Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: NorthShoreLB on March 11, 2008, 02:36:00 AM
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One of my favorite quotes is "I DON'T WANT TO SHAVE THEM, I WANT TO KILL THEM !!!!" by John Shultz.
Now it's hard to not agree with the superior penetration capability given by razor sharp heads.
My argument starts when I look at veins and arterys, extremely tought and elastic, I belive that a serrated edge is far superior in cutting them, a good example is the tomato, ever tryed cutting thru one even with an extemely sharp knife ?
...well you'll realise soon that the sking bends but don't break, now, with very little pressure cut with a serrated edge knife, and bingo you're in business.
I wish someone made a heavy glue on, serrated edge head,...I'll be theyr first costumer,.... at the time being I have to be happy to use the Hill method.
I can't tell I ever had a penetration problen, even on big pigs, but I had shot a bit back a few times, and still bagged the critter, .....maybe because of the ease the head cut veins and arterys :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
Now I know that I wont have many of you in my camp on this one, but I belive that an healthy dabate is always informative and makes us all the wiser.
M
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I love debate. As an old retired meat cutter, I will debate you on the quality of steel. Serrated like the ginsu knives is a great idea for someone who doesn't know how to sharpen and keep a blade. Good old carbon steel will take an edge and hold it, if you know what you are doing.
The stainless blades of 440c and better are darn good products for the average consuner. But they don't hold a candle to good old carbon.
Just my personal opinion.
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Serrated for me :
I have recovered my grissly broadhead several times in the dirt behind few game and the blade was still sharp.
I use a backquiver and i have seen that the serrated edge seems to hold its edge better than a razor one, i will think , it should be the same on game specially on our " tough " wildboar when the skin is full of dirt and mud.
Just an opinion
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I'm in your camp :thumbsup: I shoot ribtec's. I'll take a file and put 3 to 4 serrations in the last third of the blade. Then file shapen on a home made block to hold the files and long angels. I love that ruff but sharp fell you get. Cut your finger with that and it wont close and bleeds like the dickens.
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Hey, can you post a picture of your broadhead ?
sound interesting !!
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I've gone back and forth on this too, I can see both sides so I'm going to try the new BuzzCuts this year. Instead of wondering I'm just gonna shoot and find out!
I am pretty confident though, one of my hunting buds shot the serrated Steel Force heads for several years. It was my opinion his bloodtrails were consistently better than average. :thumbsup: He was shooting 4 blades though, I'm going to try the 2 blade.
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It has often been said that serrated blades are the best choice for cutting rope, vegetables, and bread.
Personally, I prefer a surgical edge for every cutting job except the bread, and even bread can be cut cleanly if the blade is thin and sharp enough. I'm with Bowferd on this one.
Ron
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I use steel force serrated sabertooths - I never had a penetration issue and it leaves a decent wound. Serrated for me.
Bill
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I think one of Ashby's reports spoke against serrated blades.....
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Louis Armbruister, Zebra bows, once when we shooting at his house showed me how he does it. Sharpens with a file, then with the file flipped pulls the narrow flat to pull a nasty burr. i tried it on several deer. I was surprisedthat the burr usually stayed intact. I have always been told how sharpening ahead like Hill will pull hair through a wound. the only broadhead I have ever seen matted in hair was a razor sharp Thunderhead. I also use razor sharp at times, I have a sense that with some hits and light bows, under forty, there may be a bit more penetration, but then through is through, so why worry on that point, worry about the knarly stuff.
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Which cuts better: serrated edge whose serrations are clogged with tissue; or smooth edge?
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All I can do is echo Bowferd and Sharpster on this.
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From a medical standpoint, there is no question about which type of cut bleeds the longest and most freely; it's the one made by the thinnest, sharpest, smoothest edge. Why? Because the thinner, sharper and smoother the cutting edge the less of the tissue lining the blood vessel's inner wall is disrupted.
Disruption of the inner lining of the vessel wall initiates the release of the protein, prothrombin. Prothrombin is converted to the enzyme thrombin, through a reaction with the blood plasma. Thrombin catalyzes the conversion of fibrinogen to fibrin; the last step in coagulation of the blood. Coagulation stops or retards the rate of hemorrhaging; which is exactly what the bowhunter does not want to happen.
