Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: John Malone on December 12, 2017, 09:10:00 AM
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Well Guys I killed my red oak bow. Everything was good until I decided to make the cut in shelf a "little bigger" it threw the tiller way off. I can save it but it will end up 30# maybe.
So now I have a 1.5 by 1 inch piece of hickory with really nice grain and will save it for a self bow in the future. Also have a piece of hickory backing 1/8 I'm going to back a piece of red oak with. I will be making a basic pyramid design shoot off the knuckle no frills. 70 inch ttt going for 50-55# or so.
If I make the handle area 1 inch wide and it comes in at 50-55# that's a half inch from center, do you think ill be able to tune either a full length 500 or 400 spined arrow to the bow or will I need new arrows. I don't have much experience with this style of bow always shot recurves cut close to or past center. I really don't want to buy more arrows.
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I'm assuming your 400 to 500 arrows are carbon. I'm not saying you can't shoot carbon from a wood bow but it is a mismatch to me. :nono:
It doesn't matter whether a bow is center shot or not any bow can be accurate with properly spined arrows. Trying to get any arrow to shoot well is the wrong way to go. IMO I know nothing about carbon arrows. Buy a set of wood shafts spined 5# to 10# less than your draw weight and tune them to the bow.
I've made hunting weight selfbows that were as narrow as 3/4" at the arrow pass. As long as the fades and handle area are thick enough there shouldn't be a problem. Make the transition between handle and fade a smooth transition, thickness and width, rounding all the corners and edges and if you want a shelf, add one made from wood(a golf tee split in half), antler leather or cork.
Generally when a person cuts a shelf into the handle/fade area they make abrupt cuts that weaken the bow in an area that gets the most strain because of the leverage of the limbs.
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Thanks Pat, Some nice wood arrows are my end goal but for now I'm just concentrating on becoming a better bowyer ill work on arrow smithing next. Just wondering if I will be able to shoot what I have for now. First I'm going to make this bow and see what I end up with and go from there. I have committed to following a basic build with no considerations for what I want other than basic length and approximate weight. Until I find out what I end up with I cant even consider choosing the correct arrows anyway.
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Ill do pics this time although I only figured out how to post a link and not the actual pic itself.
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Perhaps I am overly simplifying this, but I shoot whatever arrows I have...now shooting god groups might be a different issue.
I NEVER shoot carbon arrows off the hand as they tend to splinter when they break. Nasty stuff in your hands.
I see you are using a shelf so you should be ok until you get a proper matching set of arrows.
Make the bow first and then match the arrows to the bow.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays
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You should be able to tune those arrows to your bow if it ends up anywhere near your intended design. With full length arrows and different weight points and/or weighted inserts, you have a broader range than those charts on the arrow box would have you believe.
Long bows like a heavy arrow, and 10 grains per pound is a good start. You can always add weight tubes if your tuned arrows come out too light. They don't affect spine much.
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Thanks guys, no shelf on this one I guess you could call it a Hill style handle. Harbor Freight has a sale going today, got some Pittsburgh 6 inch bar clamps for 2.99 a piece bought 8 of them can never have to many clamps.
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I have (and do) shoot all arrow material types out of self bows without a cut in shelf. As already mentioned, you need to match your arrow spine to the bow. The 500 should work fine out of a bow you described. I would leave them full length and start with 150 grain head and see how it shoots. Go from there.
BTW - I also prefer wood arrows out of wood bows, but it is just a personal preference - they shoot no better nor worse than other materials.
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Don't mind this, almost got the picture thing fellows.
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(https://i.imgur.com/1VRPdGgl.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/j6bHhuCl.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/Ly13sVOl.jpg)
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I got the picture thing figured out! Those pics are of the hickory backed oak pyramid I'm doing. If your looking for a build along I'm not the one to follow, as I'm flowing some one else. The one pic is of how I taper limbs with a hand plane and a shooting board very, simple and extremely accurate. I highly recommend it to anyone who has a good plane but doesn't have or doesn't want to use table saws or band saws. It allows you total control one tiny sliver at a time down the entire length of the taper. Once you get close you can switch over to my giant sanding block, again lots of control a lil at a time.
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Ok guys here is what I'm thinking for the handle riser area. 10 inch riser 4 inch handle center and 3 inch fades. One inch wide at handle tapering out for two inches last one inch of fade full width but fairly thin by that point. Any suggestions? This bow will be 70 ttt 1.5 inches at widest. The handle is 1.75 inches deep
(https://i.imgur.com/rU6hpEXm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8e5V8AJm.jpg)
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You will be safe with those dimensions but a few comments. Are you saying the handle overlay is 1.75" thick? That's pretty thick. I normally shoot for overall from the back to the deepest contour of the handle to be 1.75". You would only need a 1.75" overlay if you like the look or want a heavily contoured handle section. If you plan on cutting in an arrow rest I would go a little thicker than 1" wide. If you are shooting off the knuckle or adding a rest after you should be fine with 1" wide.
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Shooting off the knuckle with this one, may add a piece of leather or something. The handle area will be 1.75 thick measured from back of bow like yours, don't plan on putting much contour in it. I'm using oak for the riser but I have a beautiful piece of eastern red cedar you think that's to soft or could that work?
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I wouldn't trust cedar unless it's a pretty light weight bow, and even then I would go thicker and wider in the handle section.
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Ill stick with the oak.
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Another question before I start gluing the riser. The oak belly is 7/16 thick, the hickory backing is 3/16 thick should I run this through the planer and take the backing down to 1/8 or leave it like it is? Reason I ask is my limited experience tells me that its way to thick to bend at the tips and mid limb starting at 1.5 and tapering to 3/8 so I will end up removing some belly material and have read that hickory can over power woods like oak which are weaker in compression. Id like to end up with as much draw weight as I can get using what I have. The backing was only 1.5 wide to start so you know.
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Yeah, that's why you don't see many bamboo or hickory backed red oak bows, they can easily overpower the oak.
I don't have much experience with hickory backing, as I use bamboo, so maybe someone else with chime in.
I think you'll have to do some thickness tapering with 1.5" wide. The pyramid red oak bows that require little thickness taper start at around 2" wide or more and taper to less than .5" at the tips.
Floor tiller the bow after you cut out the width profile, and you should be able to get an idea if you are starting out too thick, and see where it's bending.
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Thanks BMorv. Seems like I remember reading a post that told some one to go 1/16 on the hickory. But I cant find it or remember who gave the advice. For some reason I'm thinking its awful thick.
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I'm pretty sure that most guys keep hickory or maple backing 1/8" or less.
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I believe you are correct.
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Took it down to 3/32
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Glued on a riser, maybe 1/32 over hang on the sides.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZTFapOVm.jpg)
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Just thinking ahead, I have a ton of rattan out in the shop I use for chair backs and bottoms. They use that to wrap all kinds of handles, it might look nice on a bow handle instead of leather. You have to soak that stuff so its pliable enough to work with and as it dries it shrinks like rawhide does. That would clamp around the handle area like a vice, couldn't hurt anything. Anyone ever try that. Looks nice on a fly rod.
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I always love seeing pics of people's woodworking space. It's like a good kitchen or a campfire. We need no explanation to understand what to do there. I'm certainly no master chef, storyteller or woodworker. But I think those spaces are deeply wired into our DNA at this point.
Getting inspired to start on my next board bow, too.
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Couldn't agree more Sam, my shop is desperate need of cleaning.
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My Stanley 220 circa 1910ish its 117 years old give or take and still works like new. Now that's ALL AMERICAN right there fellows.
(https://i.imgur.com/iu9bmQ7m.jpg)
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Decided to taper the belly a little bit as I could tell straight of it was stiff on the mid and outer limbs. Going to make a new long string then see were I'm at.
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Should I cut the handle area out before I start tillering?
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Get the fade areas nice and feathered to the limbs as you don't want any surprises if you do it later.
It's easier to keep the bow in the tiller cradle if the handle edges are square.
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Gotcha BMorv. I left some meat on the belly so I could do that, ive feathered it in, the last two I done were a pain because I had a heck of time keeping them level and still so this time I left the handle square. Just wondering when the best time to cut that out is.
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(https://i.imgur.com/KAlY3MRm.jpg)
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BMorv are you a Morvant? I knew some Morvants from La. Beauregard parish area. Matter of fact I think i knew a Bret or Brent Morvant but that was 35 years ago.
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Well I ordered the Tbb complete set but #2 is on back order. Maybe I wont need it for awhile. I've ordered from 3rivers 3 times in the last month and a half, those guys are fast. Put an order in on Thursday I get it Monday, even the one I placed on thanksgiving day.
I went over board with the wood removal on this one AGAIN. So I stopped and regrouped. Impatience isn't usually my down fall. These last three attempts have taught me one thing if nothing else. The difference between a 50# and a 40# draw weight can be 1/32 of an inch on one board and 1/16 on another.
So I'm just going to laminate a piece of oak to the back of this one, hickory oak and oak. That will put me back to a 5/8 thickness and we will try again.
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Sorry man, I usually disconnect from the internet (and the rest of the world) over the weekend.
Yep, it's Benton Morvant. I'm in Lafourche Parish. My great grandpa and his brother came over from France to my area. They each had 15 children, so we populated south Louisiana pretty quickly. Hahaha.
Yeah, read all that you can on bow building. TBB is a great reference. There's some conflicting information in there, but overall it's a great base to start with. If you have volume 1 and 4, immediately after you read the performance part on volume 1, read performance revisited in volume 4. They changed their viewpoint a lot from 1 to 4.
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Never been to Lafourche parish that I remember? Been through the Naw lens area many times but don't remember much of it. To many side trips down Bourbon street and all through the French quarter. Which reminds me I'm down to one can of tonys got to get online and order some, kinda hooked on that Cajun food.
Those books should be here soon looking forward to reading them.
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Put it back on the tree tomorrow, hope she tillers and shoots as good as I think she looks. Only a 1/4 inch of the handle is ERC. Its 1 5/8 all together.
(https://i.imgur.com/Bcp4FN8m.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/N1dJkr7m.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CLeX8iAm.jpg)
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That looks a whole lot better. :thumbsup:
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Wont matter if she don't shoot LOL. I prettied up the handle area because I wanted to give that glue on the limbs 24 hours clamp time and another 24 cure time before I started stressing it. We shall see today.
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Looks nice.
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It does look nice but it also looks like the plane of the belly is the same plane of where the riser is glued to. This can lead to the handle area bending, if only slightly and this will cause the riser to pop off.
I like starting off with a 3/4" belly lam and reducing to about 5/8" so the riser and belly are not on the same plane, so the fades go down into the belly lam placing it above the belly plane. I hope that makes sense. If I had my picks back I'd show you what I mean.
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Thanks Pat, I understand the concept now that you've pointed it out. Hopefully ill get my books in the next day or so, cant find much online.
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The bow is braced at 1 inch and I pulled it down to 20 inches I think (close). Does it need a more circular bend? Say more bend in the tips and mid limb. Ive been working it slowly all day. After what Pat B said I'm only shooting for #45 or so, may still blow up but I'm having fun so what the hell. Its 70 inches ttt pyramid
(https://i.imgur.com/Uie0Ldvm.jpg)
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I thinned the tips on down to 5/16 took a lil of the belly, pulls 39 at 25 inches.
(https://i.imgur.com/ksIwHBTm.jpg)
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Little bit better pic.
(https://i.imgur.com/Qol0OsAm.jpg)