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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Major Boothroyd on August 30, 2016, 02:27:00 PM
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Well I've probably bitten off more than I should have, but after thinking about it for a few years, I've finally decided to give building a laminated glass bow a try. It's been incredibly helpful to read all of the "Build Along" threads about the process, and to follow what others have done, so I thought I'd start a thread for my first bow build.
I know I'll have a ton of questions as I go, and so many of you bowyers here have an incredible wealth of knowledge, so I hope you'll be willing to help me along as I go. No doubt, others will be able to learn from my mistakes for their first efforts!
First the basics... I'm attempting to build a similar bow to one of my favorite one piece longbows, and I have measured and chosen laminations accordingly. I'm not looking to make a perfect clone of this bow, rather just a reasonably similar looking design with similar performance and feel.
The basics...
I'm planning on using zebrawood for my riser, and ActionBoo laminations (a combination of parallel and tapered), along with .040 and .050 glass for the back and belly respectively. I have some Eucalyptus Burl veneers for my outer laminations, under the glass.
I'm still building my heat box and my form. The heat box and form are based on the designs from Bingham's.
I welcome all the help (and criticism) I can get!
Thanks!
Anthony
My Zebrawood stock:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-Bjf8Q9h/0/M/i-Bjf8Q9h-M.jpg)
My Eucalyptus Burl veneers:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-KdtmKct/0/M/i-KdtmKct-M.jpg)
Drawing the bow shape onto what will be my form's top ply lamination:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-QRNv4VC/0/M/i-QRNv4VC-M.jpg)
Partially constructed heat box:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-NCNJxRh/0/M/i-NCNJxRh-M.jpg)
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Wish you the best, post pictures of your progress.
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I don't think I've ever seen eucalyptus ..... STUNNING! :thumbsup: good luck.
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Hope your glass is streak free with that cool wood! The last glass i goy was pretty bad.
Its not hard to do a glass lam bow. The problem is that its hard to stop making them.
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Thank you, guys, for the encouragement! I will definitely keep posting pics and updates as I make progress.
Blaino, I agree... the Eucalyptus Burl caught my eye, and I don't think I've seen any bows made with it before.
breazyears, I got "Bo Tuff Crystal Clear" glass laminations from OMC Bowyer Supply. I'm hoping the name is accurate but I guess I'll only know for sure after I glue it all up. And yes, I can imagine that this will not be the last bow I make. I'm already having a great time doing the research, and choosing the components/lams, and building my form and heat box!
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Lay the glass on a black surface and look it over closely. Blow or brush the dust off it first, it can look like streaks.
Then hold up to a good light and look it over carefully, you should see any streaks doing these things.
Good luck sir!
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Nice veneers, how thick are they?
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go to Lowe's a buy 1/8" wood dowel 2' or 3' long and pin you lams and glass to your riser on the back of the bow to keep them from slipping around when you glue up.
you can put it dead center and cover it up later with a overlay
! !
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)-(<------riser thumb and finger grip
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! !
I pin my belly lams at the top of the fade ramp and cut the extra wood off later.
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always liked to watch the new setup... please keep coming...
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Originally posted by Mark Daniel:
Nice veneers, how thick are they?
They are .021"
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kennym, thanks for the tip on checking the clarity of the glass strips. I'll look them over today.
Mark Daniel, I haven't come across that method before, but I think I understand what you're suggesting. Is that a big concern... lams sliding around when gluing up, if you don't pin them?
As far as how you actually do it, I'm guessing you line up your stack of lams, and carefully drill through the glass, and other lams, just into the riser on the back of the bow, and then pin them with the dowel on glue up? Then the same thing on the face/belly, but on the top of the fade ramps as you suggest?
I'm going to try to get some work done today and tomorrow towards finishing up my heat box, form, and cutting my riser out.
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Riser and lams sliding is a HUGE issue I wished I had listened to that advice better on my first bow.