The greater the 'tearing effect' of the cutting edge, the more prothrombin released. The more prothrombin released, the more thrombin produced. The more thrombin there is, the more fibrinogen converted to fibrin. The more fibrin, the shorter the clotting time. The shorter the clotting time, the faster the rate of blood loss decreases. The faster the blood loss decreases, the less the total blood loss (per unit of time).
There isn't a highly significant difference when a major vessel is severed. Clotting alone isn't going to seal that off. However, there is credible medical evidence that if the shaft remains in the wound it contributes (applies) direct pressure on the wound. Furthermore, at least according to research by the Royal Academy of Veterinary Surgeons, if the arrow shaft remains in the wound AND the animal continues to move, pressure between shaft and wound is further increased. The combination of the two; direct pressure of the shaft on the wound and shortened clotting time; can result in hemorrhagic sealing, or near-sealing, of even substantial vessels; significantly retarding onset of physiologic shock and ensuing collapse. Sometimes these factors can even prevent the onset of shock and collapse.
Even with a pass-through hit, clotting time does, however, always become a very important factor when only small-diameter vessels have been severed; such as on a 'muscle-tissue only' hit, or a pure gut hit that misses the few major vessels. Recovering an animal after a 'muscle only' hit? Yes, it does sometimes happen, but requires (1) that the bleeding from the capillaries continue unabated and (2) careful and correct follow-up procedures are used.
I'll opt for an edge that's as sharp, smooth and thin as possible.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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I use Steele Forces glue on 140 gr Saber Tooth on my wood arrows and 125 gr screw on for the carbons. These are the best heads I have found. Razor sharpe up front and serrated on the back half. You may be a little hard pressed finding the glue-on, but I just happen to have around 20 three packs laying around.
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I always try to make my broadheads as sharp as possible and not serrated. Always wondered, however, how much they might dull just cutting through hair, cartilege and rib before getting into the body cavity. I suppose that has more to do with type and angle of bevel and thickness and hardness of the steel than the type of edge put on it.
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Jerry,
If you'll add the TYPE of steel into that, you could not be more correct! Not all steels are equal, regardless of how you treat, temper or sharpen them. You have to start with good ingredients to get good results.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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I have often wondered if serrated edges may perform better on bone. I know when field dressing or butchering my hand saw is much more useful for cutting through bone than my straight edged knife.
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S-B-MO,
on a repetitive motion (sawing) on the surface, sure, but not on a one time "push" into it.
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Tim,
There's a huge difference between the cutting action of a saw, as opposed to a slicing blade. It is the off-set and opposing cutting angles of the saw's teeth which 'chips away' the material being cut. A serrated slicing edge has nothing in common, mechanical-function wise, with a saw blade, other than that both can be used to cut things.
When I started out, and for many years thereafter, I used 'Hill type' serrations on my BH's. The more wound channels I checked out, the more convinced I became that they are not as effective, overall, as a very smooth and very sharp edge.
Will they kill game? You bet they will. Are the the most effective? I don't believe they are, for the reasons previously posted. On a pass-through hit through the thorax, I doubt that it makes very much difference which you use; either will be quickly lethal. It's the marginal hits, where every cc of blood loss might make a difference between recovery and loss that the thin, smmoth, razor-honed edge makes a difference.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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" in god we trust, all others bring data"
i will have to go with the good Doctor on this one, give it to me as sharp and smooth as possible.
have you ever cut your self with a razor blade, i cut my finger several times, but one time in piticular it did't hurt at all but i seriously thouht i was going to bleed to death, it never stopped bleeding. I had to wrap my hand in a roll of toilet paper as tight as i could.
maybe in the short term there will be more blood loss do to the tearing effect but in the long run the pain and blood clotting will stop the blood flow. it is only the long run when you really need to added blood. if it goes down in 40 yards anyone could find it. it is when the deer runs several hundred yards when you need all the blood you can get.
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Thanks Ed,
Shot placement! Shot placement! Shot placement!
Since few of us can shoot with 100% pinpoint accuracy, it's wise keep our broadheads as sharp as we can possibly get them. There's no worse feeling than knowing that we have killed but, can't recover an animal.
Ron
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Holy crap I never new so much about blood clotting, very interesting. Thanks Ed
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Thanks you, Roger.
Ron, almost any arrow works on a perfect hit; only a few work on the really poor hits. However, those that do work on the really poor hits will also work on every perfect hit ... and I'll personally guarantee that in writing!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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I'm with the good Doctor on this one.
