Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Mike Orton on February 09, 2007, 12:29:00 AM
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I know what I want but I can't seem to find it and always have to compromise...now before the crowd of Gangsters make plans to lynch me or preach about shot placement, hear me out.
I enjoy my big snuffers and woodsmans for deer sized game but I have issues about these broadheads. Neither of the two are particularly durable if bone is encountered as they are made of fairly soft metals. Shoot even a deer in the shoulder and see if those heads don't sway down and ruin the blade. Yes Magnus guarantees for life and that is indeed a generous offer. They are easy to sharpen but they just don't hold the edge like a high quality knife will hold. For those guys that like the burr left on the edge the metal in the Woodsman and the Snuffer will burr-up like a champ. I like mine polished razor sharp w/ no burr.
I generally shoot the large Magnus 1 or the Grizzly Grandes for the larger beasts, i.e. elk, moose & bears etc. but in my opinion, the Magnus 1 is too short (the work of cutting happens too quickly in a short span) and the Grizzly Grande is too narrow for my liking. I want a wider blade than the Griz offers. I like the metal quality in the Grizzly, I like how once honed and polished it takes on a shine of quality tool steel and it is oh so durable.
I'd just like to see someone make a 3 inch long by 1 9/16 wide two blade broadhead, laminated and copper brazed for strength, sharpened on one side like the Grizzly and slotted to accept the breakaway bleeder blades like the old Bear broadheads used to be. I want those bleeders to easily break away if they encountered bone. I want that metal hardened sufficiently to hold an edge well, (I'm not familiar enough with the Rockwell scale to quote a specific number). I want solid blade broadheads that will not swag down upon impact with heavy bone. I want them to be tapered so I can epoxy a steel broadhead adapter to use as a screw on and at least 200 grains before I get to the adapter. This would give me the option of a four blade head to use on speed goats, whitetails, Mulies etc. and the same broadhead, in 2 blade fashion to use on the big nasty beasts.
The closest head I can find is a 190 Grizzly Grande, but it lacks the slots for bleeder blades, and is too narrow for my preference. How about making me a Grizzly Super Grande in 1 9/16 wide, so after I fully sharpen the beast it is a full 1 1/2" wide. Slot the danged thing and offer some breakaway bleeders. Harden up that metal and make me work toward polishing it sharp.
With the trend toward high FoC arrows, heavy weight arrows, skinny arrows, etc., and thanks to the great work of Dr. Ashby, it seems like one of the broadhead manufactures would finally just "get it".
The Simmons line of broadheads come close but in my opinion fail (all due respect to the Simmons line) in several areas, i.e. poor metal hardness, double sided edge and non-laminate structure. But they're big, no doubt about that.
Okay guys, now blast away at me.... :banghead:
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ribtek 190
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Ribtek 190
Not quite wide enough (1 1/4" before sharpening), has the length though, good length to width ratio...Rockwell 45, not quite hard enough
Is the Ribteck a copper brazed laminated construction?
Admittedly close, not quite there though
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I can't imagine improving on the Magnus I, with or without bleeder blades.
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Razorcaps? I like them.
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Ace Super Express 200 gr.
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Have you looked at the Zephyr heads? Seem to have a lot of what you are looking for.
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When you find them, let me know, I'll stock 'em!
Actually, I think it could be done with modification to the 150 El Grande, adding some steel to make it wider and it would probably still come in around 200 or so. Interesting idea.
I'd like to see Grizzly's slotted as well, I'm not talented enough to do it myself. I love the Grizzly as it is, but sometimes you don't need all that penetration and a little extra cutting would be nice.
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Mike,
You make great points. The problem, I believe, is that everything is a give and take in the manufacturing process. The Simmons heads meet most of your physical descriptions, they just can't hold up to the same abuse that an 'ol grizz can. Like many, I have also often wondered why grizzlies can't be made that are presharpened or at least properly tapered on the business end. It takes a fair amount of work to get them there and you lose a fair amount of cutting diameter. Also keep in mind, that making a grizzly wider on the back end will affect penetration. A 1 1/2" grizzly won't penetrate the same as the 1" variety in Dr. Ashby's studies. The Stos heads are as close as I can seem to get to having great penetration, reasonably easy sharpening, good blood trails, and good durability. The best thing is there is still room for improvement for an entrepeneur with some broadhead sense!!!!!
