Thinking about switching to Grizzly 190s because of the great penatration? I had a buddy who used to shoot 160s, he had great penatration but the lousy`s blood trails i ever seen. I've heard other people say the same. Has anybody else experienced this? does the larger 190s bleed better?
Blood trails, good or bad have far more to do with shot placement and broadhead sharpness than the broadheads size or blade count.
A well placed, razor sharp Grizzly will leave just as good a blood trail as any other broadhead.
Ron
Sharpster,are grizzly`s ur btoadhead of choice?
i've used them on deer many times. i can't tell the difference (in either bloodtrail or ability to kill) between them or the 2 blade magnus or the 2 blade zwickey. get them sharp and they perform as expected!
I wholeheartedly agree with Sharpster, and I've had no bloodtrail issues with Grizzlies.
well this spring bear hunt; I will be taking pictures.. then we will see for sure. End the whole contraversy. Totally erase any doubts. Completely eliminate the need for the '?' on the keyboard. Close the issue. Be the ultimate of wise.
I have thought about it; and counted to three...
Say what you want but a bigger broadhead means a bigger wound to bleed and a bigger hole to release blood. Regardless of where you hit this is true. I'm sure grizzlies are fine, they are just not capable of majic. Penetrate well, yes. As good a blood trail as a bigger cutting head no.
Most of the stuff I shoot with them dies within sight, very quickly, so I've never noticed much blood except all over the ground where they drop.
QuoteOriginally posted by Paul Shirek:
Say what you want but a bigger broadhead means a bigger wound to bleed and a bigger hole to release blood. Regardless of where you hit this is true. I'm sure grizzlies are fine, they are just not capable of majic. Penetrate well, yes. As good a blood trail as a bigger cutting head no.
Not if that bigger broadhead has a mediocre level of sharpness compared to a narrower broadhead that is ultra, scary sharp. You can make a huge hole and still sever a much smaller surface area of blood vessels (capillaries, arterioles, venules, arteries & veins) than what will be severed by a supersharp blade that creates a much smaller hole - even with the exact same shot placement. The importance of the hole size takes a distant second to the importance of how many capillaries have been severed.
What some people may consider to be scary sharp can be worlds apart from what another considers to be scary sharp. Have a look at the video on Sharpster's website where he sharpens a broadhead, and see how easily the hair pops off his forearm when he's done. I can take an almost sharp broadhead and shave hair (moving wrist to elbow or elbow to wrist) by applying sufficient pressure. But there is a huge difference between that and barely touching the blade to your skin and having every single hair that was barely contacted by the blade get cut.
then there is the whole hole thing; the straight cut of a double bevel blade; versus the 'S' cut of the single bevel with a heavy arrow and a correct twist.
Settle down people; I will shoot one arrow and solve this entire question.
:thumbsup:
Yep, a cut's a cut...if there's a poor blood trail, it's not usually the broadhead's fault (provided it's proper sharp to begin with).
QuoteOriginally posted by flatbowMB:
QuoteOriginally posted by Paul Shirek:
Say what you want but a bigger broadhead means a bigger wound to bleed and a bigger hole to release blood. Regardless of where you hit this is true. I'm sure grizzlies are fine, they are just not capable of majic. Penetrate well, yes. As good a blood trail as a bigger cutting head no.
Not if that bigger broadhead has a mediocre level of sharpness compared to a narrower broadhead that is ultra, scary sharp. You can make a huge hole and still sever a much smaller surface area of blood vessels (capillaries, arterioles, venules, arteries & veins) than what will be severed by a supersharp blade that creates a much smaller hole - even with the exact same shot placement. The importance of the hole size takes a distant second to the importance of how many capillaries have been severed.
What some people may consider to be scary sharp can be worlds apart from what another considers to be scary sharp. [/b]
Exactly right Flatbow. :thumbsup:
Brian, I didn't think this was a single vs. double bevel question.
I do like Grizzlys, and Zwickys, Magnus and others. I'm partial to two blade heads in general because I consistantly get the best groups shooting two blades. Shot placement trumps all else so, shoot whatever head flys the best for you. Then make sure they're insanely sharp and you can follow the red carpet to your animal.
