Trad Gang

Someone had a post which mentioned that their local school had just been repainted with a Teflon paint; so that graffiti could be easily removed from the walls; and wondering if it would make a 'slick' arrow finish. I can't remember what thread it was on, and couldn't locate it again.

I'd never heard of Teflon paint, but did a Google search and, sure enough, there it is! Seems it was originally developed to help protect tiles on the space shuttle; to reduce friction on the tile's adhesive during re-entry. It's now being used on the hulls of high-performance race boats, of all sorts. It's also being used as a premium auto finish, and it seems a few auto dealers are already offering it as an optional 'add on'.

There may well be some interesting possibilities for arrow finishes here. The cost looks fairly high, but it's not any more costly than the 5 coat finish mixture I've been using on my wood shafts.

My 'test plate' is pretty full at the moment, but I though I'd pass this along to whomever was asking about the Teflon paint. It would be great if someone on TG wanted to do a bit of experimenting (Hint, Hint). Even a 'subjective impress' of the slickness of the Teflon paint, when coated with fresh blood, would be interesting. Some actual shots into tissues would be even more interesting. The Teflon coated BH's certainly show an advantage in soft tissue penetration.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Cool!

Interlux appears to be a supplier along with a couple of two part epoxy teflon paints as well.
I will start by finding some Teflon paints in the next day or two; couple of different ones, and dip some shafting in the stuff, and report back as soon as I have some results.

There is also a black graphite paint that has been on the market for years.  Used in the back of dump trucks, grain haulers etc.  Anywhere you don't want something to stick to the side.  Buy it at farm supplies I believe.  We have used it for special applications at work.  May be much cheaper but can't vouch for durability from wearing off in targets etc.    :thumbsup:

Ed:

'Twas I in my thread about wood shafting in no-nonsense trad seasons. I read about Idaho's "new" season in a Dec/Jan 2002 issue of Traditional Bowhunter. Idaho created entirely new seasons (archery and ML) where there had been no hunting. Among archers' restrictions identified: no sights; no compound bows; arrow shafts must be wood; broadheads must be barbless. You get the idea.

I know essentially nothing about wood arrows except what you've written. Since apparently hickory is your preferred easily attainable shaft wood, and I anticipate a laminated wood shaft to be significantly more dimensionally stable than single-layer shafting, I queried a laminated wood fabricator whether a laminated hickory (at least 17 plies per inch) of approximate shaft thickness was available. If not, I also asked for a price for a small run of sheeting, and 12-foot [nominal] dowel.

One little detail I know nothing about that you may. To improve weight distribution of a tapered wood shaft while maintaining its rigidity, has anyone considered fluting the rear portion (don't have a clue how much length) of a shaft, as one flutes a benchrest rifle barrel?

And to really venture into the Twighlight Zone -- hey we're dealing with wood, so cost would not be an outrage -- were fluting helixed to match where fletching would be affixed, would this allow the shaft itself to assist fletching in stabilizing arrow's flight?

wonder how it would take to flexing?

naphtali,
One way I've heard of decreasing the weight in the rear of a shaft is to bore a hole about 8 inches into the end essentially making it hollow.

That teflon paint sounds interesting! Heck, I could paint my broadheads also  :) . Slickest finish I've used is polyurethane over parafin wax.

Naphtali, you might want to look into the cane or bamboo shafts. Or maybe some of the hardwood shoots. Not an easy road to hole if you're just starting the learning process but IMO these types of natural materials will more then meet your needs.

Darn, wish they still made that lead wool  :( ! ART B

I prepped a wood shaft last night with a marine sealer and applied a coat of paint containing teflon to it today. Won't be completely dry till tomorrow night, we will see what it feels like.
The shiniest surface is not the slickest-in fact shiny creates drag. Sailboat racers wet sand hulls with 400 grit which supposedly has the least drag--yeah I know it isn't an animal!

Bjorn,

Looking forward to hearing about the results. I just keep feeling that there's a finish out there that would be simple to apply, and at least as low-friction (in the presence of blood) as the very pricey and labor intensive five coat finish I've been using.

Lance,

Yes, just as with a laminated rifle stock, the laminated wood shafts tend to be a bit more stable. I've never heard of anyone fluting a wood shaft. That could be interesting to try. The only fluted shafts I know of were the very thin wall aluminums that Easton had on the market for a while. Supposedly, the flutes increased rigidity and (it was claimed) improved the air flow along the shaft.