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Originally posted by Major Boothroyd:
kennym, thanks for the tip on checking the clarity of the glass strips. I'll look them over today.
Mark Daniel, I haven't come across that method before, but I think I understand what you're suggesting. Is that a big concern... lams sliding around when gluing up, if you don't pin them?
As far as how you actually do it, I'm guessing you line up your stack of lams, and carefully drill through the glass, and other lams, just into the riser on the back of the bow, and then pin them with the dowel on glue up? Then the same thing on the face/belly, but on the top of the fade ramps as you suggest?
I'm going to try to get some work done today and tomorrow towards finishing up my heat box, form, and cutting my riser out.
YES
Make sure your riser is thick enough or glue on more to the belly, so the pins don't go into the finished bow.
Mark you core lams. left's and right's, belly side and back side
Osage and maple added to riser
see the hole below my hand (there is 2 holes for zip ties) is for zip ties
Hold the glued lams down slide your pressure strip on there and zip tie it down.
the 1/8" pin could crack out the hole if you don't hold it down.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b593/osagemark/mojam2016/100_0910.jpg) (http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/osagemark/media/mojam2016/100_0910.jpg.html)
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Good tip Mark, one other tip is when you put the glue to those thin veneers, pick the glass up and flip over on the veneer to pick it up. A thin veneer will split with the weight of glue when you pick it up. Don't even ask... :dunno: :D
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Mark Daniels, thank you for the photo and tips! Now I understand more clearly how you pin the laminations.
Thank you, too, kennym... that's something I could easily see myself doing, and learning the hard way, if you hadn't warned me!
I spent most of the day working on the heat box and the form. I cut the top of the box off, and installed a piano hinge, along with some handles: one on each end of the box, and one for the top/lid.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-tM6QKFQ/0/M/i-tM6QKFQ-M.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-Z3g8vWk/0/M/i-Z3g8vWk-M.jpg)
I'm gong to try to complete the box tomorrow, which just needs installation of the bulb sockets, wiring, thermostat and insulation.
I cut the form with my buddy's band saw. I really have to get a band saw before long... what an great and indispensible tool! I'll be back over to his place to cut my riser sometime in the next few days, hopefully.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-GDFFBPZ/0/M/i-GDFFBPZ-M.jpg)
After I finish up the heat box, the next step is to complete the assembly of the form, and then I have to cut the riser. Then it'll be time to try a test dry fit.
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Check out grizzly.com for a bandsaw. Get at least a 14" 1hp machine.
http://www.grizzly.com/woodworking-bandsaws
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Looking good. X2 the grizzly saw I went with a 17" and love it.
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Just slap some glass on either side of that form cut-out, and call it a bow!! :laughing:
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http://wookieswords.blogspot.com/2012/03/reflex-deflex-longbow-build-1.html
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Well, for now I'm gonna use my buddy's bandsaw, and I'll have to just be content lusting for one someday. I will definitely get one at some point. Thanks for the tip on the Grizzly.
KenH, Ha! I was thinking the same thing!
Mark Daniel, that's a great blog and resource... thanks for sharing the link!
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"The best laid plans of mice and men..."
I was hoping to get more done today, but things always seem to take longer than expected.
The good news is, I completed the heat box. It's wired up with a thermostat, and 4 sockets, and I have four 200W bulbs in it. I stapled in some insulation, and it works! I'm planning to test it tomorrow for a couple of hours, to see if it reaches 160 - 180 F. If not, I'll have to find some higher wattage bulbs.
I didn't have time to work on the form after finishing up the box. I hope to get some work done on the form tomorrow.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-FsL996z/0/M/i-FsL996z-M.jpg)
It's Alive!
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-tD5nwPT/0/L/i-tD5nwPT-L.jpg)
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Looking good :)
It should get hot enough but if not add more bulbs.
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That's pretty much the identical layout of my box. I had a bad experience with my hose losing pressure during the bake and not knowing it until the bow was cooked. So, I cut a round hole in the end of the form that allows the hose to protrude. Then I attach a pressure gauge to the hose so it can be monitored. Some rags stuffed around it keeps it airtight.
