Had a beautiful day here in south-central MO today, and I shot probably 5 hours total, in two sessions. Anyway, I purchased a Glendel Buck a while back, and have been pounding the snot out of it. Because of the internal, supporting structure of the deer, the so-called "sweet" spot, low behind the front shoulder isn't the best place to aim on this particular 3-D... (Hard on arrows!) When I first got it, I drew a little black dot in the center of the insert area to focus on. It IS a target, after all...
What does this have to do with the post title you ask? Well, here you go... I was shooting decent today, but when I missed, it got me to thinking about deer physiology and shot placement. It makes sense to me, to take the highest percentage shot possible on live game. For me, this translates to aiming at the center of the lung area. A little low, you still have lung, and maybe heart. A little high, and you have lung/spine. Please disregard windage errors for this discussion. Also, please refrain from the debate over a supposed "void" between the lungs and spine. That dog won't hunt, IMHO...
So, anyway, I started thinking about Deers I have Known. I know a lung shot deer will often run a while, but then again, I've never known a heart shot deer not to run. The gun killed deer that I've seen tip right over, excluding spine shots, were generally mid to high lung hits. Now I know that bullets rely on shock, as well as hemorrhage, but I wonder if mid to high lung shots (with arrows) on deer would be as or more effective, due to the fact that gravity works in our favor with the mechanism of injury.
My point is not to be macabre, but let's face it, when we hunt, we go afield with the intention of killing something -- if conditions, luck, and skill are with us. And, it is the goal of every well-intentioned hunter to kill as humanely and as quickly as possible.
If you shoot a deer in the mid/high lung area, it bleeds into the lungs, as well as the external bleeding we rely on to help us locate a downed animal. The same is true of a low lung hit, but it seems to me that if the hit is higher, it might accelerate the collapse and filling of the lung with blood.
That's a lot of typing and untested theory for a simple question, but I found myself commiserating with the keyboard in a fashion most profound. :rolleyes:
What are your thoughts?
I try for a high heart shots. I really like a double lung shot, but always try to cut the Heart.
I will discuss both what I have experienced and what I believe to be the explanation for it. In my experience, most of the deer shot low (heart/lung or double lung) leave a better blood trail and expire more quickly than those shot higher up, even if double lunged. I believe the reason for these findings to be related to the following. As far as the blood trail goes you don't have to wait for the blood cavity to fill up as much, although in the higher up shots you still get a blood trail from peripheral vessels. Also, a double lung shot lower in the lungs should produce more bleeding, all things being equal (broadhead size, etc..), because the lower lungs actually have more blood flow ordinarily than the upper lung fields. That's just physiology. Now certainly a higher up hit can hit a major vessel, like the aorta and do incredible damage and put the deer down quickly, but overall in my experience lower hits do a better job. That being said I like to hedge my bets somewhat, like you, and typically aim for what I believe to be the top of the heart.
Sal, you beat me to it.
I shoot treesharks so I can cut the heart and get a high lung hit at the same time. :bigsmyl:
Thanks, Patrick. That makes a lot of sense, although I'm not conversant on the phsyiology of a low hit producing more bleeding based on the "lower lungs having more blood flow than the upper fields".
One thing I did fail to account for in my original question, is the deer's uncanny ability to 'drop at the shot'. I'd wager that more deer have been missed high, than low, when the shot is placed approximately correct for the aiming point.
James: Duly noted on the Treesharks... :bigsmyl:
I know it is crazy but I like crowding the shoulder and due to the heights I hunt from I like a bit above mid high shots with a low exit hole. I find if ya crowd the shoulder or even hit it, about 8"s of penetration is a double lunged deer and he won't go far even if I sacrifice a blood trial sometimes. Shawn
This is why I like the double lung / Heart shot
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/mysticguido/hunting/000_0028.jpg)
There is an short article in the new TBM about this subject. "Tips from the Old Timer".
He likes 'em low (me too).