Dave's idea about the hollowed shaft rear is similar to some primative three part shafts; a cane rear shaft, solid mid-shaft and a detachable fore shaft. Such arrows are sometimes used by the Bushmen. The foreshaft (poisoned) remains in the animal. I always figured the 2 part rear shaft was a result of making best use of the materials at hand, in an environment where ideal construction materials weren't always available, and re-using the parts of any broken shafts as long as possible was almost a necessity.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Dr.Ashby, I dipped 3 shafts in the teflon paint and matched them up with 'regular' shafts of exact weight, diameter, and taper.
The Teflon paint is slow to dry, so they will sit for a couple of days........I don't have any dead animals hanging around; what do you suggest I shoot them into?

Bjorn, there's not much that replicates blood-suffused fresh tissues, however, here are a couple of 'initial test' ideas.

Try one of the arrows into a new dense foam target (or a part of a target that's not full of holes. use it side by side with one having the finish you normally use. Don't pay as much attention to the penetration as you do to the (subjective) force required to extract the arrows from the foam.

Next test doesn't require an arrow. Take a scrap of board and paint a part of it with the Teflon paint and part with your normal finish; leaving a third part unfinished. Whenever you DO have some fresh blood (which is not all that uncommon around MY workshop) drip a few drops onto each surface, then evaluate how 'slick' each feels with the blood on it.

Those two test usually give some subjective idea of 'slickness' of the finish. Next step is to wait until hunting season and do a few test shots into a freshly downed animal with arrows with and without the finish.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Bjorn, What's the spine and length on those arrows? I've about gotten over my "rest period" and I'm ready to get back to piggy sticking. I'd be glad to field test one or two on some pigs.

Doc, Good to see your still at it. Mad scientist!  :saywhat:    :bigsmyl:  

You still state-side? Debbie cleaned your bedroom yesterday.  :D

Well now what kinda glue might we be using ya spose?

Curtis,these were not made up to any particular spec. I grabbed some shafts that were on the bench at the time; they are 28.5 BOP and 60-65#, they weigh a bit over 400 grains without points.
I can make up others if these won't work for you.
Thanks for stepping up!

Brownells which is a gun parts catalog sells a Teflon Moly bake on paint.  Moly coating is a big deal for handloaders and competition shooters to use on there bullets.  Moly coated bullets reduce friction, barrel fowling, and chamber pressures. I've used the Teflon Moly paint several times on firearms, you heat the item, spray it, then bake it at 180 degrees for an hour or depending on the size of the part.  Once it's baked, it's TOUGH.  I wonder if this is what Eclipse uses on their heads?  I would imagine that it would work well on broadheads as long as you didn't build up real thick.

Dr Ashby,
There is a substance used here in Florida by airboat owners to make their aluminum and fiberglass hulls "ultra-slick" the product is called "frog spit". It is a paint or sprayed on product.
There is an airboat dealer not far from my home, I'll go by and check and see if I can get a small sample to try on both shafts and broadheads.
John

David,

It would be interesting to know if that is the same, or similar, to the Teflon coat Eclipse is using on their BH's. Does it come out that same grey color as the Eclipse? I've used the early moly bullet coatings, but they were not a bake-on finish, and didn't hold up well.

Bjorn,

Yes, Curtis would be a great tester for them. He's continually generating a "blood-suffused environment", just right for testing!

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Brownells makes it in several different colors, the closest to the Eclipse would be their stainless paint, but they also make it in dark grey, black, OD green and I believe a tan.  As I did, the early Moly coatings where a powder that coating on in the brass tumbler. I use nothing but baked on moly bullets now. I unfortuantly do not have any of this paint left to try it with.  each can is about $20 but I'm sure would be enough to do several dozen broadheads.  I'll see if I can get the link to the paint.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1145&title=TEFLON/MOLY%20OVEN%20CURE,%20GUN%20FINISH  

here's the whole link to the paint. Looks like they now have 8 different colors and a tell all on how it works.  Looks like the price went up a bit since the last time I bought it.

