Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: YosemiteSam on January 26, 2018, 12:01:00 PM
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Just for kicks yesterday, I strung up the 30# limbs on my Samick Sage to shoot a few at light poundage. To my dismay, the arrows were shooting slightly faster than my recent board bow (Clay Hayes design) that draws a little over 50#. I switched back and forth between them for several rounds to confirm and even used a clicker strapped on the board bow to make sure I was getting a full draw out of it. It has become obvious that my 30# recurve is a better hunting weapon than my 50# board bow. I was shooting the same 450 grain arrow out of each. I never expected my board bows to perform as well as my recurves at similar draw weights. But to be 20# heavier in draw weight and still marginally slower seems like a bowyer issue.
Guess I'm back to the drawing board to see if I can boost the performance edge a bit more. Figure I'll start with some backset & tip flipping. Any other easy or more obvious ways to boost up the speed angle?
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Something does not seem right here. A bow 20# heavier shooting slower. I have a selfie that has 2" of natural reflex and maybe 1" of set, it seems to lob the arrows at any given distance. It pulls 40# but shoots like a 30# bow. :rolleyes:
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Granted, my recurve puts the back 2-3" past the grip, effectively extending the draw length. The back of a board bow is only about 1" past the grip (bendy-handle), counting the leather wrap. I don't think that's the main advantage but it probably adds an extra bit of draw stroke to the recurve.
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I don't think the claye hayes design is the most efficient you could build. The design seems to be oriented toward getting the new builder to a successful bow. Same thing with the Tim Baker "your first bow" (approximate quote).
one of my 68" glass lam 41# hunting ASLs shoots a 675 grain arrow at 137 fps. My first of RD design at the same 41# shoots the same exact arrow at 156 fps.
Don't kick yourself, it's all about design.
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Check out Bowyer's Bible 4, performance revisited section, if you haven't already.
Excessive mass in the outer limbs is a huge speed robber.
Have you tried a pyramid style board bow? It's an efficient design.
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don't beat yourself up. I've tested lots of bows and have yet to see a wood shoot with a glass bow and you are doing massive extremes...a wood self bow vs a glass recurve. but the funnier thing is if you post a question about killing power most will say that your self bow will take down anything in North America but then turn around and say your recurve is too light to be an effective killing machine lol
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I'm not sure if you are using fast flight, but that added on average 7 fps to my bows. 5% performance increase for just changing the string, sign me up....
And you open up a whole new world when you start backing bows. Check out yellowwoods plain jane bamboo backed hickory. 3" of glued in reflex and good tillering got him over 170 fps. That's way faster than your 30# Samick.
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Originally posted by BMorv:
Check out Bowyer's Bible 4, performance revisited section, if you haven't already.
Excessive mass in the outer limbs is a huge speed robber.
Have you tried a pyramid style board bow? It's an efficient design.
Yes, my first few were all pyramids. No doubt, my last pyramid bow was probably my fastest shooter and it only drew about 40#. But, having learned a few things since then, I'll be trying it again soon.
Thanks for the encouragement. I still think I have a lot to learn. But if I didn't like to struggle, I wouldn't still be hunting either.
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Originally posted by TradBowyer:
but the funnier thing is if you post a question about killing power most will say that your self bow will take down anything in North America but then turn around and say your recurve is too light to be an effective killing machine lol
That thought had crossed my mind as well.
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The fact you see a difference in performance isn't all that surprising to me. Those are two bows at complete ends of the spectrum of energy transfer to an arrow. Just the nature of things. Two different beasts.
Here's a question for you: Were you happy with the way the board bow shot before you made a direct comparison to the Samick? If so, does it really matter?
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Thanks Bmorv for the mention but the guy that taught me self bow making was big into the mass principal so I credit him but I was making medeocre speed bows untill I started paying attention to mass placement and keep in mind Im drawing to 30 in. Thats why I use heavy hunting arrows when I test speed to make it fair but the lever bow in the pic is also a 46 lb self bow thats only slightly reflexed and its hitting 173-175 fps with a 509 grain arrow but it took alot of work to get the last 2-3 fps I actually got the tips to light to the point of starting to bend fourtunatly I heat treated them stiff again those two bows where my 2017 hunting bows https://imgur.com/a/KQ4GA
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Originally posted by jsweka:
Here's a question for you: Were you happy with the way the board bow shot before you made a direct comparison to the Samick? If so, does it really matter?