I would say any double lung or heart shot will result in a dead deer in a short distance, but here is the entrance and exit pictures from a doe I shot a few years ago. This shot resulted in the quickest kill I've every seen with a bow the shot was 20 yards from a tree stand, the deer took one jump forward and tipped over, probally only lasted 10 to 15 seconds. The arrow entered high in one lung, cut the ateries off the top of the heart, and exited low and forward in the second lung. 66" brackenbury ledgend II 73 lbs @32" easton 2219 w/ 145 grn magnus 2 blade
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/surveyorJT/2004doe-entrance2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/surveyorJT/2004doe-exit2.jpg)
It was a while back, but one of the things that really started me thinking about this was watching this vid:
http://www.buffsblackwidow.com/videos/h&s001.wmv
I know I posed the question about deer, but there is no doubt, that pig was hit high, and it obviously didn't hit the spine.
BTW, nothing but admiration for Marty. Best "amatuer" videographer I've ever seen!
I haven't hunted off the ground since about 73-74. My shortest blood trails have been on the deer that I centerpunched the heart. 6-7 deer and the longest recovery was less than 30 yards. On a double-lunger I would guess that most went 40-60 yards with a long of about 80 yards. Hap
My goal is to put the exit hole as low and tight to the shoulder as possible. Point of aim changes depending on distance, angle and orientation of the animal, bu the goal stays the same.
I think we tend to aim too far back. Aiming just ABOVE that thing most call the shoulder gives the most room for error and actually places the broadhead in a better location for full lung (or even high heart) entry.
ChuckC
Without a dought a low lung/heart shot will kill much quicker than a mid/high lung shot. Real quick kills (i.e. within a couple seconds) are a result of massive blood loss not lung failure. What you have to remember is 100% of the blood in the body travels through the heart and the lungs! The blood travels through the lungs in vessels that look like a tree, large trunk size vessels down at the heart and smaller and smaller vessels as you go up and back in the lungs. If you take out the lungs low near the heart the heart will pump out blood verry quickly, PB will drop and the deer will go down in seconds. If you take out the heart it will take a little longer for the deer to go down because the heart is not pumping. A high double lung or single lung can take minutes or hours. I like my shots 1/3 up tight to the front leg. Ideal shot would quarter forword just enough to hit offside leg.
Steve
>> think we tend to aim too far back<<
Chuck C: that was exactly the message of the TBM article and he blames it on the location of scoring rings on most 3D targets.
i like a the shot to be low and forward braking the the shoulder if i can.
I like to crowd the shoulder myself. Point of aim depends on way too many variables. Is the deer broadside, quartering? Treestand? Ground blind? Etc. You want an arrow in the sweet spot, you must "draw that line" through the animal. Yes I do wait for broadside almost every time.
The deer that went down the quickest for me was one that I hit broadside, from a stand, about four inches directly above the "elbow". It ran maybe twenty yards, and was dead before I even finished my happy dance. Both lungs and a nice slice through the heart/arteries. Blood was unreal. Didnt need the trail though, as he went down well within sight.
I have always thought that 3d made us aim too far back...IMO.
In my experience, I'd rather hit both lungs as low as possible without hitting the heart. Every deer I've ever shot in the heart, with rifle or bow, ran like a nest of hornets alighted on its a**! Of course, they were very dead, but they ran quite a bit farther than I would have previously thought possible. Hit through both lungs, they didn't go nearly as far. Of course, heart shot deer aren't hard to track! The high lung/shoulder hit with a rifle often drops them due to peripheral shock to the spinal cord, but you don't get that effect with an arrow, so I avoid it; also, as previously mentioned, deer duck.
Assuming the deer is broadside, I like to use the deer's elbow as reference and aim just behind it. Many will mistake this as the shoulder but shoulder blade is higher and further forward. This will result in a low heart/lung hit and allows some room for error if the deer drops at the shot.
Lower lung hits result in easy to follow blood trails. One must almost miss the deer to hit TOO low and if this occurs, it is rarely a fatal hit. On the flip side, a high hit may result in a fatal hit with a hard to follow blood trail which = poor recovery rate.