I have heard a lot, and seen a lot about the serrated heads, and while they may be good I just can't seem to bring myself to use them.
To justify that I look at the issue of penetration. Obviously the more resistance that you have the less penetration you are likely to get, burrs or serration equal uneven blades leading to less penetration.
Manny, you use the tomato theory, but you have to realize that you are using a sawing motion to cut through the skin. Take a straight edge knife that has been properly sharpened and try to cut through it, if it's been sharpened correctly you should have to use little more than the weight of the knifes blade to start the cut.
Yoyu have to look at it more of a stabbing/slicing motion than a sawing motion.
One question to ask yourself, how many butchers have you seen using a Ginsu or any serrated knife for that matter.
Just my 2 cents.
Keith
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I kinda like the best of both worlds. I will use a Medium diamond jig and then finish with an accusharp. It kind of gives it a little rough edge that will shave hair off your hand EASILY. I will NOT use a head that will not shave hair. BILL
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Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
From a medical standpoint, there is no question about which type of cut bleeds the longest and most freely; it's the one made by the thinnest, sharpest, smoothest edge. Why? Because the thinner, sharper and smoother the cutting edge the less of the tissue lining the blood vessel's inner wall is disrupted.
Disruption of the inner lining of the vessel wall initiates the release of the protein, prothrombin. Prothrombin is converted to the enzyme thrombin, through a reaction with the blood plasma. Thrombin catalyzes the conversion of fibrinogen to fibrin; the last step in coagulation of the blood. Coagulation stops or retards the rate of hemorrhaging; which is exactly what the bowhunter does not want to happen.
The greater the 'tearing effect' of the cutting edge, the more prothrombin released. The more prothrombin released, the more thrombin produced. The more thrombin there is, the more fibrinogen converted to fibrin. The more fibrin, the shorter the clotting time. The shorter the clotting time, the faster the rate of blood loss decreases. The faster the blood loss decreases, the less the total blood loss (per unit of time).
There isn't a highly significant difference when a major vessel is severed. Clotting alone isn't going to seal that off. However, there is credible medical evidence that if the shaft remains in the wound it contributes (applies) direct pressure on the wound. Furthermore, at least according to research by the Royal Academy of Veterinary Surgeons, if the arrow shaft remains in the wound AND the animal continues to move, pressure between shaft and wound is further increased. The combination of the two; direct pressure of the shaft on the wound and shortened clotting time; can result in hemorrhagic sealing, or near-sealing, of even substantial vessels; significantly retarding onset of physiologic shock and ensuing collapse. Sometimes these factors can even prevent the onset of shock and collapse.
Even with a pass-through hit, clotting time does, however, always become a very important factor when only small-diameter vessels have been severed; such as on a 'muscle-tissue only' hit, or a pure gut hit that misses the few major vessels. Recovering an animal after a 'muscle only' hit? Yes, it does sometimes happen, but requires (1) that the bleeding from the capillaries continue unabated and (2) careful and correct follow-up procedures are used.
I'll opt for an edge that's as sharp, smooth and thin as possible.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
With no disrespect to the good Doctor.
I feel I must interpret this data for the unedumacated and fellow Neanderthals, ( I have no opposing thumbs ) :smileystooges:
If you tear the vain or artery there will be microscopic fibers hanging on the inside and out side of the walls, like when you tear a piece of paper into, it leaves a jagged edge, verses cutting it with a sharp pair of scissors, leaving a smooth clean edge.
As the blood rushes out of the vain/artery it is trying to grab onto something to build a dam to stop the bleeding ( aka blood clot).
First one grabs the side, then another and another in just a few seconds thousands have formed a quick dame stopping the bleeding.
If you cut the same vain/artery with a scalpel sharp edge there is nothing for those little things the Doc. told us about to grab onto, thus no clotting, the animals blood pressure drops and it go's unconscious, then bleeds out before it can clot the severed vain/artery.
Doctor Ashby's study :clapper: and just plane-o science trumps opinions and guess work and the "I feel this is better" opinion.
Now I will take a sharp serrated edge over a smooth dull edge any day.
Just my 2cents, be cool David
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smooooth for me.
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No,NO,No, I'm not talking about a sawing motion, NEVER DID, (It always goes back to the same retoric :( ) take a sharp knife without serration and a sharp one with serration,, use only one pass,...than let me know what you found out :bigsmyl:
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First I must say that serrated edges are as sharp as any straight edge I've seen.