Ron
I had a buck a couple of years back that I shot a shaving sharp 160 Grizzly through the heart into the opposite shoulder. The buck went 80 yards, I only found two dime size drops. to where the buck was downed. However, that same year I was convinced I lost a doe that I put two arrows though, one at twenty yards and the second at forty five. The first arrow went through the deer and stuck in a tree, the second was uphill on the edge of a flat spot on the hill side. The blood trail dead ended twenty feet past where the last hit was. The next morning we figured it out when I found my arrow. I was following my arrow's blood trail. The doe was down under a cedar ten yards away, at a right angle from the arrow flight, with a good blood trail leading right to her. If I would have not waited until dark to trail the deer I would not have gotten my directions turned and would have realized the direction the deer traveled after the hit. A brighter flash light would have helped as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Yep, a cut's a cut....
That is but a part of the whole (hole?) truth. Take any 2 broadheads of identical dimensions (whether they are both single bevel or both double bevel - as long as they are the same), with the only difference being level of sharpness. One being truly ultra scary sharp, the other being almost sharp (eg. "I cut my finger on it" or "I can scrape my finger nail with it" pseudo sharp).
Even if both of these broadheads passed completely through the same spot of any given animal, the ultrasharp blade will slice a whole lot more capillaries, alveoli and other microstructures than the pseudosharp blade will.
That means much more profuse bleeding will be induced.
Not only that, but the ultrafine slice through these microstructures that is created by a supersharp edge (compared to a rougher cut from a quasisharp or burred edge, or a tearing cut from a serrated edge) will not stimulate coagulants to migrate to the finely cut structures. A rough cut or tearing cut does stimulate coagulants to the damaged structures and quickly work to lessen the degree of bleeding.
In a nutshell, a sharper blade will cause the animal to bleed alot faster and alot longer than a 'kinda sharp' blade.
Again lets look at the scenario of 2 identically dimensioned broadheads passing completely through the same spot of a given animal. In this scenario the 2 heads are both equally extremely sharp prior to shooting. The only difference being that one head uses a superior metal that can hold it's edge alot longer than the other. Alot of people think that this isn't important, because one pass through on an animal will not dull a broadhead edge enough to make a difference. This again is a false assumption. Even with a perfectly placed broadside shot, the odds of at least one edge of the head nicking a rib upon entry (and exit) is far greater than it not touching a rib. This is enough to drastically dull an edge of most broadheads being marketed today.
While I'm on a rant, there are a couple of other things to get off my chest;
A. Many, many broadheads which are claimed by their manufacturers to be 'hunting sharp out of the box' are nowhere close to it.
B. There is no such thing as a sharp edge with a burr.
C. Serrated edges are a marketing gimmick that is detrimental to the quality of a cut. The rationale behind their use that I've read is that they will 'grip & tear' larger tough, elastic vessels which would otherwise be pushed out of the way by a smoother edge. If a smooth edge is truly, truly sharp, it will simlply slice right through a large artery without displacing it in the least. While there are collagenous fibers in an arterial wall they certainly aren't going to give significant resistance to an extremely sharp blade. It's not as though there is cartilage or bone in arterial walls.
Mark Residorf, M.Sc. (Anatomical Biomechanics)
In addition to what Flatbow said, I think a pass through will produce a significantly better blood trail. Besides the obvious two holes to bleed from, an arrow stopped by a large bone is stuck in the wound inhibiting blood loss.
What Mark, Michael, Ron and Ray said. Not much to add to that. One of the scariest things in bowhunting I've seen are the many different interpretations of what's "scary sharp"!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Thanks for the input on the heads, i have never shot griz but maybe soon for there penation value, an they will be sharp! i strap all my heads for the final step.
I shot a 4 pt elk last fall with a 190 gr grizzly on a wood shaft. Total of about 750 grains for the arrow.
I didn't notice the blood trail as the elk fell about 35 yards away.
I did notice quite a bit of blood shot meat on the oppisite shoulder. Must of hit a big bone really hard.