It never happened again, but. . . .!
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monterey, man that's a drag. Was that bow basically toast? I plan on pressure testing my hose overnight to make sure it keeps pressure, before I use it for the first time.
So I'm at the point where I have a couple of questions regarding my form...
I ordered a basic laminating press kit from Binghams and I've generally been following their instructions, with the exception that my bow shape/pattern differs from their designs. The kit came with a pressure strip as well as what was supposed to be a "formica" strip, but instead appears to be a fiberglass strip that's pretty much identical to the ones I will be using for my bow build, although those came from a different supplier.
I'm guessing using glass instead of formica should be fine, as I plan to wax the glass strip after it's laminated onto my form, and I'm also planning to use kitchen plastic wrap over the form when I glue up the bow.
I'm wondering what kind of glue I should use to laminate the glass strip to my form? Is Titebond III suitable, or would I be better off using an epoxy of some sort?
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I used 3m spray adhesive on my forms and it has served me well.
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I use contact cement on mine and it works well
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Monterey, that's too bad your hose won't stay up.. :)
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I knew as I typed it that I'd get a "rise" out of you, Roy. :biglaugh:
Major, I had no idea how long it had held and it had been in the oven for eight hours. So, I went ahead on the supposition that it was ok and it's still shooting.
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monterey, that's good to hear that the bow worked out.
I worked for several hours today on the form. I drilled the holes for the clamps, and fabricated and drilled the 1/2" ply offset pieces for the clamp hardware. I just need to fasten the 1/2" ply offsets, and cement the fiberglass strip on the lower half of the form.
I'll post pics tomorrow.
I also have my riser section cut out of my Zebrawood stock.
The next step is to cut the riser shape, and sand the fades, and then do a dry fit test run.
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Well, I'm not impressed with the performance of the thermostat I purchased from Bingham. I put a probe thermometer in the box (in the middle of the box and at the approximate height the bow would be while in the press) and turned on the bulbs, and let the box run for an hour.
I wired it in as per the instructions: not closer than 3" from the edge of the box, and not closer than 14" from the closest lightbulb.
Initially, the temp rose quite quickly to 182 F, before the thermostat cut the circuit. The temperature in the box dropped down to 128 F before cycling back on again.
After leaving the box on for a while, and having the thermostat cycle on and off, the thermostat started cutting the circuit when the temperature in the box reached 155 F, and then didn't start up again until the temperature dropped to 124 F. The temperature drop takes a few minutes, and the temperature ramp up takes slightly less time.
The high temp reading just as the thermostat cuts the circuit:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-FWwFzXM/0/L/i-FWwFzXM-L.jpg)
The low temperature before the thermostat cycles back on:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-JhXjNzW/0/L/i-JhXjNzW-L.jpg)
I think I'm going to rip that thermostat out and just play around with bulb wattage combinations to get a steady temp between 160 F - 180F. I think that's going to be better than having the temperature constantly ramp up and down, and actually never really staying in the desired range for Smooth On.
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My (almost) completed form. I still have to glue the glass strip to the bottom half of the form with contact cement.
Other than that, I have a little adjustment I want to make to the riser section of the top half of the form, and I plan to fabricate and install some edge alignment washers to keep the limb laminations lined up nicely during glue up and curing.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-VnqTpcK/0/L/i-VnqTpcK-L.jpg)
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You need to have something large in the box to heat up.
I had a BBQ smoker, I put a gallon of water (or meat) in there and it smooth out.
What did you do to the bottom form to get it smooth and square to the sides.
You are making good progress, but slow down a little.
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Originally posted by Mark Daniel:
You need to have something large in the box to heat up.
I had a BBQ smoker, I put a gallon of water (or meat) in there and it smooth out.
What did you do to the bottom form to get it smooth and square to the sides.
You are making good progress, but slow down a little.