Can't say that I was totally thrilled with the bow from a hunting standpoint. Shoots okay. There's a lot of hand shock & it's very unforgiving. But I learned a little about bendy handles and rawhide backing, which was why I did the build along in the first place -- to learn something new. Not having flung an arrow at a deer yet, let alone through one, I try not to guess too much about it's effectiveness for hunting. I just figured that if 30# is too light on the recurve, then this one is a no-go for hunting, regardless of the heavier draw weight.
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What wood & length is your bendy ?
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All my wooden bows shoot just as fast as my glass recurves one of which is a Sage, about 6 arrows a minute. So I'm happy.
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Originally posted by Yellowwood:
What wood & length is your bendy ?
It’s a rawhide backed maple at 70” T2T.
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Yellowwood, I’ve seen the mass principle mentioned a lot on PA but not much here. Can you explain the basis of what you learned about it? I think it would help this discussion.
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I love to work with maple it's a great wood I have a couple of maple staves hanging in the shop I got 2 years ago don't feel bad Yosemite my first couple of bows where slugs the first one is still hanging on the wall it was 75 lb and probably doing 125 fps bounced arrows off the target...lol Bmorv I'm more of a fly by the seat kind of guy then technical but the mass principal part that helped me was Steve A & Tim B thoughts on limb mechanics meaning the limbs are doing progressively less work towards the tips I think it was Tim B said put the mass where it's needed and none where not it's a hard topic to cover in a single post I think it boils down to there is a certain amount of wood needed for a given design and if your above that you get a slow bow if your bellow it you get a broke bow and if your just right you get a fast bow, 3 bears principal....lol
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Thinner lighter tips, " less mass ", ='s a faster bow.
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Yep and the upper mid limb to it always surprises me on self bows how much mass is still in the upper mid limb when weighing the bow as you go mass wise that you can take off with out effecting the bend especially with dense woods like osage interesting topic I think squeezing the last FPS is a real balancing act but fun but your really on a tight rope I leave the tips for last because I can usually bail my self out with self bows using heat to stiffen or worst add wood on leaver bows I can usually get a extra 2 fps by putting a 1/4 shim in front of the leaver fades and heat in some minor reflex any reflex in front of the handle even if it's minor really helps with speed and early draw with those R/D you make Roy have to have some good speed with the early draw weight , I would try one if I knew how to tiller one !
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I don't know. All I know is that all wooden bows have been taking game for many millennia. Jawge
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Originally posted by John Malone:
All my wooden bows shoot just as fast as my glass recurves one of which is a Sage, about 6 arrows a minute. So I'm happy.
:laughing:
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Seriously Sam, ive got a #35 Polaris that will smoke my mid #40 and my #50 straight limb red oak wood bows. In a way its depressing but they are two totally different bows. I did the comparison with my #55 sage and my #58 hickory, not as fast. But it will sink the same arrow just as deep in a hay bail so 6 arrows a minute is good enough for me.
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Yeah to each his own. Most bows we make will take down big game with a well placed arrow. I just like tinkering with different designs within my abilities to see if I’m making more efficient changes and getting better at making bows. The cold quick truth lies in the chrono results. I don’t really care if glass bows are faster than mine, I just want my current one to be better than my last one. It’s what makes it exciting for me.
Yeah yellowwood that’s my understanding of mass priciple too. Only have wood where it is needed and no where where it isn’t. Easier said than done. I’ve been playing around with no set tillering also, which goes hand in hand with mass principle.
Try and do most of your work in the inner and mid limbs and leave the outer limbs just thick enough to not bend. Outer limbs only store like 7% of the energy anyway.
All of these theories are easier said than done. Lol.
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That was a good one John. :biglaugh:
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I'm with you Bmorv I just use the Chrono as a guide I'm not trying to make the fastest bow on the block just trying to make the best one I can I would use any bow that shoots 150 fps for hunting dear I think by working on mass on a certain design and ones you find it you can repeat it but I think the bows that have the mass in the right places end up being the most durable and least stressed but I don't think I could ever make a wood bow as fast as my Black Widow recurve but I enjoy getting all I can out of the wood like you say each his own .
