, if you're not planing on becoming a bladsmith, this ain't a very inexpensive way to sharpen a broadhead :eek: The belt on that picture is a 50 grit. What I use for a broadhead is a worn out 120 grit...more like a 400-600 grit. When you're finished, you can see your smile on the edge or the bear's big eyes!
A belt sander is much harder to use cause most are too fast. My grinder can be slowed way down for better control.