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I have another thought....What about Ashby's Ultimate as a broadhead name. Dr. Ed, are you listening? Who better to design the ultimate broadhead than the guy who has done the most work studying them. I will stop thinking now :bigsmyl:
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STOS period
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Keep thinking Doc!!!You have a great idea! :clapper:
Dr. Ashby you listening????????? :pray:
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You've had 160 grain Snuffers bend? Mine are tough as can be....and I've tortured em a bit :) I was even able to snap a Grizzly 190 at the ferrule stump shooting :D
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Roger,
I agree, the Magnus 1 comes pretty close, I just wish it was a little wider and longer to give a better width to length ratio.
Buckracks, I took a look at the Razorcaps and consider them too fragile to split bone without swagging the blades. Also that design, while offering variable weights, limits broadhead weight to 200 grains. For strictly North America hunting they are probably fine but I'd put them into the same category as the Snuffers or Wensel Woodsmans. By the way, all distinguished company to be in.
ParaDocs, The Ace Super Express is a broadhead that I'd not considered in the past. Thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look at this one. In looking at the Ace website photo it didn't look like the 200 grain offered a slit for breakaway bleeders. I'll want to look into how hard the metal is on these as well. Thanks for the tip.
Bill, the Zephyr is not a laminated design. While I have no personal experience with this broadhead my inclination would be to question structural integrity. But certainly worth a look.
SloBowinMo, We're not talking about rocket science here. I'm personally not one to flock toward the newest gadgets out there. As stated ad-nausium on this and other archery web sites most any broadhead when delivered to the boilerworks will perform on even the largest beasts. Rip a hole in the heart of any animal and it will expire. Nuff said there. But the realities of time spent afield dictate that pooh happens when arrows fly toward animals. Often the animals don't cooperate. It's for those times when I want absolute confidence in what is attached to my arrow. Good old fashion tried and true designs that are "Over Engineered" in the toughness category, that will punch through heavy bones while being pushed by heavy, slow to moderately moving arrows(170 to 210 fps) are what I seek. I want two holes punched through the critter, east and west sides of a north bound animal. I want those holes to be substantial in size and I want to be capable of reusing that broadhead numerous times because it maintains the structureal integrity of sharpness, has not deformed (swagged) the blades as it has broken (not cut) bones in it's path. The twisting motion of the single edge sharpening design as described in Dr. Ashby's report appears to be critical in design property to facilitate the shattering of bone, rather than the extra work of cutting through bone.
For me personally I think the Grizzly folks need to consider building a wider Grizzly Grande that is slotted to accept a breakaway bleeder, while eyeing quality control to keep that hardness way up high. I don't mind spending extra time sharpening a hardened tool. I also don't mind spending more money for the broadhead that meets all the criteria set forth.
:campfire: Thanks to those who took the time to respond in a respectful manner. That respect is what makes this web site so great!
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I like STOS heads but I do wish they had a bleeder as that little bit wil open a critter up just a little more for the blood.
I shoot mainly 115 lb whitetails, but will try for a big eastern NC blackie this year w/my curve. They are regularly 500 to 600 lbs. I know my setup will put him down no problem but I worry about blood trail(Don't want to go there!!). Maybe it won't be a long trail if I do happen to get a trail!
Any head you mention will work, I just don't think there is the perfect head out there. I look at it like hazard mitigation, see what is the worst that could happen and plan for that! Yes it will be overkill for the regular hits but if pooh happens(and it does) you will be good to go.
I like threads like this because you get good responses you can learn from.
Later
Jason
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DoctorBrady,
You make a good point about wider broadheads not penetrating as well as a 1 inch (finish sharpening dimension) Grizzly. Certainly the extra 50% in width would affect penetration. But what we're learngin about high FoC, heavy arrows, skinny shafting, ect. will improve upon penetration as well.
I'd be all for Dr. Ashby lending his name to a new Super Grizzly, except for the fact that weree he to do such a thing the skeptics out there would negate or dismiss all his great study data as a means of marketing for his own personal profit. One thing that has personally impressed me so much of Dr. Ashby has been his apparent personal integrity toward the purity of the scientific process.
J-dog, the Stos is a good product, no question there. A bit small from where I'd ultimately like to be and does not hold that single edge design that Dr. Ashby touts. Not sure of the materials hardness issue.
Arrow4Christ, yes sir, I've had the 160 Snuffers swag down on me. I like them a lot, don't get me wrong. For deer sized game they are awesome but the three blade design does not penetrate through heavy bone as well as the two blade design. Ask too-short about this one. Also I've never been overly impressed with the quality of the hardness of metal used in the Magnus products.
As for your snapping a Grizzly, I've not suggested the Grizzly is 100% bulletproof 100% of the time. This is not a thread to promote one broadhead over another but merely to generate dialog toward the improvement of the most important part of the archery equation. The broadhead that's attached the to arrow is the most important part, not the bow, not the quiver, not the high end binocs, it's the broadhead that seals the deal.
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When you get down to all the specifics you want, cause this is about wants, not needs, it's doubtful you will fill the bill without building it yourself.
I hope to have a high tech machinist bud EDM some slots in a set of STOS 160's for me: that's my idea of the ultimate broadhead without building one from the ground up.
I may also do a few of my Deadheads: tied for second as my ultimate.
I don't have a list as specific as yours, mainly because I can't tell an animal killed with a 2 1/2" long head vs one killed with a 3" long head...same with width. I've not had any issues with either of these steels, they have plenty of cutting surface, at least the STOS is as tough as anything built if I wanted to hunt water buff and up (and the deadhead would be more than enough for anything below).
One of the reasons broadheads don't hold an edge like a knife is simply they are engineered that way. Much harder and heads would tend to break or shatter upon hard bone impact....or especially on a rock on the exit. So manufacturers in turn don't make them as hard as many knives. Now some manufacturers are leaning more towards knife design, ie. german kenetics and their silver flame using a very high tech steel that is more often found in the custom knife industry. And hence, their price. Mainstream broadhead manufacturers know most people won't pay the price for the silver flame, so they don't make them out of a higher grade steel...simply for economy. Odds are, the arrow is going to zip through the animal and skip off into the distance down the mountain anyway....why waste $25 bucks killing a critter when you can waste $8?
Your mileage may vary...but that's the way I see it. Good luck in your broadhead hunt, let us see it when you decide to build it or find something that fills your criteria.
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The simmons and stos are my two favorites.I like both but will reserve the stos for times a straight down shot is needed or if I need to shoot a lighter weight bow than I am now.Untill then the big simmons rule. :)
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Mike,
I agree with your point that having Dr. Ed endorse a head might detract from his studies. It was made somewhat tongue in cheek. However, the good doc is no spring chicken anymore, so when he isn't able to pull big bows and sling arrows through those poor buffalo, he may need another past time...building the "perfect broadhead" would be a good one :) In the meantime, I like JC's idea of having a standard Stos machined to allow for a bleeder blade. As Dr. Ashby's studies show, the Stos is a very close second to the grizzly when transformed into a tanto style tip. In my opinion, it is also much easier to sharpen and cuts a bigger path than the grizzly 'cause you don't have to narrow it down so much in the sharpening process.
Like everyone else, I am anxiously awaiting the manufacturer, big money or small, that puts together all the great information we have on broadheads and builds a new number one...a broadhead that penetrates well, holds up well, sharpens easily, and cuts a hole so big you have to photoshop it to get it into TBM.
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Mike-Due to the interlocking ferrule, the big Ace broadhead might allow you to epoxy your own bleeders in place, if you feel you need them. Don't know the actual Rockwell hardness of the Ace, but think I remember they're several points harder than "average". I know they hold an edge extremely well, even when rattlin' around in a back quiver :thumbsup:
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I agree with JC. Plus when you look at the changes you request you really just change the shape of a few broadheads already on the market. It is the long and skinny plus the tanto nose and lack of 2 more blades that make it work. When you make the head wider, add the bleeders and do the math you now have every other two blade with bleeders on the market. In theory if you add 1/2" in width you'll need to add 1 1/2" in lenght to offset the change. Then you'll need to add a bit more to offset the extra work required to cut a bigger hole.