Thanks, David. I think I'll send a can of that to Curtis to try out. I already have more test planned for this year's testing than I'm likley to get done.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Okay, one can ordered and on its way to Curtis. We'll see how it works! If it does, it will be great.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

I wasn't going to post anything on this until later in the week but it seems to fit here.  I'm a powder coater and last week I spoke with one of my powder rep's from DuPont (makers of Teflon) about coating broadheads.  He checked with the Teflon devision and they are sending a sample they suggest to use for coating broadheads.  DuPont has at least 5 basic types of Teflon and the one they are sending is applied much the same way as powder coatings.  I'll be happy to coat a few heads for others willing to test it out. Mark

There is also spray lubricant with Teflon on the market.. We have used it at work, although I don't think we have any right now.. It stuck pretty good, but would flake off after a while..
I'll check to see if I can be more specific.

Bjorn, You couldn't have chosen a better shaft for me. Perfect except for being a half inch longer than my standard arrow. Even the spine and weight are good. If ya want to send one or two I'll give you my address. I'd love to test them!

Thanks Doc for the teflon. I'll give it a solid testing. I've been needing to build some new arrows anyway. After this last couple of months my stuff is looking pretty poor.    

Curtis Kellar
1573 Ckodre Rd
Runge, Texas 78151 (no mis-spellings)

I am also curious of the type of glue you will using.

Mark,

It will be interesting to see how the Teflon coating they recommend works out. I know a couple more BH makers are looking at the possibility of Teflon finishes, but it would be good if there was a way it could be added onto anyone's BH of choice.

Paul,

That's a thought that had occurred to me, but figured one could always just use an enamel crown dip and apply the Teflon paint from the area of fletching forward. However, with the enormous number of speciality adhesives available today, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't one that would work. Of course, the paint can be sanded off the point taper, so no problem there.

Ed
EGMM Family of the Bow

Wilton Hamilton 733 So.31st St.South Bend Ind.46413...Filed Aug.19th 1974 Ser.No.495 Terms of patent 14 years ist.Cl.D22-03 United States Patent Des.236,465 Patented Aug.26 1975..Hamiltons broadheads and arrows were both coated with teflon.But there is very little research or testing done with the Hamiltons...I will try and post a pic....bowdoc

dON,

A fascinating bit of archary history. I've never heard of them. Little is new in archery/bowhunting. I think we're just rediscovering a lot of things that escaped man's 'corporate memory' through the years. Hopefully, we'll have the information better recorded this time around!

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Hey Doc,here's Hamiltons pat.app.This one does not mention about the teflon coating.I will try and find the actul add to post.Also note the tiny bleeder blade they have.And as you mentioned it seemed odd most guy's did not keep notes of thier testings.I've only talked with one person who arrowed a small whitetail doe with a Hamilton broadhead and arrow..I asked him if he thought the teflon coating made any difference.He said he only shot about 8-10 yards with a 60# recurve from a tree stand(pass thru).So he really could not help much with the info I was looking for at the time.I really never did find any info on testing them.But I did think it was a good idea....bowdoc  (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/th001.jpg)

Great stuff, Don. I find it fascinating that someone was already tinkering with Teflon on BH's and shafts way back when Teflon was just getting common on pots and pans!

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Curtis, the paint I used is a bear to work with-red paint all over the shop. It sticks to everything except my arrow shafting! LOL!!
The paint creeps and wrinkles even when 'dry'.
I probably should have used their primer.
There is only one good one-and that will be in the mail to you today.

Bjorn, well, that's ONE new lesson learned already! How 'tough' does the finish seem to be? Figure you'll find that out trying to get it off everything!  :biglaugh:  

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

You can get the Teflon spray lube from McMaster Carr or MSC on line, about $12.00 a can. Certainly sticks well enough to protect your broadhead and lube the  shaft for a season. Dries white, so you can be like Ted.. Quiet honestly I doubt you find a glue to stick to it.

Today I was able to compare blood on the Teflon paint and regular arrow dip.
The Teflon surface was way more slippery and became lubricated immediately-a very noticeable difference.
Additionally I shot identical arrows into a foam target for broadheads and field tips. There was no difference in extracting the arrows.
I suspect they were 'air locked' into the target and any coefficient of friction would be negated.
Later, in a hay bale the Teflon did appear to come out cleaner but that was inconclusive.
The paint is very soft and even after a few days can still be dented with a finger nail. We need to try different types. A clear finish would be ideal.
Let's see how Curtis makes out on the real thing.

Doc & Curtis,

Moly (molybdendum sulphate) has been used for years to reduce friction on projectiles. It can be purchased in it's purest form as a powder which is then generally applied to bullets by means of tumbling them in commercial tumbler with minute quantity of moly powder. This application works for bullets that see little wear and tear ie: bullet box to chamber and does not work good for hunting rounds that are carried around and rechambered frquently as the powder coat wears off easily. Hence the spray on versions that are now available such as product from Brownell's (moly mixed with a bonding agent - not pure moly). A number of the major bullet manufacturer's have now started mixing their own form of moly mixed with a bonding agent which is baked on the give better wearing finish. Moly does indeed provide a better lubricity than teflon but in it's pure form is not as nice to work with. Moly also adhears better (at high temp) and withstands higher temps better than teflon, not really an issue with arrows and broadheads. Little is known as to the toxicity of molybdendum sulphate but general concensus is in small doses it should pose no issues to humans. Good luck! If you really want good penetration why not fill the shaft with FFG and put a small rifle primer inside the insert and screw the broadhead in very very carefully!

Bjorn,

The slickness in blood sounds good. The 'softness' may pose a problem. I did note that there is a coating that is added over the Teflon paint on boat bottoms.

David,

I've tried some of the straight moly products in the past. Durability was the big problem. The spray I ordered from Brownell's is the moly-Teflon bake-on you're talking about. It should arrive tomorrow.

John, What is the chemical compound in "Ultra-Slick"?

There's no doubt that a finish that lowers the frictional coefficient in the presence of blood is going to give a penetration boost in soft tissues.  If we can find one that's easy to use and durable, then there's no real reason not to avail ourselves of that bit of penetration gain.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Interesting thread, just wondering though if anyone has tried rain-x on their arrow shafts? I use it on my 3-d arrows makes a difference in foam, seems like it would help on bloody tissue...

You might try charring shafts' ODs or boning them (a toothbrush handle is okay for the job). Both actions will improve surface hardening. Having a harder basis material on which to affix slick surface material may enhance properties of surface material applied.

Could be, Lance. Wonder if it would take better on the dense woods; or those compressed?

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Boning is a barnyard way of densifying (to use an investment casting term) basis material. Compressing wood -- Forgewood®?? -- achieves similar result in a controlled fashion. Would Forgewood® benefit from boning? Couldn't hurt, and probably would benefit from additional surface hardening.

Charring is a method I identified when editing a manuscript. Apparently, Special Forces training includes creating weapons/tools from whatever materials are available. This was a method described as hardening a jury-rigged spear point.

Will these processes be easier to apply to denser woods? Since I believe a harder wood shaft surface is a better one, difficulty would not be important. Neither of these processes is difficult or risky.

Will a denser wood accept these processes more easily or effectively? No shaft wood is really hard. All have relatively open/porus surfaces until finished. I doubt there would be a problem surface hardening, or applying a slick-finish surface, to any shaft wood. . . .

Of course, I write in the abstract. I have not created a single wood-shafted arrow. I have done both surface-hardening processes for other purposes, though.

Lance, yes, and it's still widely used by 'primative' (?) folk around the world to fire-harden wooden 'cutting weapons'.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

OK, I recieved the arrow from Bjorn today along with the can of teflon that you ordered Doc.

My innitial impression) The arrow is going to penetrate very well. I say this because the finish is very slick and very smooth. The downfall of the finish on the arrow is that it is still soft. I can scratch the finish with a fingernail. I'd assume this is the result of not hardening it by baking. I plan to try and stick this arrow through a pig this weekend if I can find some time. I have a hunt starting tomorrow. Customers come first!

Teflon from Doc) I pulled out the can and thumbed through the directions. I know, I should know by now to just throw the damn directions out before undertaking any Ashby projects. LOL!