BigArcher
Kinda like Ray said. Although I`ve never used grizzlies I am a big fan of two blade heads. I usually blood trail about 1/4 of the critters I shoot or less. After a good double lung shot I see or hear them fall.I shoot Magnus I`s most of the time but they are not 1 1/2 .I file them till they are around 1 3/16 but long.They have a slight concave shape and are deadly. Kinda like a narrower Interceptor.I`m sure the Grizzly head will bleed a plenty if hit low and in the lungs.Anywhere other than that the blood could be less with any head.RC
David, any more details about the shot and hit on your elk that you can share?
I'm fairly certain your surmise is correct. About the only time you'll see 'blood shot' meat with a broadhead tipped arrow is where bone has been heavily impacted. It's not 'blood shot' in the sense of the hydrostatic shock one sees with high-velocity impacts, but is simply localized bruising of soft tissues. However, you can rest assured that your arrow was still carrying a substantial level of force when it reached that bone!
"The greatest aid to animal recovery is a SHORT blood trail"
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Grizzly 160 honed so sharp it cuts before it even hits the animal LOL
Some say they cant get a good blood trail from a 2 blade, it's not the 2 blade that is keeping you from having a good blood trail, it's the razors edge your not getting.
When you push a fat 3 or 4 blade through you leave a bigger hole which can let more blood out that hole, however if you don't have an exit it's all inside.
I want a pass through every time, no exceptions and if you have a supper sharp razor honed 2 blade the blood just pours out the hole.
This here is what we call a blind man's blood trail. :goldtooth:
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/blindmansbloodtrail.jpg)
Kingwoodbe, I could follow that blood trail.RC
My experence with over 10yrs with the grizz both 160 and 190 is the same as Ray Hammond. Even if they bleed internally not much blood trail, they die quick.
I am color blind and have trouble with blood trails, the grizz has been good to me.
Jack,it`s not the good hit i`m worry about it`s the not so good hit`s we make, it happen`s to everyone soooner or later. Internall bleeding is not good if thats the dorm. I hunt in wet swampy areas that make good blood trails bad. That`s what my concern is. With these condition`s in mind ,are grizs my best option? 10yrs shooting the same head i defently will respect ur input,THANKS
I wasn't there but I had a relative put a large 4 blade completely through an 8 pointer broadside at 14 yards. Somewhere around the top of the heart. He had a lousy blood trail, but thankfully the deer did not go far. He pointed this out as his questioning to me was "Why were the lungs full of air like a ballon with very little blood? I told him to sharpen his broadheads and that he was lucky he hit the heart or the deer may have gotten away. He said "They are sharp right out of the package"! Yeah right!
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd69/BigArcher/P1010012.jpg
Dr. Ashby,
The elk was standing pretty much broadside at about 35 to 40 yards. Facing to my right. Down hill at maybe a 15 deg angle.
I was a fairly heavy arrow (Approx 750gr) with the 190 gr grizzly out of a 93# Osage bow.
The arrow flew very smoothly. I actually was distracted from the spot I shot at by seeing the arrow in flight and remember thinking "beautiful".
As I was wondering if I had hit it ( yelling to myself "NO, I couldn't have missed") I heard the elk fall. Woomp! I could see him from where I stood.
The entry wound is visible in the picture.
hearing them fall is SO SWEET!!!!!!!!!Congratulations nice shot!
Hattrick
I have had great hits and not so great hits with the griz. Great blood trails and not so great. One muley in Nevada jumped the string and turned away. The griz went all the way thru the ham severed the femoral. It was a horrible hit but the easiest blood trail I ever followed. The deer lasted 30 yds. The griz has turned some not so great hits into meat in the freezer for me. No one likes bad hits but they happen. Since the oringal Natal study and a little before that even, I have know that the penetration of the griz cuts and cuts.
The blade that does the most cutting and still gives you ample penitration is always best.Even if I shoot light weight bows I still know the cutting in the right places is what does the killing.Not numbers in weight or poundage.You simply cut them and they bleed to death.Everyone has to make some sort of compramise when setting up there rigs.As long as I can get bigger broadheads out the other side I will never choose a smaller one. :)If I can get 3 or 4 blades through something there is no reason to shoot a two blade ect. jmho
James, I know you favor the tree sharks and based on some of the recommendations you had previously posted here on TG, I did try them on deer. I believe I had previously posted some pictures of the results, but I can't seem to find that thread. I might still have those pictures on file if interested.