Mark Daniel, are you suggesting that the thermostat may work better if there is something with mass in the box? As in, it may not ramp up and down so much? If so, I still don't know why it seems to be shutting off the circuit when the highest the temperature gets is below 160 F.
As for the bottom of the form, I cut it on my buddy's Laguna bandsaw, and the cut came out perfectly perpendicular/square to the sides. I sanded it with a combination of a spindle sander and a belt sander (the kind where the belt is perpendicular to the work table) to smooth it out. It still checks out square to the sides.
As for slowing down, I don't think I'm rushing at all. If anything, I feel like I'm spending more time on many of the individual steps than most people probably do, because I haven't built a bow before, and I'm trying to minimize my mistakes. I have a little block of time off before work starts up again, so I'm trying to make hay while the sun shines, and I'm having fun working on this project. :)
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yes on the mass
How close is(Binghams) thermostat to the probe thermometer?
Just checking on what you are doing.
You are doing a fine job.
Put the form in there and run it again.
My box takes 1 hour to come up to tem. with a form like that. smaller pieces take less time.
Any recent movies you worked on, I might know?
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Be sure to do a dry run ,no glue but all other parts , before you start the actual glue up. Bad time to find out something don't fit.
Once started a glue up on an actionwood bow, and discovered the riser was still a 2x2x18 pc.
Fastest riser I ever prepped!! LOL
But made it before glue set!
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Actually, unless you are going to be overly perfectionist, your temperature range will be fine.
Did you put a small fan inside to keep the temperature evened out? One of those little battery operated fans sold for RV refrigerators would probably be adequate. But I have not tried it so this is just speculating.
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Mark Daniel, the probe was not close to the thermostat, but rather about where the center of the bow would be. I will give it a try with the press inside, and see how that does. I'll also let it run for a couple of hours to see how it does over time.
As for movies, I tend to shoot more TV shows than movies. I shot "Entourage" for a couple of seasons, "Last Man On Earth" last season, and a bunch of others. Movie wise, I shot the "Borat" and "Bruno" movies, and a documentary film called "Religulous," with Bill Maher. I also shot a movie last year with Nic Cage, but I don't know if or when that will be released.
kennym, I definitely intend to do a dry run prior to gluing up. That sounds like a close call on that riser prep!
monterey, I have seen a few posts by folks saying they installed a fan like that. I may do that, but as of now, I don't have a fan installed. Good to know about the temperature range being ok. I just found that the manufacturer's tech sheet recommends a stepped temperature ramp up over the course of the use for bows:
2 hrs at 120 F
2 hrs at 150 F
2 hrs at 185 F
Man thats specific, and there's no easy way to get that kind of precision with this style heat box, so I'm glad to hear there's some wiggle room.
Thanks for the great tips!
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I had the same problem with the bingham themostat the issue is without fans circulating most of the heat stays at the top of the box so when the t-stat reaches temp the middle of the box is several degrees lower i just took the thermostat out and i will screw in enough bulbs to get up to temp. I have a thermometer stuck through the side of the box right next to the form so that i can monitor temp while it cooks
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cool
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Thats funny Kenny..I keep an extra ready for glue up riser in my shop for every bow form.. just in case.
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I just play about with the wattage of the bulbs to get the max temp to where I want it. Your box will only ever get to a certain max temperature. I use 2 x 200 watts, 2 x 100 watts and play from there. My hot box is bigger than yours though.
Don't stress about the temperatures too much as long as it gets hot enough (and it will!) for long enough you are good to go. I also put any excess glue from the glue-up in the box as well when curing parts for an extra 'read' on glue/curing.
I use lots of tape to hold my lams in place and have never had anything move.
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peanut39350, I ordered a fan, so I'll give that a try, along with having the form inside the box for another temperature test run.
If that doesn't even out the swings, then I will probably pull the thermostat out, and play around with different wattage bulbs, as mikkekeswick suggests, along with the fan.