Problem I see here is that this teflon is requiring a bake time of 15-20 minutes at 350 degrees. I'm afraid wood may combust before the teflon hardens. I'm going to make a few attempts on some broken wood shafts to see what happens. I can tell you guys already that my wife is not going to be happy about me using the oven again for more archery experiments. Awww, I guess I'll just tell her the good Doc said it was alright. I always take a back seat to Ashby!  :goldtooth:  

So, should I go ahead and finish out Bjorns arrow with a trusty Griz 190? Better see if this shaft is going to fly with a machette up front. CK

Hey Curtis, my thought was that the spray paint would work well on the heads but not shafts unless they were aluminum.
350 degrees should be under the flash point of pretty near anything...........but in the heating process there will be air in the oven that is way over 350 and some charring will occurr.
It will be exciting to hear about the real live or real dead testing on your hunt!!
It is possible that the surface is soft because the primer I used is water based and the Teflon paint has dizzolved it.
I will look at the other samples when I get home in a few hours.

Glad to hear that the paint finish feels slick. The 'overcoating' made for the Teflon paint might be worth a look.

I'm interested in how the spray might work on a BH. However, 350 Degrees ... might have to look at the effect on steel tempering. I think you'll need to cool any BH's quickly after them come out of the oven.

ALL YOU STEEL WORKERS OUT THERE ... what should we do here? Is 350 degrees going to affect the temper? What's the best course of action to preserve the metal's hardness?

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

I'm thinking I'll go wider than the Griz. I think I'll teflon a few Magnus 1's and maybe a Sasquatch. I'm pretty sure we'll be looking at passthroughs on anything but the biggest of big pigs. Better not hex myself by saying anything more. I'll get to work now. CK

Oh, one thing on the bake on teflon, make SURE the wife is out of the house before you do it. It smells the house up and will send you to the dog house in a hurry.  Been there , done that.

Curtis, and Dr. Ashby; when the proper primer is used the Teflon paint is rock hard. I have another shaft here that bears that out.
If Curtis reports back that the Teflon paint is superior to conventional surfaces I will get some of the proper primer, cleaning fluids, and Teflon paint and dip a dozen or more shafts for further testing.
I have enough idle dip tubes and stuff to do that.
Some of the knife guys will know about baking metals and tempering, I suspect that 350 is low.

Alright, we're baked!

I decided on two Magnus 1's and one of my modified El Grande's. I started by using a spray-on paint stripper. I tend to paint all my broadheads white on one side and I wanted the surfaces clean and paint-free for the teflon.

I stripped the heads and then acetone'd them. Next came one solid coating of teflon per side. The teflon went on thick enough that I felt it was suffecient without a second coat. I let them dry for 30 minutes per the instructions(pesky things) and then placed in a toasted oven at approximately 350 degrees for 20 minutes.

Once everything was complete I opened the oven and I quick quenched one Magnus 1 and the Griz. in cool tap water. I left one Magnus to slow cool as per the instructions. I should know once I lay a file on them if the temper has been changed to any measurable degree. Pure science!  :p   HeeHeee!

I can tell you right now that this finish is hands down the best finish I've seen. It's very similar to the Eclipse but yet different. It's very cool! If all works like I think it will I'll be looking for some white teflon soon. More to come.   :thumbsup:  CK

If you are doing a lot of experimenting where you are needing to bake the heads, why not pick up a simple toaster oven?  Of course you couldn't put an arrow in the toaster oven, but you could sure do a lot of heads. (You could cook out in the shop, too)

I would suggest that no matter if you use the house oven or something else, it would be cheap insurance to get an oven thermometer, preferrably one with that has the readout that is outside the oven.  my family has had one and every oven I've ever had was off as to temps. I would think that an even, correct temp would insure a better quality.

BTw, you probably could pick up a good used oven cheap, too.

Most knives are baked for about one hour in a 390 to 400 degree oven.  But each steel is different.  Those temperatures and times are for saw blades and lawnmower blades (we knifemakers are scrounging scoundrels). and would probably be appropriate for broadheads.  Quenching may create additional hardness, the knives are being baked to temper (remove some hardness) them.  Tippit will better fill you in.

-Brett

You will not significantly effect temper on any steel at temps below 500F even if the bake is for several hours (you can Stress Relieve steel at lower temps but dimensions and temper won't change appreciably). Wood combusts at over 400F.(451F for paper -unprocesed wood might vary a little due to volatiles)

I never really worried about the Bhead as its not very poruse....but I have the arrow shaft, and have always kept a coat of black magic tire wet on my woodies for sure, and carbons if I have time.

Any study on that Doc?