QuoteOriginally posted by flatbowMB:
B. There is no such thing as a sharp edge with a burr.
C. Serrated edges are a marketing gimmick that is detrimental to the quality of a cut. The rationale behind their use that I've read is that they will 'grip & tear' larger tough, elastic vessels which would otherwise be pushed out of the way by a smoother edge. If a smooth edge is truly, truly sharp, it will simlply slice right through a large artery without displacing it in the least. While there are collagenous fibers in an arterial wall they certainly aren't going to give significant resistance to an extremely sharp blade. It's not as though there is cartilage or bone in arterial walls.
Whew, that's good news to all the countless numbers of critters that have been taken with "old fashiioned", file sharpened burred edges. Get up guys...you're all ok! ;)
I like both edges (honed/polished using strops, paper wheel etc. and edges only file sharpened)...and have killed animals cleanly with both. I think if you lose an animal with a "shaving sharp" broadhead, you'll lose it whether it's honed to the nth degree or just come off the file...cuz you probably hit it bad.
Silver flames are the standard of broadhead sharpness in my opinion (hand stropped)....Joebuck's snuffer he sent me is a close second (filed then stropped with a micro-paste)....Ray Hammond's Griz aren't too far behind (file sharpened and lightly stropped but you can see the burr)....tied with Charlie Lamb's Woodsmans (file sharpened then serrated with the edge of the file, then light pass over the croc). I wouldn't want to get cut by any of them and all have enough historical success to be called "the correct way to sharpen", imho.
And back to the original question regarding griz and blood trails, a typical scene hunting with Ray goes like this: "Walking up to Ray lounging in his stand..."Did you shoot?"...."Yep."...."Ok, well let's get to tracking!"...."Nope."..."Why not?"..."He's right there (pointing at a critter lying a few yards from where I stand)." Curtis Kellar, who shoots a griz most of the time usually has the same scenario played out in his woods. Never had the opportunity to bloodtrail a critter shot with a Griz...but danged if they don't kill!
Maybe the next advancement in shaving technology that Gillete will put forward will be burred razor blades. Having a burr on an edge does not mean it won't cut, it simply means that the edge is unfinished and could be sharper.
If I were shaving my face, I certainly would take the smoothest edge I could find....opinions vary regarding how much "finishing" you need to cleanly kill an animal. I prefer them to expire via pneumothorax myself.
QuoteOriginally posted by JC:
....opinions vary regarding how much "finishing" you need to cleanly kill an animal. I prefer them to expire via pneumothorax myself.
How much finishing is needed goes back to the point of my first 2 posts in this thread - the sharper, the better. The sharper the edge, the more bleeding. A burred edge will never be as sharp as it could be. A serrated edge will never be as sharp as it could otherwise be.
There is no solid logical reason to put a serrated edge on a broadhead. The only way that an artery or other major blood vesssel could pushed out of the way by the edge of a broadhead is if that edge is not truly sharp in the first place.
As I said "opinions vary"....and there're countless dead animals as evidence.
JC, opinions are like certain body parts and most stink IMHO.
Lets go with science and the MOUNTAIN of evidence the good Doc. has so selflessly put together for us.
Yes, my friend lots and lots of animals have been killed with less than the best arrow broadhead combination.
Yes, you can kill them with a filed sharpened broadhead.
Yes, you can kill them with a rock (stone broadhead)
But if you want the most blood and the deepest penetration just do what the Doc. said.
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
From a medical standpoint, there is no question about which type of cut bleeds the longest and most freely; it's the one made by the thinnest, sharpest, smoothest edge. Why? Because the thinner, sharper and smoother the cutting edge the less of the tissue lining the blood vessel's inner wall is disrupted.
Disruption of the inner lining of the vessel wall initiates the release of the protein, prothrombin. Prothrombin is converted to the enzyme thrombin, through a reaction with the blood plasma. Thrombin catalyzes the conversion of fibrinogen to fibrin; the last step in coagulation of the blood. Coagulation stops or retards the rate of hemorrhaging; which is exactly what the bowhunter does not want to happen.
The greater the 'tearing effect' of the cutting edge, the more prothrombin released. The more prothrombin released, the more thrombin produced. The more thrombin there is, the more fibrinogen converted to fibrin. The more fibrin, the shorter the clotting time. The shorter the clotting time, the faster the rate of blood loss decreases. The faster the blood loss decreases, the less the total blood loss (per unit of time).
There isn't a highly significant difference when a major vessel is severed. Clotting alone isn't going to seal that off. However, there is credible medical evidence that if the shaft remains in the wound it contributes (applies) direct pressure on the wound. Furthermore, at least according to research by the Royal Academy of Veterinary Surgeons, if the arrow shaft remains in the wound AND the animal continues to move, pressure between shaft and wound is further increased. The combination of the two; direct pressure of the shaft on the wound and shortened clotting time; can result in hemorrhagic sealing, or near-sealing, of even substantial vessels; significantly retarding onset of physiologic shock and ensuing collapse. Sometimes these factors can even prevent the onset of shock and collapse.
Even with a pass-through hit, clotting time does, however, always become a very important factor when only small-diameter vessels have been severed; such as on a 'muscle-tissue only' hit, or a pure gut hit that misses the few major vessels. Recovering an animal after a 'muscle only' hit? Yes, it does sometimes happen, but requires (1) that the bleeding from the capillaries continue unabated and (2) careful and correct follow-up procedures are used.
I'll opt for an edge that's as sharp, smooth and thin as possible.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Sharp, Pseudo Sharp, Damn Sharp, Really Sharp, Really Really Sharp, Friday the 13th Sharp or what my mom uses to squash tomatoes with. If it splits a rib or comes unto contact with anything hard, Its not gonna be nearly as sharp as it was in the quiver. Thats why I think placement and deep penetration are far more important than anything else. 2, 3, 4, or more blades, doesnt matter what the cut in the hide looks like.
It`s cool that after so much debate, and hundreds or even thousands of years of combined experience, so many of us STILL find it almost impossible not to get into a discussion about broadheads.
Regardless of what kind of bow, what kind of arrow, or what kind of animal, it all comes down to the broadhead. We all want to choose what we feel will work the best.
Sometimes human nature causes us to overlook the most simple designs in things we use. I know I did for years... but I have learned.
Bowhunting forever.
I shot a doe last fall; a shot that hit way low; and only cut the back of the does leg. I kept on the blood trail; and did not let it lay down; to keep the blood flowing. Evenually ( after a mile of tracking- the sharp sharp broadhead cut worked. The doe showed no sign of being hit when it walked off.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj251/gundogsnbows2/2007%20doe/steve2puppiesbirth249.jpg) (http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj251/gundogsnbows2/2007%20doe/steve2puppiesbirth256.jpg)
I believe in really sharp broadheads !
so was it dead when you found it or did it just get to weak to keep going and you got another shot? either way great story !!!!
If I run a 4 blade through an animal with a razor sharp head....I'm going to get MORE blood on the ground than a razor sharp narrow 2 blade run through the animal in the same exact route.
Once you release the string, the arrow has a route that you can't change, and if you pass through that animal on that path, a 4 blade is going to leave more blood sign than a narrow two blade of the same sharpness.......more vessels cut, more blood will enter the body cavity, and the hole a 4 blade, or 3 blade, will create will let more blood escape the body cavity than the slit of a 2 blade...ESPECIALLY on hogs. I've seen it time and time again trailing other folk's two blade hits on deer and hogs.
The real question is do you have enough power to push a multi blade head completely through an animal???.......I'm confident I do, so I shoot multi blade heads most of the time on the game I hunt...and have no problem blowing through them like they are a sheet of paper unless the off shoulder or leg bone is hit....but its too late then anyway, and I either see them go down in sight, or hear them crash on a dead run.
If you don't feel you have enough power, then a 2 blade would be best for you regardless of the blood trail left....most important to pass completely through the animal for the best blood trail no matter how many blades....and than the edge is still sharp after the fact. Too narrow of a bevel and you'll likely roll the edge with any bone contact...even a rib going in, that will likely cause less blood loss internally to escape on the ground.
