Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Trenton G. on December 02, 2016, 04:12:00 PM
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Hi everyone.
I'm starting to build a D/R bow from the 64" plans that Kenny was generous enough to share. He's been very helpful in helping me thus far in building the form, etc. Anyways, I'm getting closer to actually building the bow, so I figured that I would start a topic. I'm bound to do something wrong at some point, so hopefully you guys can catch some of the mistakes for me. LOL
Here is my riser, pretty boring, but I lack the skill for a more intricate riser as of right now. I know in the plans that it says the tips will be slightly off of the form. I was just wondering if these are to far off. I followed the templates and all and this is what came out. Thanks for your help guys!
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1318_zps1qx8tsfu.jpg)
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Well Trenton you've got a good start because you are correctly calling it a D/R instead of incorrectly calling it a R/D. Looks good
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Your riser looks great! Don't worry about your fades being off the form that is normal. You may have to touch up your back radius because you don't have your laminations under it and it will have a small gap between your lams and riser. It won't be bad though... great start so far!
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Looking good. That will be a very pretty riser, I like riser that aren't to busy and gaudy.
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Yep, be sure to dry run it(no glue) to check for gaps anywhere.
Looks like you have marks at 1 and 2 " from end. The pic looks like the 2" may be a bit thick, but not sure. I make mine a little over 1/8" (.140")there and 1/16" at one inch from end.
That riser will surprise you when you shoot finish on it!
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Be real careful with the fades, you can break those off real easy.
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Looks nice, Trenton! You are off to a good start!
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Thanks guys.
Kenny, yeah, I think that they are a bit thick. I'm a little gun shy about thinning the tips down so much since in the last bow I some how got the riser really unsquare. I'm just afraid of doing it again. I'll thin them down some more though.
I was told to use epoxy to put my Formica strip on the bottom of the form. I've heard that reheating epoxy is bad, so how will this hold up once I put it all in the oven? I guess it wouldn't be a big deal if it came off after the bow was cured, but just curious.
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Trento I used smoothon to glue an aluminum strip to my form and it holds well just to be on the safe side let the form and bow cool down before letting off the pressure.
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I've used EA-40 to glue glass to the form, never a prob. Guess the bow is holding it til it cools anyway!
A trick on the fades with a spindle sander if keep flipping the riser over so if the drum is off slightly, you end up with equal sides, then a curved sanding block and a few strokes(carefully) to work the center down a bit.
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x3
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I have always used contact cement to attach Formica and glass to forms with no problems. Once you coat both surfaces and let it set for 30 minutes it goes on and stays on with no pressure needed while it cures.
Last time I ordered a Formica strip from Bingham I also ordered 4 strips of clear glass. When the order arrived, no Formica! But, there were 5 strips of clear glass. :confused: called Bingham and they said that one of those strips was Formica. Told them they were all definitely clear glass. Oh no they says, look at them and you will see that one of them has a sticker on it that says "Formica". Sure enough the sticker was there. :biglaugh:
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The same thing happened to me. I couldn't figure out why I had three strips of clear glass until I noticed the sticker. It was nice of them to send clear, it shows the plywood underneath very nicely LOL
I am only able to work on this bow during the week, and only about 45 minutes a day, which really slows down the process, but I will work on thinning everything up tomorrow.
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I have used contact cement on all my forms and everything is still holding strong after 20 trips through the oven.
You can see in my riser below how think the fades get. If you hold them up to the light even with dark wood you should be able to see through them. I made a cradle (sort of speak) out of cut offs and scrap wood which helps with sanding everything by hand for touch ups. Get your bottom radius perfect and then thin everything out on the belly side of the fades. That's what I would do at least.
(http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x344/bowhntineverythingnh03743/EAE33C75-5ECA-4635-9F6D-AF2BA91BBF93.jpg) (http://s1177.photobucket.com/user/bowhntineverythingnh03743/media/EAE33C75-5ECA-4635-9F6D-AF2BA91BBF93.jpg.html)
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As a rule of thumb, there should be about 1/16" thickness 1" from end of the fade... looks good but I like having a solid piece of wood in the fade area... It makes sanding consistency easier and that is a high stress area where I prefer a solid piece of wood... Just like in pic before my post...
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Like others said you will have to thin your riser fades, long and thin.. They will need to bend down to the form with out breaking. You might need to add a 040 parallel ( tapered at each end) running about 1 1/2 inch past the end of each fade, kind of like a powerlam..that will help take some pressure off the end of your riser
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I have only used "3M High Strength 90" spray adhesive to glue fiberglass botuff strips and reverse tapers (if needed) to my form tops. It has worked very well, is high heat rated and sets up fast... it's about $13 for a spray can so it's not cheap..
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Thanks for the help guys, I got the riser tips thinned up quite a bit now. I'm going to try and do a dry run either today or tomorrow, so I'm getting everything ready. If I'm using the 62/64 inch bow form, how long should I cut the pieces of fiberglass that are going on top?
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I don't know..I always cut pieces long..for a 64" KennyM longbow I would cut the back glass and spliced tapers 68"..you can cut the belly glass and belly lams 34" ..then when you do the dry run you can mark the side of the stack. Then cut all pieces at the marks..record the lengths for your next build.
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One reason I like to cut pieces long is this,.. I like to mark the very ends of the pieces with a pencil R for right side lams and L for left side lams, R1 for first lam, R2 for second lam, etc, you can mark them in the same spot,then when you glue up the R or L should be visable..if not it's either backwards or upside down.. , you grind away the corners when you shape the limbs so why not..I know of a very experienced bowyer who just flipped a taper backwards in a limb..so it can happen to anyone.
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I always cut my material 2 inches longer. That way if something slips you still have enough to fix. I have had it all happen to me before and I've learned that not cutting it exactly at the finished length is important.
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Hey guys, sorry for all the dumb questions, but I've got another one. Should I cut my pressure strip in half so that it curves up the riser and stops, or should I leave it one piece and have it run all the way across?
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yes cut it
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I cut mine.
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(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt46/Robertfishes/firstlongbowdryrun.jpg) (http://s596.photobucket.com/user/Robertfishes/media/firstlongbowdryrun.jpg.html) Make sure you do a dry run, pic is of a dry run..thats why there is no plastic protecting the form and air hose.... I like to shine a bright light on my form and really look closely for any gaps where the fades end and under the riser. I keep 2 extra ready to glue up risers handy in my shop..just in case I break or damage the fragile fades during glue up..one is Brown Actionwood the other is curly maple with red and black glass..they might not match perfect but I dont think I can regrind the fades quick enough to fix original riser..
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I did my dry run today and everything looked good. No gaps or anything. I left the pressure stop in on pier since I hadn't had any replies yet when I did it. It didn't seem to cause any issues with anything. I'm planning on glueing everything up on Thursday.
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Trenton,
Some suggestions for your first glue up. Make sure your form has some sort of stops along each edge like Robertfishes picture. I even go so much as to glue some along the ends so that nothing can slide down your fades and cause any other issues there. Wax down your form, I use turtle wax, lay down a layer of plastic wrap before putting the glued up bow onto the form. Lay another peice over the top of the bow before putting the top form on. I use the zip tie method to keep everything together and then cut them after adding half the air pressure into the hose. I drilled the holes for the zip ties at the mid point on the fades, at mid limb, and then close to the tips. I also tape it down as well. I have had many lams slide on me during my first couple glue ups that I take all the precautions I can now.
Just a few friendly tips so that your first one comes out great and you have no unforseen issues.
Best of luck and post pictures!
Justin
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show us a picture of your form.
wrap you pressure strip too.
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Here's a picture of my form. I've got the two clamps, is that enough for the side to side motion?
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1322_zpsqnen7dng.jpg)
Here is the dry run. The laminations slid apart a bit on the bottom, but I will glue the ends together before I glue up the whole bow. There were no gaps that I could find. I held a flashlight on the other side and couldn't see any light coming through.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1327_zpsr6nmgbww.jpg)
Thanks for the tips bowhntineverything. I've done one laminated bow before, so I'm not totally new to this, but it's the first time that I've made my own form. I'm glad you mentioned the wax, I completely forgot about that step.
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I normally splice the lams that go on the back of the riser that way nothing can slip apart. I use lots of packing tape to hold everything in place and have (touch wood!) never had anything move.
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I would add 3/8" or 1/2" plywood spacers between the form and metal straps. I prefer to have 4 metal straps on my forms. On the form pic I posted you can see I used "Mending Plates" and drilled the holes out to 3/8". I like to use 0.7 mil thick painters plastic on top of form, arround pressure hose and arround pressure strip. I buy the plastic for $5 for 5 rolls so it's pretty cheap..and one roll will do 5 bows. The form pic I posted has side washers on it to hold lams from slipping side ways..I started using wood blocks faced with frog tape for side stops 3 or 4 years ago.
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You need more straps and spacer blocks behind them on your form. The blocks keep the hose from being interfered when inflated. Like this one
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/crookedstic/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-12/20161204_125953_zpsos7r7hlp.jpg)
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I used to wax the pressure strip, form sides and form top..I now put frog tape down on the fiberglass form top, then a piece of plastic, I cut the plastic to width with Fiskars shop scissors before unfolding it..nothing wrong with wax it's just that I starting getting paranoid about getting wax on my laminations during the glue up..
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Thanks guys. I will make some blocks today and put them on the form between the metal straps. Unfortunately, I only have two of the straps, but I'll see if I can dig up a few more.
I guess I forgot to add that I'm using zebrawood veneers under clear glass, with hard maple tapers. Also, the packing strips that they sent with my lams turned out to be curly maple. Not sure if that was an accident or not, but I'm definitely not going to let those got to waste!
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I like zebrawood veneers. Places like home depot and lowes will have the mending plates, get the 12" long ones x 1 1/8" wide and at least 1/8" thick
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I added two more straps and glued the bow up this evening. I hate this part. im always worried that something is going to slip out of place. I just hope that it turns out lol
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Good luck buddy!!
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Good luck! Hope all turns out well!
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The bow came out well from what I can tell. Now I just need to remove the huge globs of dried epoxy. Right now I'm using a dead blow hammer and chisel to remove most of the bigger pieces, then taking it to the belt sander. Is there a better way to remove all of the junk?
The last bow that I built, I was told to put glue on all gluing surfaces, even if the two surfaces touch. Is that right? I've gotten a ton of excess glue squeezing out on my bows, and when I look at pics on here, it looks like you guys don't have half as much squeeze out as I do.
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Dont use that hammer and chisel!.. You can do some damage.. Just grind it off... Take it as slow as necessary, and keep your limb edges parallel to the riser block. Then find your center line.
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Do what Jeff said!!
You will have less squeeze out as you build more bows. Always want some tho.
Tip: After you get the plastic on form and the plastic on top of bow and get it squeezed, take a scrap lam and wipe the squeeze down off the edge of bow. It stays between the 2 pcs of plastic, but isn't attached to bow anymore, and you can just tear it off with plastic and not grind it off....
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Ok guys, thanks for the help!
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We like to apply shrink wrap to the bottom form from end to end.. Then place your stack layup on the pre-wrapped form. A little strapping tape here or there as needed will hold everything in place.
Once everything is alighed, we wind shrink wrap over the bottom form and stack all again. This creates just enough pressure to keep everything in the right place through the remaining pressure up and hot box bake.
Like Kenny says, if you "gently" apply a little wipe of the epoxy after pressure up, it will end up as a very thin feathered edge of hard epoxy. The good news is it's captured by the shrink wrap layers, and chips off very easily when you remove the plastic wrap.
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/lightmansa/BOW%20SHOP/IMG_3426.jpg) (http://s150.photobucket.com/user/lightmansa/media/BOW%20SHOP/IMG_3426.jpg.html)
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I just cut a piece of visqueen about 8 inches wide and 8 inches longer than the limb. Get the limb glued up with tape on each side and then wrap the entire limb in the visqueen prior to putting it in the form/ Works great for me and keeps everything really clean/ I also have drilled holes in the form and once the limb is in place I use about 6 12 in. zip ties and zip tie the limb to the form. The zips go around everything but the hose. Layup goes like this. heat strip to the form, formica pressure strip, Limb, pressure strip, heat tape , pressure strip., The add zips , next is air hose and top of form./ Air up to 15 lb or so. let set a bit ,. Cut loose zips and pull them all. The air up in 10 lb progressions to 55/ I also use the fender washers on the sides. six per side and two large ones to catch the overlays and wedge ends holding the riser together . I cook the overlays together with the longbows and one piece curves.
God bless and Merry Christmas to all, Steve
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Thanks or all the help guys. I put down the hammer and chisel and spent a while at the belt sander instead. Everything came off nice and parallel. I'm noticing a few gaps in the riser section which have me concerned. When I did my dry run, there were no gaps so I'm not sure where these came from. Should I just fill them with epoxy? I'll try and post some pictures at some point.
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The gaps may or may not grind off during shaping. Make sure what they amount to before drawing it tho.
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I think that most of them will be gone once I cut the sight window and shape the grip a bit more. If any of them don't go away, I am planning on just filling them with epoxy like I did last year.
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Here it is so far guys. I got it all cleaned up and cut the limb tapers.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1334_zps4u8ndqsx.jpg)
How thick of a piece of phenolic do you guys generally use on your tips?
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Looking good, I use 2 pcs of 1/16 and a pc of riser wood for color on top of it. The thin phenolic will conform to curve in limb without fitting to it by grinding .
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Ok, thanks Kenny. I ordered 1/8 inch, but for some reason they sent me 1/4 inch thick phenolic. I took some double sided tape, attached the pieces to the square end of a board, then took them over to the belt sander and thinned them down. Not sure if that's the conventional way of doing it, but it seemed to work lol.
When I received my lams, the packing strips that they sent me were curly maple, so I cut some pieces off and glue them to my phenolic. Hopefully it turns out well.
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So I'm finally getting a chance to keep going on this bow, but I ran into a bit of an issue today. I was cleaning up a small bit of glue that I had missed, but when I sanded it away, I discovered a small gap. I went to the other side of the bow, sanded a little, and discovered a matching gap. I can't see any light through it, but I'm not sure exactly how deep they go. What has me worried is that these gaps are right at the edge of my fades. I don't know why there are gaps there since there was nothing during my dry run. I'm thinking about just filling the gaps with epoxy, but wanted to see what you guys thought. I'll try and get some pictures of it at some point.
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Here's the gap I was talking about. Like I said, I can't tell how far it goes, but there's a matching gap on the other side. What do you guys think?
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1362_zps81lfvyvs.jpg)
Sorry for the fuzzy pic.
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Did the end grain of your accent slurp up the glue there?
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I'm not really sure. It may have.
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Is there a dark lam where the hole is or is that in the riser?
and is the light colored area to right of hole an accent or a light streak in riser?
I think you have plenty of fade to go ahead and fix it. I would make some sawdust from a riser scrap and stir it in the EA 40 for color . Keep the glue thin enuff to get a good fill on it, you can put a pc of tape on the other side from where you fill.
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There isn't a dark lam. The hole appears to be between the riser tip and the lams. The light is a maple accent stripe in the riser.
Thanks for the tip, I'll fill the gaps tomorrow. This shouldn't affect the bow as far as it being safe to shoot right?
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Them is all that dark part above the hole glue in a gap or riser fade? Not sure I'm seeing it clear.
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Trenton and Kenny,
Let me see if I can help.
Everything between the white lines is glue line. Red lines depict different riser wood lines.
If my eyes are seeing correctly.
(http://i.imgur.com/jpTjBQZ.jpg)
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Sorry Kenny, I know it's not a great pic. I took it on my iPod, and it looked clear on that tiny screen, but not here lol.
Bvas, I'm pretty sure that's correct. I'm tempted to sand a bit more away to see if the gap goes all the way up. I sure hope that it doesn't.
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Its hard to figure out what is going on... Maybe try zooming out on your pic a bit...
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Sorry guys, I'll try and get some better pictures tomorrow.
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It looks like it wasn't clamped well. The glue line is very wide, and there is a void of unknown size.
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I'm not sure why it didn't clamp properly, during my dry run everything was tight with no gaps anywhere.
Here is a picture that is hopefully a bit clearer.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1367_zpsuhv5g79n.jpg)
Here is a picture to show you the hole relative to the riser
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1368_zpspkcjipgo.jpg)
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That is a gap! I can see now, you have a large gap at riser end and the riser to lam line if pretty thick too. Almost looks like you lost pressure after glue up.
I'm not sure how that much glue will hold up over time. If it were me, I would finish it and shoot it with some precautions. Cup , coat, helmet, good eye protection. Never let any body else have it.
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I agree with Kenny.
I'd be very nervous shooting that bow.
My honest opinion (and I'm not saying this to be mean or anything) is that I would cut in half and make a fancy fire poker for around camp, or a walking stick out of it. The two best fire pokers I ever owned came from bows that didn't quite become bows. One was a hickory backed ipe I attempted and the other was a takedown Hill style bow that Conopyboy was building for last year's swap and it failed on him. Conopyboy's bow now resides in my pop-up camper and is the greatest fire poker at the Eastern Traditional Archery Rendezvous (ETAR) ;)
You build enough bows, you're bound to have some that don't turn out. No big deal. Happens to all of us.
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Yep, I have a couple(?) in the shop to remind me ......
But I would finish it whether you shoot it or not, you will learn stuff by shaping the handle and limbs.
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Ok, thanks guys. That's sort of what I was afraid of. I was really hoping that this one would turn out since I don't know when/if I'll ever get to make another one. I'm heading off to college next fall so I doubt I'll have much free time to do this stuff.
I'll still finish it out just for the experience. Maybe shoot it once while wearing all my old baseball catchers gear lol. I like the fire poker idea. My family camps a lot so maybe that will be the route I go. Anyways, thanks for all of your help, I really appreciate it. I'll post some pictures when I finish and decide what it's fate will be.
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All I can think is that the riser did not seat in the form correctly or like Kenny said, You lost pressure after glue up...
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Hey guys,
It's been quite a while since I updated this, so I'll try and catch up. Unfortunately I don't have the skill to whip through these like most of you can, but I'm working at it slowly but surely. I would have had this done much sooner, but I am building it in my high school shop class. It's hard to get much done with 30 other people running around the shop at the same time. Aside from that, the shop catching fire also put a halt on my work for a few weeks. Now I'm back at it and am pretty close to putting on a finish. Bear with me, I am not very good at this and this is only the second bow that I've done. My craftsmanship is definitely not the greatest.
I filled the gap near the fades with epoxy by using a syringe. It seemed to work well. When I put a string on it, I slowly worked it back little by little without any odd sounds. I've since then shot it (the first few times with safety glasses and helmet) and had no issues. I also realized that during the glue up, my riser must have slid just a tiny bit. Unfortunately, this made one the limbs fairly unbalanced. You'll be able to see in the pictures. Despite all this, it shoots well and hits right where I'm looking. I am now in the process of finishing the riser shaper. When I put the bow on a scale, it came out 56@28, which is right where I wanted it. (Thanks kennym for help with the stack). Anyways, here's some pictures. Sorry for the poor picture quality.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1438_zpsr14tp5qa.jpg)
As you can see in this picture, I made the bottom overlay to thin and sanded through to the glass. I have since then sanded the rest off just to make it look even.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1440_zpsegxni162.jpg)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/FullSizeRender_zps7vpm4pot.jpg)
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Finished this bow up today. After surviving a shop fire and my lack of woodworking skills, I'm convinced that this bow has nine lives. The riser is walnut, maple, and mahogany. The limbs hard hard rock maple core with zebra wood veneers. It came out 54@28, which is perfect. I put it through the chronograph and was getting an average of 168fps shooting a 525 grain arrow. Thanks to everyone who helped out in this thread and especially to Kennym for generously providing the plans for this bow. I really appreciate it!
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1579_zpsyskptymb.jpg)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1578_zpspziigq5y.jpg)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1575_zpstnxghdjk.jpg)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1574_zpstbewid6v.jpg)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/trentongiem/IMG_1582_zpsghkfn5dx.png)
Sorry for the bad pictures. I don't have a good camera.
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Congrats on building a shooter. :thumbsup:
And no catchers gear!!! :laughing:
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quote:
Originally posted by Bvas:
Congrats on building a shooter. :thumbsup:
And no catchers gear!!! :biglaugh:
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Looks like it is bending nice Trent!
Good plan on the safety stuff. Eyes and other round twin stuff can't be replaced! :D
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Originally posted by kennym:
Looks like it is bending nice Trent!
Good plan on the safety stuff. Eyes and other round twin stuff can't be replaced! :D
Good thought. Maybe I ought to dig out some of my old baseball equipment :biglaugh:
If I had more time to make another bow, I might have just chopped this one up and called it a lesson learned, but I really wanted to try and save it. I'm headed off to college next year and I'm not sure when or if I'll ever get to build another. Hopefully I can find someplace with a woodshop.