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You will find that going from say 2, 3, or 4 bulbs, the temperature for each combination of bulbs will hover pretty closely to the same. Meaning 2 bulbs might be say 110, 3 bulbs maybe 140, and 4 bulbs 160, etc.
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Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
You will find that going from say 2, 3, or 4 bulbs, the temperature for each combination of bulbs will hover pretty closely to the same. Meaning 2 bulbs might be say 110, 3 bulbs maybe 140, and 4 bulbs 160, etc.
I guess that's OK LOL
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:) LOL
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Nice work on the hot box and your form. I'm looking forward to seeing your bow.
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Originally posted by takefive:
Nice work on the hot box and your form. I'm looking forward to seeing your bow.
x2
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X3
Im watching.
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Accidental repost (by hitting the browser's back button). I can't delete the post, so apologies for not having a real update.
I'm hoping to cut my riser out later this week. I glued the glass strip to the bottom form with contact cement, so I'm getting closer to the glue up day.
I picked up a few pieces of nice Brazilian Rosewood, locally, that I may use for accent overlays on the riser and for limb tip overlays.
Hopefully more to report in the next couple of days...
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Major
Update please
:campfire: :coffee:
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Okay, sorry about the delay... I had a bit of a busy week, and couldn't really get over to my buddy's shop to do much until today.
I cut my riser out of my Zebrawood stock, along with an accent strip of Brazilian Rosewood. I sanded both, and did my best to get paper thin fade outs. I shaped the accent strip similar to the way the bow that I patterned mine after has it.
One thing that I could not seem to get was a perfect line at the end of my fadeouts. I don't know how critical it is to get that perfect. I may have to spend some more time with a sanding block to try to get a perfect line, if that is imperative. I look forward to hearing what you guys think (pics below).
I also cut some slots in a dozen fender washers, and screwed them onto my lower form. They are to keep the stack of laminations lined up during the glue up.
I also hand sanded away a slight overlap that the fiberglass strip on the top edge of the bottom of my form seemed to have, so now it's perfectly flush with the form.
Finally, I added little plywood "feet" at the ends of my form to make it more stable throughout the glue up and cooking.
The lower portion of the form with feet added and fender washers installed:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-PNrzzb6/0/L/i-PNrzzb6-L.jpg)
Closeup of one of the feet and a slotted fender washer:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-LVSnwns/0/L/i-LVSnwns-L.jpg)
My riser cutout and sanded:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-HMbrNqQ/0/L/i-HMbrNqQ-L.jpg)
A different angle of the riser:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-MwD2drt/0/XL/i-MwD2drt-XL.jpg)
One of the fadeouts on my riser... pretty ,such paper thin, but not perfectly straight across the width, as you can see (the other end is closer to being straight across):
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-ch5mX8W/0/L/i-ch5mX8W-L.jpg)
Brazilian Rosewood accent strip:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-9SJBtgW/0/L/i-9SJBtgW-L.jpg)
The fades on this strip are razor thin at the ends:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-hWGLCXQ/0/L/i-hWGLCXQ-L.jpg)
But also not perfectly straight across the width:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-QMTFB7Q/0/L/i-QMTFB7Q-L.jpg)
The next significant step will be a dry run assembly, to make sure everything fits nicely before gluing up and cooking. I hope to do that Sunday afternoon. I'm shooting in a tournament both tomorrow and Sunday morning, so I won't get to it until Sunday afternoon at the earliest.
One question I have about using the 1/8 inch dowel for pinning the laminations.... drilling, should be done right before the actual glue, up, right? It seems to me that once you pin the laminations to the riser, you would have to flush cut the dowel right before putting the pressure strip on and closing up the form and pressurizing the firehose. I can't see any easy way of pinning it for the dry run, and being able to disassemble it easily, without risking cracking a lamination.
Also, is it advisable to sand or rough up the ActionBoo laminations, wood veneers and the fiberglass strips prior to glue up?
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For the dry run.