There's a whole lot more to consider on a deer than the shoulder, and there's no guarantee that you'll get through the shoulder with a 2 blade...but its pretty much a sure bet that if you goof toward the much larger area of the guts, a multi blade head will not only most likely pass clean through, it will cause more damage and trauma.
I err away from the shoulder on a deer for that very reason, as if you do pass through the shoulder, you very likely can miss the vitals, by hitting above and forward of the lungs, and have a long tracking job....Yep, I've done it in TX twice, as the deer there not only are crazy, they just don't duck, they duck and wheel making your perfect shot a not so perfect shot.
I consider shots on hogs much more closely as their vitals are much more forward.
Just take into consideration your quarry, and what it will take to pass clean through, and make sure you know how to put a PROPER edge on the head of your choice.
Best of luck to ya.
it actually died from a pulmonary embolism (IMHO).
I tracked it until dark; and it rolled down a slide rock area just above me; and stopped in some brush. I went back to my truck and pulled up as close to the spot as I could; and then went up with my flashlight to find it.
After a couple hours of looking; I returned to the truck; and realized it was laying dead in front of my truck; about ten feet from my bumper; but out of the headlight beam.
Apparently; after I had left to get the truck; it had fallen the rest of the way to the bottom of the ravine- right to the parking area and the beginning of a no-vehicle area.
The wound kept bleeding and I think eventually an air bubble(s) worked its way to the lungs.
If the blade (IMHO) had torn the wound; instead of slicing it; the wound would have clotted up; and stopped bleeding.
I sharpen with a file; preferably a mill bastard file; and I leave no burr left when I am done. I have shaved my neck with broadheads I have sharpened that way.
If a burr is small enough; it (IMHO) has the ~potential~ to come off as it enters the animal; and might thus: leave the rest of the cutting to a scary sharp ...burr-less.. cutting edge. Again in my humble opinion..
I really think keeping the sharpest edge possible is something we need to encourage every bowhunter to strive for. I believe you should shoot every broadhead/arrow set up; and then sharpen that sucker until its scary sharp.
All to often on television hunting shows; I see someone shoot into a foam target and then put the arrows into their quiver; and state "now I am ready to go hunting".
Even Fred Eichler did this on one recent show of his; although I believe with all my heart he sharpened those heads before he hunted with them; or replaced the blades. I trust that part was just edited out..... but it would be good to see it edited back in- as part of future shows !!!
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj251/gundogsnbows2/2007%20doe/steve2puppiesbirth259.jpg)
I had just watched the Masters of the Barebow Vol II DVD, and in it Fred Eichler made the comment that he does all of his practice shooting with broadheads (unless he's at a 3D shoot or something). I would guess he keeps a set broadheads for practice that stays completely separate from his hunting heads.
QuoteIf I were shaving my face, I certainly would take the smoothest edge I could find....
No doubt about it Joe! That razor needs to be smooth so it will "glide" effortlessly across your face.
A serrate shaving razor would be a terrible idea. It wouldn't cut hair worth a darn and would grab and dig into the skin at first touch and make you bleed all over the bathroom.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
A serrate shaving razor would be a terrible idea. It wouldn't cut hair worth a darn and would grab and dig into the skin at first touch and make you bleed all over the bathroom.
:readit: :goldtooth:
Well David, the good Doc and I don't agree on everything. Not sure if the "most stink" comment was a dig or not...but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was not. As I said, I use both...both have been very effective for me. If I ever lose an animal because my non-honed edge doesn't do the job (or vice versa), I'll switch to one method exclusively. Until then, I'll use the wide variety of sharpening techniques that are best for me. Good luck with what you choose to use and your results certainly speak to the validity of your conclusions...but don't degrade others equally proven methods and experiences.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
QuoteIf I were shaving my face, I certainly would take the smoothest edge I could find....
No doubt about it Joe! That razor needs to be smooth so it will "glide" effortlessly across your face.
A serrate shaving razor would be a terrible idea. It wouldn't cut hair worth a darn and would grab and dig into the skin at first touch and make you bleed all over the bathroom. [/b]
But Charlie according to the Doc. it would coagulate and stop bleeding before you leave the bathroom.
Where with that super duper super smooth razor honed edge you would still be bleeding until you drop from the massive blood loss :biglaugh:
In my humble some times smelly opinion.