There isn't anything special about copper brazing steel to make a broadhead. It is done so they can make the broadheads cheep enough for people to buy.
Cost would be a factor, penetration would be a factor, and rather than bending heads they would shatter. I'm not saying improvements couldn't be made but if you add up you list it we already have it...it just looks different. :)
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stos then.
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One last point to consider. When shooting big game in Africa, where Dr. Ed did his earlier studies, blood trails are not an issue. The trackers don't depend on them like we do on this continent. Penetration, there is really the issue, so a lean grizzly will do just fine. You just need to get it through both lungs, despite what you might encounter along the way. On lighter skinned/boned animals here, penetration is important, but leaving a blood trail that we can follow is equally important. Here a gash that won't easily close becomes important, and a little extra width to catch a vessel that might have otherwise been a "near miss" is good. In such a case a 3 or 4 blade, or a really wide blade (Simmons, Magnus 1, etc) will likely yield better results. If I had a Stos with a flared back end or a Simmons with a tip that wouldn't curl, I would have only one package of broadheads on my work bench instead of the 4 or 5 varieties I have now.
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Looks like you are gonna have to make some trade heads and tie them on. Then you can make any size / shape you need. I'll bet there are a handful of guys here that can do it for you if you draw a design.
ChuckC
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I agree with your comments on weak metal on the WW.
The Ribtek 190 will do at a lesser hardness what others fail. Think of it as a broadhead equivalency to depleted Uranium by the way that the metal is compressed on the edges during manufacturing. The copper brazed thing is what you do when you can't do it with ONE piece!
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A Grizzly with bleeders is interesting...would the rotation that the single bevel supposedly creates be screwed up by a bleeder blade?
Or is the Grizzly rotation thing kind of mute, since the arrow is spinning anyway?
You talk about 'breakaway" bleeders, and I assume you mean the standard common bleeders we all know...would a removeable, but more durable bleeder be an advantage or disadvantage, in your opinion? I'm asking anyone, by the way....
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To all... having been associated with Magnus broaheads years ago (when they were in their "development" stage) I can say that when considering introducing a new broadhead to the market, one should have deeeeep pockets.
It's certainly not a ticket to untold riches and struggling to break even and still produce a decent product is the norm.
Much better to develope the concept than the actual product, then sell that to someone. :D
Roger... I've killed a pile of critters with the Magnus I and the standard bleeder that comes with it... and it works fine.
I've seldom had them "break away" with most hard impact shots resulting in bent bleeders.
They are high angle (choppy) in shape and I don't care for that a whole lot because it takes more energy to get them deep... I usually shoot enough bow to make that happen though! ;)
I was so afraid of those factory bleeders in the early days that I used Bear Razorhead bleeders in the Magnus I to very good effect.
Matter of fact, I've gone back to doing that very thing again
The Bear bleeders are much more apt to bend around hard stuff and maintain their integrity.
So I guess my answer would be that a more durable (heavier) bleeder would be a detriment.... the old Ace's had it right. Long, low, heavy duty bleeder that wasn't going anywhere and penetrated like gang busters.
Get Bob Mayo to reintroduce that head and you'd have something.
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Charlie - got a picture of that old Ace head?
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Roger,
The old Bear Razorhead two blade broadheads used to have a bleeder that you could insert to make the head into a four blade. But those bleeders were designed to break off if hard bone was contacted, thus in theory, allowing the arrow to continue penetration. They didn't always break, just on a scapula or solid vertebra.
That's what I was referring to when I mentioned a Grizzly w/ a breakaway bleeder.
Charlie, in today's industrial world any new broadhead that was to be produced would be a copy of one or more of the best features of American made technology, but only produced in China for pennies on the dollar. Is the TradGang translated into Chinese? I don't think I've ever seen any TradGangsters from the People's Republic of China???? :wavey:
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Mike, a friend of mine has had pretty good luck using a dremel tool with and ultra-thin cutting wheel, slotting the big Stos 'heads to accept the Magnus bleeders. I am not sure what the large bleeders weigh....maybe 25 grains? With the 160 grain Stos you shouldend up very close to 180-185 grains. I would think the weight lost from cutting the slots would amount to no more than 5-7 grains. If you don't want to mess with doing it yourself, I would bet a local machine shop wouldn't charge much to slot them for you! Just a thought! Mike
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Mike how about Zephyr Sasquatch 140 grain 4 blade and add a 100 grain steel insert or I shoot Muzzy phantoms 220 grain 4 blade screw ins. The muzzy's are scarey sharp..