Here are some anatomy pics. The one "in the shoulder" was shot off the ground and dropped in its tracks. After the autopsy you will see it is dead on the spine.
The other carcass with masking tape and measurements is the actual anatomy of a 220# FIELD dressed buck. The top dark line is the actual location of the spine. Directly at the shoulder- anything above half down will go OVER the spine. The spine then sweeps back up. I think there are many so called "high lung" hits from tree stands that are never recovered- because they are not lung but over the spine.
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/anatomyspinehit-1.jpg)
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/webshotbroadside2.jpg)
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/broadsidedimensions.jpg)
Here is the other with measurements I was speaking about above. Note the line of the spine.
Depends on which way you think the deer will run when shot. If you think he will run towards the vehicle, then shoot him in the heart! :) I've always worried that a high lung shot deer has a chance of getting away from me. I don't worry about those shot lower.
KSDan - Great pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve
The only thing that I should have added. . . in the last pic- the "elbow" and shoulder sagged forward in the actual photo setting. In real life structure, the elbow would be/was just under the lower left hand corner of the "vital" area, where you see the blood shot mark from the arrow entrance.
This is the buck by the way. . .
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/1998KS.jpg)
Thanks for the pics Dan pretty interesting :thumbsup:
Some good points and illustrations above, and I appreciate everyone's input. Just to clarify, I was not and am not now trying to convince anyone of anything. "High" and "low" are pretty relative when considering the size of a deer's heart/lung area. I don't have too many worries about my ability to track a double-lunged deer, regardless of the height of the shot. Having said that, after due consideration, I will continue to aim mid-low, more for the "reflex" factor than anything!
It is beneficial to discuss such things, IMO, for the sake of both the posters and readers.
Thanks! :thumbsup:
a heart shot deer is still breathing. A double lung shot deer is getting no oxygen to the brain- that deer will die faster..unequivocally, without argument faster.
I disagree with Ray. It is relatively impossible to hit the heart without taking out a portion of both lungs. Also when shot in the heart the blood doesn't lungs to become aerated to deliver oxygen to the brain..
Dr. Patrick Kelly MD
should read "doesn't reach the lungs"
I shot a doe through the middle of the heart. She ran no more than 40 yds. There was almost no blood trail, the heart had stopped beating. I aim mid body tight to the shoulder. I'll take a doubble lung over a heart shot any day.
pdk, I've heart shot several deer inadvertantly and did not touch lungs.
If I was good enuf in a hunting situation to place an arrow precisely where I wanted to, I would go thru the big vessels/arteries just above the heart, which would also take out both lungs in the process. I think having the heart intact and pumping helps with a good blood trail and fast bleed out. In the few times I've been lucky enuf to get this hit, it has produced the shortest and heaviest trails of all. When I can follow the trail from the tree, I figure it's pretty good.
A sharp broadhead thru both lungs and any critter is down. Seems to me that the closer to the center of the lungs that broadhead goes, the quicker the critter goes down.
I also agree with those that feel most 3-D targets are marked too far back. That's one reason I rarely shoot for score.
You've been unlucky Ray. Irrespective of that, if blood doesn't reach the lungs it will never become oxygenated and therefore be unable to reach the brain in an oxygenated state. There are some large blood vessel, such as the main pulmonary arteries, superior vena cava, and others that can cause massive blood loss, but if these vessels aren't hit a deer with a comparable hit in the heart will almost certainly expire more quickly.
I like a Double Lung hit a bit lower and trying to keep the heart still pumping the blood to get a better blood trail! With blood coming out both side of the deer!
I think we may be starting to split hairs here. I really don't think that the time it takes for a deer to go down after a heart, double-lung, or heart and lung shot is going to be much different. Every one of those shots will lead to a quick death and a short blood trail. The difference is negligible.
I agree with you pseman. I felt compelled to comment when I felt incorrect information was presented. Double lung or heart equals dead.
Gotta laugh. . . the difference in these shots are inches, and we are trad guys!! I am not sure any of us are that good in calling a shot!! :bigsmyl: