I was just reading in an old Traditional Bowhunter (Dec/Jan 2002) during a break, an article describing Idaho's "new" traditional archery season. I thought, "This is really neat. Someday Montana might do the same." Then I realized the only wood arrows I've shot were in a friend's backyard with a nearly undrawable, for me, selfbow he'd made. The homemade arrows didn't shoot well for either of us.
I shoot draw weights under 46#. And as I age, draw weight will only go down. I have been attempting to improve arrow penetration by using as much of Ed Ashby's information as I can. . . .
which brings me to wood shafts. I know essentially nothing about wood shafts. I do not know how much of Ashby's Extreme FOC technology translates to wood arrows. Shooting a bow of marginal draw weight with an arrow whose penetration is significantly inferior to an optimized carbon arrow is what I do not want to do. But I have no idea how to create a wood arrow that avoids the problem -- or if such a wood arrow is possible.
A footed shaft with a heavy wood out front, or one of those metal sleeves I've seen that are tapped for a screw in.....either should do the trick...if that aint enough...foot and sleeve one.
190 grizzlies help too!
-Brett
Oh my goodness. Terry, you're speaking in tongues. Would those things be kosher for a traditional archery season?
Can you -- not now, when you have time -- proceed as though I have no idea what you meant? Remember, carbon shafts I just buy. Any thought focuses on which one, never on adding "stuff" to it to bring it to perfection.
I was thinking of going to a tapered wood arrow (the last 10in.) and putting 190 grain grizzlies up front. If my calculations are correct I should have over 20% FOC.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/IronBull_/Asprin_Arrow_b_PB.jpg)
This is what I shoot Asprins with.
Shrew Daddy taught me this :bigsmyl:
Where did you get that COOL broadhead?? :biglaugh:
Nice vance!
How about a heavy 250 grain flint knapped single bevel head on a river cane shaft that should have serious foc and look alot cooled than Vance's version.
toilets everywhere are quivering in fear.
That reminds me...
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/c_sweeney/PunkinChukinBow002-1.jpg)
Works on wood, aluminum, fiberglass, and carbon, too... :bigsmyl:
In all seriousness though, I'm betting a POC footed with ipe or dymondwood could really give you a hefty front-end....
Looks like a chitty broadhead to me.
I've been experimenting with high FOC woodies. If you get the spine right they will fly exceptionally well. On lightweight shafts though, I'm needing 250 grains to get over 20% FOC, and on anything a little heavier over 300. My bow needs about 20# extra spine to make that jump in point weight work.
Iron Bull, I had to save that picture for future use! I love it!
It amazes me that you think you need to front load your wooden arrows excessively. Bazillions of deer have fallen to regular wooden arrows with "normal weight" broadheads long before Dr. Ed was a gleam in his Pappy's eye. If I read his information correctly, it is aimed at dangerous, thick skinned African game, not thin skinned, thin boned Whitetails here. JMHO Rich
QuoteOriginally posted by Iron Bull:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/IronBull_/Asprin_Arrow_b_PB.jpg)
This is what I shoot Asprins with.
Shrew Daddy taught me this :bigsmyl:
A puckish sense of humor. I like that.
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Caranthir:
I'm in elk country. And I used to have my backyard fence electrified to keep grizzly bears from my garbage cans in fall. Terrible place to live, but better me than someone else.
Relying on less than optimum arrows is what I prefer to avoid. The more penetration I can expect from my arrow, the less likely a mistaken shot becomes a regrettable one.
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Are laminated woods significantly more dimensionally stable and warp resistent when compared with [any] routinely used non-laminated wood? In another thread I read that hickory shafts are among the most dense and impact resistent shaft woods. If laminated woods are more stable, does any shaft maker offer laminated hickory shafting?
I've identified straight shafts, tapered shafts, and barrel tapered shafts. Penetration
and impact resistance may be contrary attributes for wood shafts. Which is most impact resistent profile? Which penetrates best? Which shaft profile is best combination of the two?
One school where I taught had several outside walls painted with a Teflon® paint to reduce the effect of spray-painted graffiti. Does a Teflon® paint for wood exist? Possibly such a finish, avoiding taper tip and fletching, would enhance penetration in non-bone tissue without lowering impact resistance?
Danger Danger Will Robinson !!! I just wanted to add pumpkin + arrow = splinter in forearm or eye ball,dude with pumpkin on arrow should have medical insurence paided in full for when arrow breaks to get splinters removed from forearm and eye....That really hurts bad too....bowdoc
Hey Naphtali...I'm a new guy as well. I've been struggling with trying to figure out FOC, fletching combinations, broadhead choice, etc. for my wood hunting arrows. I hope this thread takes a turn back to your questions.
Anticipating responses, I've queried a custom laminated hardwood manufacturer about shafting wood manufacture. I did not attempt to tell them their business. Rather, I attempted to tell them results wanted; let them fill in the blanks, I hope. If I asked the wrong questions, please let me know the right ones.
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I seek a dimensionally stable, warp resistent, highly impact resistent wood for archery arrow shafting. Presently, wood shafts are made from: hickory, laminated birch, Ipe; Sitka spruce, maple, and other.
My goal is shafting as impact resistent as hickory that is essentially distortion free while being weatherproof. The material must be no more difficult to work than the least workable of the woods I identified previously. Thickness of shaft would be in the range of .325-.350 inch along up to 33-inch length. The rough dimensions I furnished allow shaft to be customized for bows, archers, and intended use.