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I'm with you guys, after my first attempt at a bow I knew making a bow would be just like shooting one. Hit a pine cone at 30 yrds gotta hit the next one at 31yrds its a never ending quest to be just a lil better than ya were yesterday. That's the fun part for me. I don't own a Chrono so I use my recurves as a comparison.
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My two cents are that a 70" rawhide backed maple bow is a fine, overbuilt, safe bow that will probably last. To compare it to a modern glass recurve is a bit unfair, regardless of weight difference.
You can definitely get closer to glass bow performance if that is your aim. There are very efficient designs that you should try.
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Originally posted by John Malone:
Seriously Sam, ive got a #35 Polaris that will smoke my mid #40 and my #50 straight limb red oak wood bows. In a way its depressing but they are two totally different bows. I did the comparison with my #55 sage and my #58 hickory, not as fast. But it will sink the same arrow just as deep in a hay bail so 6 arrows a minute is good enough for me.
I suppose that I am still using FF string on the Samick so maybe it's more similar to a 35# glass recurve vs 50# overbuilt board bow. I've never doubted the recurve's ability to sink an arrow into game if needed. I've just known it wasn't ideal.
Seems like my mental anchor may be off. I've anchored on 40# recurve speeds as minimum. Sounds like if I anchor on the 50# board bow, then just about all recurves (drawn to 28") are all just extra insurance from a hunting standpoint.
Guess I'll be going back to the pyramid design or at least starting the taper no further than mid limb. So much the better. I like the looks of the pyramid design better anyway.
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Sam, Have you tried going parallel for 6 inches then taper. Roy turned me on to that lay out. Extra wood were ya need it most, less wood were ya don't. That layout shot way better at #43 than my #50 flat bow that I went to an inch past midlimb with, both red oak..' There could have been other factors but they were basically the same bow just started the taper in different spots. Easer to get some weight on it to than the pyramids of the same width.
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Originally posted by John Malone:
Sam, Have you tried going parallel for 6 inches then taper. Roy turned me on to that lay out. Extra wood were ya need it most, less wood were ya don't. That layout shot way better at #43 than my #50 flat bow that I went to an inch past midlimb with, both red oak..' There could have been other factors but they were basically the same bow just started the taper in different spots. Easer to get some weight on it to than the pyramids of the same width.
Haven't tried that yet. I can see that being particularly good for a 1.5" wide board.
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I was talking about a true pyramid. Like 2" at the fades straight taper to tiny tips, about 3/8", circular tiller, thin the last 7" while leaving it just stiff enough not to bend much. It puts the mass where you want it. That's if you wanted to stick with a board bow.
Maybe Scifres can suggest an efficient design. He knows what he's talking about (a lot more than me).
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Yea I forgot to mention all my stuff was around 1.5 wide. That's just what lowes had. I personally don't like the looks of a 2inch wide pyramid but one day I will make one. I heard they were great if done right.
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I just saw this thread... Pretty interesting...
The first two bows I made were a 30# and a 50# oak self bows... My 30# bow kept bouncing arrows off the target... I got me a chrony and the 50# was shooting at 150fps... I bought out this old 40# solid fiberglass bow that I had since I was a kid and it shot 160fps... Ever since then there was a need for speed and I have been building fiberglass laminate bows... Its gonna be hard to beat glass with wood... Comparing two glass bows it's about efficiency... Like you said, putting the mass in the right spots...
I had an argument with my buddy... He said a heavier draw bow would always shoot faster than a lighter draw bow... I said he was wrong... I said it was how the bow was built... Needless to say, he thought I was full of chit... I said bring your bow over... To make a long story short... He had a 50# PSE long bow... I had my 42# long bow... Both were glass laminate bows... We shot 410 gr. arrows... His bow shot 170fps and mine shot 190 fps... Even with a heavier arrow mine was still faster... It's hard enough making a glass bow fast I can't even imagine trying to soup up an all wood bow... That would take some doing and it would be hard to be consistent...
If you want to set your goals high on an all wood bow there was a guy on the wtt 3 contest on POA that did pretty good... I think he was shooting in the high 170's at 10gpp... I think he had a boo backed bow...