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I found mine...3:1 ratio Modoc 125 0r 145 gr. 50 rockwell spring steel, flys like field tips...new owner , better product!!!! with this size its great on any game in North America!!!! :wavey: :D :thumbsup:
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with so much talk of "sharping easily but holding an edge" isn't that kind of an oxymoron ? If it sharpens easily then id doesn't hold the edge it has. i think if something sharpens easily then it MUST have softer metal then something that takes awhile to hone an edge. the harder it is to get the edge the harder something must be to take it away or dull the head. that is my redneck logic and i could be dead wrong.
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Stos with ground down tanto tip and filed one way, the opposite of Grizzleys to work with my left wing fletching and ashbys results. Has worked well for me.
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I sure had good luck with the 145 grain Eclipse this year.. Good steel and with a 100-125 grain steel insert you've got good weight up front.
May not have that 3 to 1 ratio but still a very nice big game head. In fact, it's my pick of the litter currently.. Plus they make them in 4 blade ala an insert as you request.
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Mike Bolin
I was considering trying the EDM machine (I think it's called Electro Discharge Machining) It's more accurate than the Dremel and can make a smaller cut. But I bet the dremel would also work. I wonder if the old injector razor blades could be adapted to the Grizzly?
BM22, you are right on correct...the type of metal that takes a honing from a stone to sharpen is what I'm looking for in a broadhead. I use a horizontal spinning wet stone to sharpen my broadheads. When someone tells me their broadhead is easy to sharpen that tells me the metal is already too soft for my taste.
Pat, I'm hearing many folks speak highly of the stos, particularly with the reground tanto head. That one deserves a good hard look.
Thanks to all for your thoughts and wisdom/experiances. Keep those thoughts following.
I've reached out for the guys at Grizzly via telephone. If anyone has email contact for them please advise. I'd like to talk to those folks about getting some raw grizzlies to tinker with, for the purpose of modifying a bleeder blade system and attempt to have them manufacture a wider broadhead from the start.
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Roger... as luck would have it I boxed up my broadhead collection yesterday and moved it to storage until I close on my new place on the 23rd.
Afraid that Ace won't see the light of day until after that. But I will get you a pic of it when I do.
I think it might have been called the Alaskan 4 blade. The bleeders could be a bear to remove but that ain't all bad.
Maybe Falk will chime in with a pic. He seems to have a great collection.
Mike Orton... the trouble with petitioning a company like the makers of the Grizzly to make a larger/wider head is that the blades are pretty close to finish dimention when they are punched out of the die.
That means there would have to be new dies made and that is the great expense of making new broadheads.
Once the tooling has been made then they have to be paid for and quite frankly Grizzly doesn't have that big a share of the broadhead market. It would take them forever to pay for the tooling even with huge popularity of the new product.
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Charlie,
I can appreciate the wisdom of your vast years of experience, but I've got to at least try to reach out to Grizzly. Who knows, maybe he'll want to sell the company. I'm looking at a soon to be retirement anyway. :knothead:
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Anything is possible Mike.... good luck. :thumbsup:
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Grizzly doesn't do e-mail. Phone is the way to go, but this is not a good time of year to get ahold of him. His other business runs him ragged till March or so.
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Charlie asked me to eventually show you the ACE he mentioned but already wrapped away. Glad to help here - and of course I had followed this thread VERY closely before being PM'ed by Charlie.
I share some of Mike's thoughts and would certainly like to build something like the "Eierlegende Wollmilchsau" (<= German for the "unreachable, universal, all together, never dulling gadget) :D
Unfortunately my collection is not that good as some of you might think it is. So I had to cheat a little to show you the head Charlie is most likely speaking of.
I took the pictures from Wade Phillips "book" (2. Ed., page A-27), together with a ACE "Jet 4-bld" with 1.7" bleeder in it. The "Alaskin 4" (solid and vented) is on the right and this will be the head Charlie is refering to, am I right?!
Notice that the "African 4" (left) was slotted to take a Bear auxillary blade! Also notice, that this head is ABCC #0001 with ACE bleeder!
(http://www.broadheads.de/Bilder/Foren/TradGang/ACE_4blds_01.jpg)
As I am lacking the old Alaskin I'll show you the very similar "Super-X-Press" and the 1.7" ACE bleeder in side view. A slightly larger (1.9") ACE bleeder was also available (see pics). For comparison see a 1956 Bear Razorhead with chrome bleeder ;)
(http://www.broadheads.de/Bilder/Foren/TradGang/ACE_4blds_02.jpg)
I am off now for some hours but will certainly check again.
Cheers, Falk
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Falk... thanks a bunch!! That's exactly the one and I'm pretty proud of my memory. :D
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You guys are awesome! Truely the backbone of institutional archery knowledge at the TradGang. I am humbled...
As for those broadheads presented by Falk, while that looks like a fine broadhead I am still leaning toward a laminated broadhead. I believe the laminated broadhead, high carbon content steel heat treated to at least a Rockwell 54 hardness, then tempered would be the ticket. I'm really not too concerned about metal failure through shatter, particularly w/ the lamination issue. Many of the best Japanese knives and swords are laminated. I like the one side sharpening 40 to 45 degrees with the tanto tip.
I'd like to field comments about the difference between a straight angle broadhead vs. the broadhead that is slightly rounded on the angle width. Currently the Grizzly is a straight angle while others, in particular the Silver Flame by German Kinetics, is an oval shaped broadhead. Admittedly I have no experience with the oval design. Dr Ashby, please chime in anytime.
I don't want screws or moving parts. I don't want vents. Right now I'm leaning toward a dimension of 3 3/8" long by 1.5 wide (finish honed dimension), slotted to accept a long slender bleeder blade that would finish out at 7/8" wide. This would come to 2.25 to one Length to Width ratio. Granted it's not the highly sought after 3 to 1 ratio but in order to accomodate a 1 1/2" broadhead I'd need 4.5" in length. That spear would be just too much of a good thing and would be difficult to control in flight.
I wonder if we could build of Titanium rather than steel?
For you metalurists out there, does Titanium take a heat treating and tempering the way the carbon steel does? :help:
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Titanium is good for ferrules, bad for blades. Much stronger than aluminum but a weak sister next to real steel. It doesn't sharpen and hold an edge as well either. And it's expensive and hard to work with I'm told.
That's just been my hands on experience, no formal education in regard to that.
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That's why I'm asking, cause I don't know everything...
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what is wrong with stanless steel? really hard and seems to hold an edge.
i think the best broadhead with be the simmons interceptor in stanless steel, a tanto tip and a better bleeder blade attatchment system. i have bent the insert in my goldtip arrow before i bent my simmonsshark 160. so it should be plenty strong.
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I just traded for some Magnus Mag I in 160 grain and have some Ribtek 190 grain coming any day. Magnus is tough to beat for toughness and Ribteks are next to indestructible. Can't wait to giv ethem both a try on Texas hogs.
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bm22... the problem with stainless steel seems to be it's contrary nature when exposed to heat... it likes to distort/warp. The less heating the better, so heat treating and welding are a pain for the finished product.
Mike... like you I don't know everything either (nobody here does!). The cool thing is that the combined knowledge on this site is mind boggling.
Very little slips through the cracks. :)
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Mike... should also add that some of the Ace heads made now are laminated tip for strength. A great improvement to what is already a fine head.
Note about the pictured heads: I find it odd that bowhunters of the late 50's through the early 70's weren't afraid of multiblade heads like todays "traditional" bowmen.
On a curved (convex edge) you naturally get a steeper angle to the long axis at the tip... that equates to more strength at a critical point for failure of the broadhead.
I believe Doc Ashby has found that a concave or straight edge gives a slight advantage to penetration... which is the same thing Howard Hill determined years ago.
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Thanks for that picture!