Second the serrated edges are mostly very small and do not get hung up as most would think almost to the exaggerated point as when I was a child the teachers would hold a globe in the air and spin the sucker very fast stating this is how fast the world spins allowing gravity to keep us pinned instead of spinning it slowly allowing 24hrs for one rotation or when we were told that our blood is really blue and when it hits the atmosphere it turnes red which we all know now is false.
Serated edges have a different effect then what I've herad explained.
When a broadhead enters an animal, there is a motion of the veins and arteries and mater in it's path much like that of a bow string that's been released and shown in slow motion where the string goes back and forth. The motion of contrcating is what serrated edges thrive on as it gives just alil more room for contraction thus allowing the razor edges of the serated blade to do it by cutting a tightening matter causing it to sorta pop the matter in it's path.
At the Auto show they always to a trick where they ask the audiance what is to fall fater a wedge or pair shape intrying to exlain aerodynamics? The pear always wins. This too with the serrated edge as the tissue matter travels around the staright edge til it hits the low spot of the serrated section and causes and even greater cut due to the tightness of the tissue under contraction. :banghead:
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Kingstaken, are you on the downhill side of a 12 pack? :scared: :scared: :scared:
Bro, I didn't understand anything you said.
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LMAO :knothead:
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:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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While were looking at this, here's something I’ve mentioned before, but is worth tossing out again.
Tension of the tissue against the cutting edge is an important factor in the degree of cut created. Jim is alluding to that as a possible benefit of a smooth-cut but scalloped serrated-profile edge (as opposed to an edge with a burr).
Broadheads tension tissue against the cutting edge in several ways. The wedge of the blade spreads soft tissues, and the wedge of the ferrule spreads them at a right angle to that. Each of these 'spreeding effects' acts to tension soft tissues against the blade's cutting edge.
Now consider the effect when the blade also rotates through the tissues as it penetrates; as the single-bevel heads do. Not only is there the two wedge-effects spreading and tensioning the tissues against the cutting edge, the rotating blade-face is applying lateral pressure against opposing sides of the slice, further spreading the tissue and increasing tissue tension against the edge even more.
This is the reason single-bevel BH's show a cut width through soft tissue is somewhat wider than the blade's width; and ONE of the reasons they lacerate more effectively than double-beveled BH's.
Now, the following is in no way scientific, but we did try single slice cuts on fresh buffalo skin (flesh side) and fresh buffalo meat, using a Spiderco serrated knife and my small 3" blade Case, with its honed and stropped edge. Five of us tried the test (two Game Rangers, a retired engineer, a fellow that brokers high-end used rifles, and myself), with the skin (and meat) laying flat on a table and trying our best to apply even pressure on both blades. In each case, the smooth edged Case sliced markedly deeper. I've done this same test on Hippo hide, which is more the texture of ear cartilage, and the Spiderco's scalloped edge sliced far better in that tissue. The type of tissue makes a difference. But, for fiberous skin and meat, it APPEARS that the smooth, sharp edge slices deeper at approximately even tissue pressure.
That’s a 'for what it's worth'.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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C'mon doc,
I'm trying to make an argument here, and you come out with all this plausible and well reserched facts, ...let those other guys that just repeat what they heard or read do the talking :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
Defenatly agree that a strait edge cut better hide and meat, but I still prefer a serrated edge for the elusive/elastic veins :D
..well I'm on my way to the woods, hopefully I'll get a chance, to put those serrated edge BH to use :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
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I used the steelforce sabertooth broadheads 1 season and took a beautiful 170" whitetail. Shot was 10 yds.through the top of the heart, complete pass through, only ran 70 yds, very disappointed at the amount of blood on the ground. I am now using woodsmans honed and stropped and WOW ,what great blood trails. Smoooth blades for me!
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How much blood in the cavity when you opened it?
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Sorry brother I've never been able to figure out posting pics. I just take the file and drag the corner across the blade so it cuts into it. Not varry deep, a heavy 1/6th of on inch maybe. Try to space the cuts evenly and keep them lined up on the other side. Then shapen as normal. I'm not sure of the science behind it but I would chose to have a smooth blade cut me rather than a scaloped one.
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Cool I'm gonna try it out :thumbsup: