O.K. I seem to get a sore left shoulder every time I shoot my Morrison Cheyenne. I like the bow and shoot it well and plan to hunt with it this year. However, I have several bows all 53# and the Cheyenne is 52# and I can't figure out why I only get the sore shoulder when I shoot this bow. Same length as some of my other bows also. Any suggetions? Anybody else have this happen to them?
Which shoulder? What length draw/bow? Is the grip different than your other bows?
I will put my 2 cents in. I have worked for many years in the compound bow industry, first producing/selling and now manufacturing. Here are some simple physics as they apply to compounds, and I would believe to all bows. "You don't get something for nothing," is a simple way to say this, but when a lighter weight bow shoots as fast as a heavier weight bow, it's not magic; the lighter bow is storing as much energy as the heavier one. Energy is stored via the bow being pulled, and you have to pull it. Therefore, you do as much work pulling the lighter bow as you do the heavier bow, although the draw cycle will be (and feel) different. Morrison's bows are known to be on the upper end of fast trad. bows. Is your bow noticeably faster than the other 53lb bows you own, say comparable to a bow in the 56-57lb range? If so, you are doing the same amount of work to store energy with that bow as you are to shoot the heavier bow. Simple physics: energy in, energy out. Delivered energy also depends on bow effieciency, but I doubt the Morrison is decidedly more efficient than your other bows. His bows have a draw cycle that allows them to store more energy, and even if you think it feels the same, or just as smooth, you are doing harder work when you draw it. Hence, your shoulder feels as though you have been shooting a bow 4-6lbs heavier than usual. WHEW! That was way too in-depth, sorry. This is just an observation based on seeing hundreds of prototypes tested in the compound world, and talking to designers who are way smarter than I am. If the bow shoots faster, you have to do more work to pull it, simple. JMHO, Paul.
I think you like the bow more and shoot it longer.
You shot it enough to wake up Arthur.
Killdeer~simple is as simple does, Sir!
I have the same problem, but it happens when shooting a Recurve VS a Longbow. I can shoot a longbow all day with no problems, but when, I shoot a Recurve it only takes a dozen shots, and my both shoulders begin to bother me, so no more Recurves for me.
I would have to say it's the grip, and the position it puts you in, and the design of the bow itself. Bottom line is, if it bothers you don't shoot it. It may be a great bow, but it's not for you, and it's not worth being in pain after shooting cause it will only hurt you in the long run, and cause serious shoulder problems.
Mike
I've owned a couple of bows (recurves) that bothered my bow arm shoulder if I shot them much.
Like stringdancer said, I think it was something about the grip and the way I held those particular bows.
I still have one of them and shoot it some. The other one hurt my shoulder so bad I had to get rid of it. It was a good bow too by a well known bowyer. The fellow that has it now likes it and doesn't have any problem with it.
Maybe the bow loads up in the being of the draw, if so that can sometimes be harder on the body. I always carry tubing to warm up my arms and shoulders before shooting ...Id rest for 2 weeks no shooting any bows ...then start just a few arrows a day say first day 4 good shots...thats it ....add 6 ...then thats it...and so on...ur shoulder need rest...the other thing that has help me is I have a great Chioprator , he keeps me in the game and use to be trainer for the Natonal Champion LSU Football and Baseball TEAM...he is the best in Baton Rouge,LA. good luck
Same thing here, it's the grip. Slight locator grip LB= no pain, full recurve grip = pain in bow arm shoulder.
It is my left shoulder and I am a right handed shooter. It is a great bow and much faster than my 53# bows. I also work out on weights at the gym each week so I am fairly well build in my shoulder and arm muscles. Maybe I will order a riser to match the grips on my other recurves as it seems some here think that could solve the problem. I'd really like to try to work this out before giving up on the bow cause it really smokes an arrow and I shoot heavy arrows and need the extra speed.
Also, maybe I can get Bob to send me a Shawnee to try and see if that makes a difference? :confused:
The bow should fit you! Don't try to make yourself fit the bow just cause you like it, or it is faster than some of your other bows, the trade off is just not worth it. Your body will tell you when a bow is not right for you, and I really don't think it is something you can just work out. Don't risk getting a bad shoulder cause one you do you have it for life.
Mike
I know how to fix it with a 100% guaranty.
Send that puppy to California, I will train it to be nice to you and next year or maybe the year after I will send it back and I promise it will be nice to you and your shoulder.
I wont charge you anything ether, It's on the house, but I will recommend to send a dz arrows to make sure the bow is trained right LOL.
It's the way you hold this bow, your using different muscles in your rotator-cuff, just take it a little slower and let them build up.
Or you can send it here :biglaugh:
You got a deal...as long as you send me a Shawnee ;) .
PS Thanks to the folks who have sent me some personal messages on the subject.
Well if anyone is interested in a B riser C limb Cheyenne I might consider selling it. PM me... :(
Thats funny Mike, I too am looking for a t/d shawnee
Send some pics my way I might be interested or I can just train it for you while you rest :bigsmyl:
Mike,
Sent you a PM.
Kevin
Hi Mike, Does your shoulder hurt on the release or before or later in the day? Where on your shoulder does it hurt? I dealt with a similar problem about ten years ago. Gary
Hi Gary. I feel discomfort in my shoulder mostly after I finish shooting. It doesn't hurt to draw the bow but kinda has an ache to the left shoulder on the outside of the shoulder cap area when I am done. I have other bows I have been shooting just to check on my shoulder and I don't get any pain after shooting them a lot more. I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Thanks. :thumbsup:
Mike, I have several Morrisons both Shawnee & Cheyenne. I find I can't shoot a high wrist as it causes me some discomfort. I sent my favorite Shawnee riser back to Bob and had him match it pretty closely with the Shawnee. You can match it perfectly cause of the straightness of the Shawnee...but they now feel the same. Doc
QuoteOriginally posted by Diamond Paul:
If the bow shoots faster, you have to do more work to pull it, simple. JMHO, Paul.
Paul, not sure I agree with you there. Limb design and materials play a very large part in it. If an older "D" style bow draws 55#@28 on a scale and a Morrison draws 55@28 on the same scale, you are holding the same end weight. Theoretically the same stored energy....of course force draw curves play a part in how much energy is actually stored but at the end, both still are holding at the same peak weight. Limb design and the materials used will dictate how efficiently that energy is released. If you are holding 55 with one bow and 55 with another, it's the same weight...what makes one feel heavier or lighter would be limb design and materials....imho.
I have to agee on the grip type in regards to pain or discomfort while shooting a bow. For me, recurves are better than longbows in terms of being more comfortable to shoot. Most longbow grips cause me to have pain in my elbow when shooting them. I want to shoot longbows, but I love the grip and feel of the draw on recurves. Wouldn't trade my new Timberhawk Recurve for anything!
-Charlie
JC: Actual holding weight and stored energy aren't the same thing. A newer fast compound will be 60 lbs, peak weight, and an older, moderate cam or round wheel compound will also have a 60lb peak weight. However, because the newer bow gets to peak quicker and holds it longer (little valley), it stores more energy. It might also lose less energy due to hysteresis (friction) than the older bow (more effecient). That's why you actually do as much work to pull the newer bow at 60lbs as you do to pull the older bow at 70lbs. There are only a few things that can make one 53lb recurve faster than another of the same weight: 1. It can be more effecient,i.e., delivers more of the stored energy to the arrow. 2. It has a longer power stroke, which is usually governed by either brace height, or amount of reflex/deflex in the riser. 3. It catches weight quicker and holds more (a higher percentage) of the peak weight longer. I know many people post about how the new bow shoots just as fast as the old one at a lesser poundage. The only way that can be is that it stores the same energy, and that energy can only be stored when you pull it. You perceive it as "easier" to pull because it has lower peak weight, but you did the same amount of work overall, because you generated the same energy. Unless the newer bow is delivering a substantially greater percentage of stored energy to the arrow (dynamic efficiency), you do the same work to pull either bow. I don't see how this principle can be different for a traditional bow as compared to a compound. JMHO, Paul.
P.S.: If the bow has a longer power stroke due to reflex and/or lower brace height, then you are, in effect, working for a longer period of time when pulling it than you are when you pull a high brace/deflexed riser bow. Hence, though peak weight is the same, you worked longer, thus did more total work in pulling it. Morrisons do have very low brace heights compared to other recurves. These are just my observations, your milage may vary. I do enjoy your posts very much, Paul.
O.K. I'm going to bring up a different point , one that I feel is my personal problem with curves. I feel the extra mass weight is what hurts me , as the arrow leaves the bow the dead weight hangs out there and pulls down harder on my arm . If I shoot a heavy mass curve my shoulder hurts but with low mass lonbow or low mass curve all is well . Who knows (just mho) Drew
Just got back from shooting some stumps and lumps with my middle boy using my plain Jane 560 T/D...hit where I was looking and no soreness. Why can't I just stick to one bow :banghead: . What is it about this traditional bug that I always want to experiment with other bows. I'm already lining up a Foley or Silver Tip ;) . I guess G. Fred Asbell was right in that article a year or two ago about shooting only one bow...what he forgot to mention is how hard it is for some of us to do :p .
Paul, while it's been years since my engineering classes, if you read my post, I said nothing of "work" being equal...in fact I said "of course force draw curves play a part in how much energy is actually stored".
Yep, what you speak of is the energy stored "below the force curve" on the graph....what I am talking about is the static holding weight. "but at the end, both still are holding at the same peak weight."
Holding 50# is still holding 50#....wether it's a compound, a longbow, or a 50# bag of wheat. If you hurt at 50# holding one bow, you are going to hurt 50# at any other...you are still "holding" 50#. If you are hurting more with a bow that has more preload but the holding weight is the same I would offer you have a form problem. The bow shoulder is relatively static during the draw...if it hurts at 9" and 35#, it should hurt even worse at the final 28" @ 50"
"you did the same amount of work overall, because you generated the same energy." Well, I'll disagree again. Same preloads, same force curves, same "work"...bow with materials that are more efficient in releasing the energy (differences in elasticity (carbon can relase it's energy more efficiently than bamboo even if both "store" the same) etc.) and lighter (look at ACS profile or Morrison foam) will be faster.
Good luck Mike, glad you found one that doesn't hurt. But that shooting one bow thing....dang...you sure are asking a lot of a feller! :readit:
JC: you are absolutely correct, the bow can be much faster if it is more effecient. However, it's got to be much more effecient to see noticeable speed gains. If his other bows are modern designs, then I doubt this is the case, in which case the design is storing more energy. Pain is not a result of the holding weight, but of the effort it's taking him to get there.
Tippit-I have found I have the same issues with a high wrist grip. I've started asking Don to knock the palm swell down on just about all my shooters beginning with a styleI B riser takedown and have found it improved the shooting characteristics of the bow considerably. He has two of my Super Kodiaks right now and will lower the wrist on each. I think you made a good point. Grant
QuoteOriginally posted by Diamond Paul:
Pain is not a result of the holding weight, but of the effort it's taking him to get there.
Again, opinions vary on that one. I've had shoulder pain....and it didn't start till I hit peak weight (or at least the last few "'s), not during the draw. When I dropped weight (same limb design out of same bow), the problem went away. Did some PT, went back up to previous weight, everything was hunky dory. So no, pain is not necessarily coming from the effort it takes to get there. Could have just been me, I guess...but that's what I assumed he was speaking of since I've never experienced any other.
And when you say "noticable difference": my genII (2003) morrison recurve limbs were 3fps slower (all gr/# equal) than my genIII (2006) limbs...only change was profile, not materials. The foam core (late 2007) recurve limbs were 2 more fps faster than the genIII limbs, same profile, different materials. 3fps is noticeable, imho...5 is certainly.
Not trying to be argumentative for no reason, but you seem to be relaying some "opinion" as "fact".
JC: these are just observations based on my experiences in the business of making compounds. The fastest hand-held bow in the world hangs in our shop (AMO rating): 70lbs, 30". It gets to 70 in about 3" and stays there till it breaks over at about 29.89". I can't even think about pulling it! To say that the effort required to pull this bow is equal to the effort required to pull another 70lb, 30" draw bow can be refuted just by letting someone draw it. Seems like recurves have to adhere to the same physical principles. If more energy is imparted to the arrow, either more is stored or the bow is tremendously more efficient in delivering it. As I said, most of my observations come from prototyping compounds, your milage may vary. Just offering a possible reason why he is experiencing pain, not a definitive reason. Keep up the good work, love this forum and the work ya'll do! Paul.
"To say that the effort required to pull this bow is equal to the effort required to pull another 70lb, 30" draw bow can be refuted just by letting someone draw it." On that, we can agree. I was assuming he meant holding weight, not "effort". Yes, if you take materials out of the equation, some bows do store more energy by design and plotting their force curve plainly shows it.
It sounds like "effort" may have been his problem since changing bows fixed it.
Drew , just read ur comment and I agree completely...on the mass weight of the bow...but the bottom line , I hope our Tgang buddy , fines some pain free shooting soon ...mark#78
Yep , sure is hard to not be able to shoot for some time :0)