I have to disagree with Tree Man.
Does anyone know what steel they use in the heads?  Playing around with a few of them I'm guessing 1050 or some other medium carbon steel (at most for the Grizzlies).
Tempering at 400 would give you a 52 Rc, which is above some of the grizzlies and below some of the others.  If the steel isn't quite 1050 putting it at 350 has the potential to soften it below what it's supplied as.
I'll put a Magnus II in the oven tonight and see if it affects it.  That's all I have here now, except for a few Tuskers I want to play with - single bevel of course   :)

Interested to hear your results Curtis...

Results from the first hunt are in. As expected, penetration was not an issue. Marksmanship certainly was. I managed a solid stalk to within 7 yards this morning. My body angle was somewhat distorted by a hasty set-up and my first shot was a miss.  :scared:   That's right, I MISSED at a grand total of 7 yards. I felt some interference with my jacket sleeve upon release so there may have been more than just a simple miss.    

As so ofter happens, the pigs split two directions and I was able to grunt one for a second shot. The shot was again lacking in placement.  :rolleyes:    :rolleyes:    :rolleyes:  I did what I see so many guys do and I hit way high. Also as expected, the arrow was right there where it had gone through the hog. The second arrow was an arrow dynamics waxed with car wax and sporting an El Grande with teflon. No doubt an effective combo between the car waxed shaft and the teflon head. Now all we need is a shooter!

I managed to see the pig again an hour later. I did feel that the pig would recover but went and trailed him anyway. I bumped him from his bed about 300 yards from the shot. He looked just fine and could easily have outrun a gazelle. Two more days till the hunt ends. I'll try again this evening except I'm changing bows. I'm going with my Sunbear longbow. CK

Hang in there Curtis. It'll come together. Look forward to pics!  :thumbsup:

Looks like I saved the mailman another severe beatin'.  :thumbsup:  

Just upholding the title..."slowest bowyer west of the Mississippi."  ;)

Okay, this got me thinking a little... Anyone ever try treating their arrows with Rain-X?  If you have ever used this on your windshield, you've seen how the water rolls right off. Might have some potential as a penetration enhancer on soft tissue.

Sorry I've been so silent but I've been in hunting camp guiding a terminal cancer patient and his Grandson for their first two hogs. They've succeeded!

Unfortunate for this study, I've been bowless for numerous days. Doc Ashby surprised us by stopping by hunting camp on his way back east after seeing OL out in Roswell. I did get to hunt with OL's world record holding flight bow. Yowzer! What an absolute screamer of a bow!

Doc and I sat at the round table last night and discussed so many things. Docs ability to disect the world of archery and come up with so many innovations is simply amazing. Doc headed east this morning and left me with a pile of ideas and info that will keep me working for quite some time. The one thing he showed me about foc and tuning has given me penetration on solid foam exceeding my prior penetration by a minimum of about 70%. I absolutely stood with my mouth open as I saw an AD Trad penetrate 3/4 of the length of the arrow through a solid block of foam. He simply said that if we had more time he'd have me shooting through the entire block with no problem. Remember, my bows are under 55#. I was actually shooting 47# when I got the penetration I speak of.

Here's a pic of the broadhead and arrow shaft coated in teflon.
 (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/ck/HPIM0246.JPG)
The arrow is not at all extreem in foc but I'll still try and find an unsuspecting test dummy in the next few weeks. I'll then remove the broadhead and try it under the tuning criteria that Doc has now shared with me. The most fascinating of all we talked about was the innovations Doc is getting from OL's flight shooting and then reapplying to the hunting arrow. Reeeeealy interesting stuff!!!! Using OL's engineering(actual rocket science) and Docs practical hunting experience I do believe we will be seeing some real extensive changes in the historic thought processes of archery in the very near future. I find myself getting very excited about a side of archery that I felt had already been explored. Boy have I ever been wrong!!!! Doc feels he will be seeing very light bows shooting completely through very heavy bone in the near future. I now believe this is very possible!!!! I have seen with my own eyes what lies ahead.

Stay tuned! We're sure to make a hole in something soon. CK

CK, the good Doc is something else isn't he!  :)  I always enjoy the visits and the BS/brainstorming!  :)  Good stuff you guys are doing here and I have no doubts many pardigms will shift over time. Keep it up......O.L.