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I've never really concerned myself with speed. I'd read TBB4 - the design and the mass principle chapters and TBB1 - the design chapter and you can go from there.
My fastest bows are sinew backed shorties but they don't have great shooting manners.
Something with good wood (read that as osage), a flat belly, and narrowed, lever tips (static recurves or molle/holmegard) in the 62" range would be my all-around choice.
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Souping up a wood bow, I like it. I love my glass recurves and will never give them up. but when thinking of making my own bow wood is the only material that interest me. When I was younger I was the guy who liked passing mustangs and Camaros in a primer gray 72 international pickup truck, had it modified and shoved a 426 from a totaled coronet down in there courtesy of my uncle the mechanic. Damn I miss that truck.
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Check out Marc St Louis on PA and find his website if you’re interested in all wood bows and speed. I don’t think he makes bows that shoot under 170 fps. I need a drool rag when I look at his builds.
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For me, it’s less about getting max speed so much as adequate speed. A 20-yard or even 15-yard Point-on is no concern to me so long as it comes from a heavy arrow. It has less to do with trajectory & FPS and more to do with hunting ethics & knowing I can still poke 2 holes in a critter.
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I made a bendy Hickory bow a while back that shot a 520 grain arrow at only 152 fps with B50 and I skiped a arrow off the bag and it blew threw both sides of my back pvc fence door and landed in the back yard all though my wife wasn't happy it convenced me it would blow threw a White tail !
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I hear you Yosemite. Just for clarification, all of the speeds that I mention are with at least 10 gpp arrows. Anything less than that you aren't replicating a hunting situation, so it doesn't matter to me. Who cares how fast you can shoot a toothpick.
One thing I don't believe was talked about much on this thread is minimizing set. The 1st 3 bows I made are all sluggish, and they have one thing in common: they all took 2+ inches of set. They don't necessarily have bad tillers either (well not all of them). Something that Mikkeekeswick said in one of his post was "keep thinking fresh belly wood". That stuck in my mind for some reason. I now make sure that I have a nice even bend with no weak spots before I stress the wood. So on the long string or floor tiller stage you want to have a bend that is really close to what it's going to look like when it's done, before you bring it to brace. If you bring it to brace too early you could have already induced irreversible set that won't go away even if you fix the tiller later in process. I didn't pick up on those concepts on my 1st few. I believe almost any design built with little set will perform to the expectations you mentioned. Check out "no set tillering" by Badger on PA if you want to take it a step further.
Sorry if you already know this information. I'm just trying to help as I've been there.
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Good point Bmorv. I learned that quick, think my first had 3 inches at least.
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I noticed the ones that end up the best performing and the least amount of set are the ones that require very little tiller after high brace in other words the ones that are 90 % tillered at brace the thing I do that not everybody agrees with is I never hold a bow drawing at any length for more then a few seconds, backed bows you can probably get away with it a little more but self bows seems to induce set but each his own thats just how I do it I try to minimise any stress on the wood tell it bends right .
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Originally posted by BMorv:
I hear you Yosemite. Just for clarification, all of the speeds that I mention are with at least 10 gpp arrows. Anything less than that you aren't replicating a hunting situation, so it doesn't matter to me. Who cares how fast you can shoot a toothpick.
One thing I don't believe was talked about much on this thread is minimizing set. The 1st 3 bows I made are all sluggish, and they have one thing in common: they all took 2+ inches of set. They don't necessarily have bad tillers either (well not all of them). Something that Mikkeekeswick said in one of his post was "keep thinking fresh belly wood". That stuck in my mind for some reason. I now make sure that I have a nice even bend with no weak spots before I stress the wood. So on the long string or floor tiller stage you want to have a bend that is really close to what it's going to look like when it's done, before you bring it to brace. If you bring it to brace too early you could have already induced irreversible set that won't go away even if you fix the tiller later in process. I didn't pick up on those concepts on my 1st few. I believe almost any design built with little set will perform to the expectations you mentioned. Check out "no set tillering" by Badger on PA if you want to take it a step further.
Sorry if you already know this information. I'm just trying to help as I've been there.
Love that toothpick line!
No apologies needed. I'll check it out. I know a fair amount about some things. But building well-constructed bows ain't one of them. I have a lot to learn so I appreciate the pointers & references.