Please be aware I am not going to do the shaft creation. Rather than try tell you your business, I have tried to give you results wanted. While dowel stock would be easiest for shaft fabrication, panel should be acceptable, albeit more expensive for the fabricatior. If hickory shafts did not warp, this would be my wood of choice -- but it does. So I'm trying to achieve as close to inert version as I can.
Hey Naphtali,you may have to search around and locate some old ones.But Bill Sweetland Forgewoods would be the only arrow I can think of that may work for you.Bill would shoot one into a 1/2 board,which was only taperd on the end...no metal tip.Sometimes you will see a few listed on auction....bowdoc
If you want wood, lots of FOC and a 'moderate' bow; say 45-50#. Then, at least in my opinion, you should be striving for a lighter shaft not heavier. Lam Birch and Maple and Hickory with 20% FOC will put you in the 850+ weight range.
I sent some really high quality 11/32 tapered Cedar shafting to be footed with Wenge and Purpleheart to achieve added strength where it counts and more FOC. My goal is a 600-650 grain arrow including a 160 grain Grizzly or STOS broadhead and close to 20% FOC.
I figure this is a really great hog arrow from my 50# bow.
wondering what a very high spined tapered sitka with a 160-190 head or bigger would come out as far as foc
I think Bob Morrison is coming out with some real heavy broadheads...read something on his web-site them I think.
Where is Seeley Lake?
I bet you hope for a pass through on the plunger arrow :biglaugh:
Or should I say a "flush through" :jumper:
Why bother with all this? Just keep shooting carbons with high FOC. I love good wood too but to do what ya want is difficult. i have some footed with wenge and 160 grain broadheads nd I still can only get about 16% or so. The aluminum things terry mentions are very light, I have some for the Techno hunt system and they weigh about 14 grains, they make heavier ones but not much. If want penetration out of wood just shoot heavy wood like ipe shafts or purpleheart. Shawn
I should also note my shafts spine 77#s and I shoot them form a 54# at my draw RER Arroyo. I believe they weigh right at 590-600 grains all set up. Shawn
Bjorn: I get 15% FOC with tapered, compressed 11/32 cedars footed with wenge and tipped with 160 grain STOS broadheads. About 680-690 grains. I'm working on an internal metal footing that I think will get it up to 20% FOC or more.
...drill a hole in the end before you taper for points, and glue in a length of nail shank....
By the way, we are still trying to get a trad only season here in Idaho. Not everyone around, including some trad shooters, thinkis it's a good idea. I like it. Oregon has bowhunting only areas. I'd like to see some trad only areas. About the time the article you read came out we came up with another idea here in Idaho (I know, I know, that's our quota for the decade!) Traditional muzzleloader seasons. Now all muzzleloader seasons are "trad".
As far as extreme FOC woodies.... I'd stay with a "lighter" shaft and foot it for sure, along with a heavy BH of course.
Mike
I think that Napthali is trying to get the best penatrating wood arrow that he can, 'cause the TRADTIONAL season requires wood arrows. (Right?)
Napthali, if you are looking for a good penatrating wood arrow, stay with something like ash or hickory, tapered and maybe footed. Some years ago, I used Forgewoods, as I wasn't real crazy about aluminum arrows, but now they are collectors items. For me carbon is the optimum arrow material.
Napthali, from reading all the postings over the years concerning higher than normal FOC, and using high FOC arrows for the past five years, I suspect that addtional testing will determine that the extreme FOC is less a universal solution or enhancement to the problem. Meaning that, the ability to concentrate the weight distribution where the intitial contact is made with the target, is possible with the specific properties of carbon arrows, but not the other commonly used shafting materials. This may be seen by watching some of the slow-motion videos of carbon and aluminum arrows hitting targets and seeing the difference in what has been called "noodling" between the two materials. This is the vibration that occurs in the arrow after the hit. Carbon seems to behave one way, aluminum another, wood another, etc. Additionally, all carbons are not equal, some are mostly fiberglass, very tough, heavier than other carbons, but tend to be more flexible and have a lesser density. Very much how woods are different . If you fish, think fishing rods.
The benefit of the high FOC arrow may be more pronounced with carbon arrows than say aluminum or the wood arrows.
Each material has it's strengths and weaknesses, which will become more and more apparent as more trials both informal and formal are performed.
Some years ago, on this boards first years, there was a lot of discussion on front weighted carbons and how remarkably they flew and how "hard" they hit, so for at least this board, it is not exactly a new idea.
If my opinion was asked for, I would suggest that you get a tapered, high quality wood arrow selection for your bow that you would use in the TRADITIONAL season, of moderate weight, spined properly, flying absolutely as good as it could (perfectly tuned arrow), a real sharp low profile broadhead, and put the broadhead where it can perform the best.
Define the criteria, define what the successful outcome is to be and provide yourself with the tools to best achieve that goal, with the limitations of the situation - i.e. wood arrows only.
Oh yeah, get the best carbon arrow that works for your bow and use it all the other times, if you want the highest performance. There is always the chance the wood arrow is the BEST performer, too.
Chuck
Fatman: That's essentially what I'm doing. Using a 3/16 rod instead of a nail for more weight, about 50 grains per inch. Fun to play with. Haven't had a chance to test them out yet to see if they hold together when they hit something hard.
Terry had the complete answer in the second post back on page 1.
Orion, let us know how the test goes.....
QuoteOriginally posted by Seeking Trad Deer:
Where is Seeley Lake?
Missoula County Montana, about 70 miles north-northeast of Missoula. Imagine upstate New York,
circa 1758, with a bad attitude, and that's home.