You betcha he's something! I tell ya what else, what I've been told about your new feather designs, arrows, and the deliberate disruption of air with ---- material(flight secrets I'm sure) had me grinning ear to ear. I can't wait to try some of what you are doing with some of what Doc is doing and utilizing it with light weight hunting bows. I'm really excited!

Oh, Thanks for the opportunity to shoot your record setting bow. Doc actually said he'd like to see something shot with it. Sorry but one evening didn't get it done. I did shoot about two dozen screamin arrows out of it. What a bow! Keep up the innovative work Sir. I can't wait to apply it in hunting.  :thumbsup:   CK

Guys,
     Since Bob and I heard Curtis' story in camp we both are wondering if the layer of teflon will mess with the arrow's spine?

  If so, would this negate any benifits attributed to the teflon?

                                 Lin

Huh? I have no idea what Curtis and OL are talking about? I make these trips to seek out what new Extra-Terrestrial technology OL has mined from the Roswell crash site since my last visit. I KNOW this HAS to be where he comes up with all this incredible stuff. Heck, I didn't even believe in flying saucers before I met OL!

After all that mind-blowing information from my personal Guru of the incomprehensible, I need to stop by Curtis' place to again get in touch with what's happening at ground-zero of the North American hunting world. The two just mesh together so well - like returning to earth after a stint into the Twilight Zone. (Okay, what I REALLY stop by Curtis' for is Debbie's out-of-this-world cheese cake, but I don't want him to know that ... and it does make me wonder if Debbie got that recipe from an ET crash site too?)

I was impressed with the results Curtis had with the 'spray and bake' Teflon coating on the BH's. It does appear to be much the same as that on the Eclipse broadheads. I think this one may be a keeper bit of technique/technology. If it test out as well as the coating on the Eclipse, it should mean a 14% increase in soft tissue penetration on an Eclipse-like profiled BH - and possibly a lot more on BH's with higher mechanical advantage. Any possible change in metal hardness from the baking still needs to be investigated too. I think Curtis will be able to get a good idea about that when he's sharpening them, and from the results he gets on heavy bone impacts.

Bjorn, the Teflon paint finish on that first shaft is too soft to be useful, and I'm really glad to hear that you got a harder finish on the next try. Yes, I think Curtis needs a sample of the harder-finish one for testing. The 'slick' quality of the first one's finish when blood coated is very favorable though. It's looking like you may have found a penetration-enhancing shaft finish that MIGHT be highly useful, especially for those using lower draw-weight bows and those after the larger animals. I wonder if that slick Teflon finish is going to add any arrow speed, by reducing friction between shaft and the arrow-shelf?

All in all, this Teflon finish stuff looks like something well worth pursuing.

OL, I've just bare-shafted the bow to see what shaft I'll need with my normal hunting point setup. At about 64# draw and 778 grains mass, it shoots a BUNCH flatter than my 82# straight-end longbow. Can't chronograph it until I get back to Oz. However, it expands my 'point straight at the target' range by several yards! Might make getting old a tad bit easier!

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Did we ever get any answers on Teflon finish.

Just wondering

Haven't read all the posts in this thread Doc, but I sure injoyed your article in the lastest TBM.  You ARE the Man  :wavey:    :thumbsup:  ...Van

Van.  thanks for bringing this one back up.  I was gone for a while.  there was an earlier post, around the same time frame where everybody was involved in testing eFOC and feather size and shape, and a bunch of stuff.  Then I missed the rest of it.  I can't seem to find it now.  Anybody remember the title ?
ChuckC

Click the search feature, and type in the word extreme and click the subject box then the search button.

Funny, I wanted to post up and ask if anyone had refinished their older used broadheads with a Teflon paint. I have lots of used broadheads from my Dad; most every brand and style, of which I prefer the Eclipse models he took to Tanzania. Some need paint after cleaning them up a bit as they sat awhile in his shop. My thought was to recoat all of the worn finishes with teflon paint. Now I need some spray paint since y'all did the research!

Thanks for bringing this thread up.  Good stuff.  I'm going to have to go find the efoc thread now...

Thank you Terry
ChuckC

Has anyone tried a moly spray used to treat bullets in reloading? (not trad). Used to increase bullet velocity and aid in cleaning, but is basically a "slick" spray, pretty tough too. Might work as teflon?

J

Sorry to kinda stray from trad, but thought it was appropriate here.