Pin the back stack into the riser, clamp that down to the form center line, the pin will push itself flush.
lay the belly stack on top and line up the TIP ends of the lams, put the pressure strips (one for each side) on, and zip tie down, Leave room to drill the 1/8' pin. sand the pin before you cut it for a slip fit. I push the 2' long pin into the drilled hole then cut it 1/8" above the glass with a razor blade.
now you have to cut the butt ends off
The fade ramps, the pressure strip would not cover the pin. just butt it next to the pin while you hold it down and zip tie it down.
You don"t want to be trying to drill glued lams and all that.
That is how I do it
I use to get in a hurry when I was gluing up, lots of thing can happen when it get's slippery.
so the dry run and pinning works for me.
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Looking nice.
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You are probably already doing this, but when you are thinning the taper on your riser you need to have a backer behind it.
I take mine down on an osscillating upright drum sander until the ends of the fades are about 1/32" thick and then finish thinning them with a piece of 60 grit glued to a 8" length of scrap wood thin enough to be flexible. Once again, you need a backer.
Sometimes it's a good idea to set the power tools aside. :)
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Mark Daniel, how do you separate the pinned laminations form the riser after the dry run, for the glue up? Do you just carefully pry the laminations off? Do you drill the holes slightly loose, so the pins aren't too tight in the first place?
Also, do you use zip ties during your actual glue up, and just let them stay under the firehose throughout the curing of the epoxy? Do you have a series of holes drilled along your lower half of your form for the zip ties?
Thank you for the tips!
Originally posted by Mark Daniel:
For the dry run.
Pin the back stack into the riser, clamp that down to the form center line, the pin will push itself flush.
lay the belly stack on top and line up the TIP ends of the lams, put the pressure strips (one for each side) on, and zip tie down, Leave room to drill the 1/8' pin. sand the pin before you cut it for a slip fit. I push the 2' long pin into the drilled hole then cut it 1/8" above the glass with a razor blade.
now you have to cut the butt ends off
The fade ramps, the pressure strip would not cover the pin. just butt it next to the pin while you hold it down and zip tie it down.
You don"t want to be trying to drill glued lams and all that.
That is how I do it
I use to get in a hurry when I was gluing up, lots of thing can happen when it get's slippery.
so the dry run and pinning works for me.
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Thank you, Roy. Were you at ETAR this year? I went with a few of my friends from Pasadena, CA. It was our first time going. What a great time that was!
monterey, I am using backing when sanding the fades, and I sanded by hand as I got to the delicate part, too. I did not use a flexible strip of wood however. Thank you for the tip. That sounds like a great idea.
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I use the piece of riser I cut out to establish the fade curve.
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That's exactly what I did, Mike. Also, I used that same piece to protect the riser's delicate fades after I finished sanding and prepping it. I basically used it as a cradle, and taped the two pieces together with painter's tape.
Originally posted by mikkekeswick:
I use the piece of riser I cut out to establish the fade curve.
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Originally posted by Major Boothroyd:
Mark Daniel, how do you separate the pinned laminations form the riser after the dry run, for the glue up? Do you just carefully pry the laminations off? Do you drill the holes slightly loose, so the pins aren't too tight in the first place?
Also, do you use zip ties during your actual glue up, and just let them stay under the firehose throughout the curing of the epoxy? Do you have a series of holes drilled along your lower half of your form for the zip ties?
Thank you for the tips!
Originally posted by Mark Daniel:
For the dry run.
Pin the back stack into the riser, clamp that down to the form center line, the pin will push itself flush.
lay the belly stack on top and line up the TIP ends of the lams, put the pressure strips (one for each side) on, and zip tie down, Leave room to drill the 1/8' pin. sand the pin before you cut it for a slip fit. I push the 2' long pin into the drilled hole then cut it 1/8" above the glass with a razor blade.
now you have to cut the butt ends off
The fade ramps, the pressure strip would not cover the pin. just butt it next to the pin while you hold it down and zip tie it down.
You don"t want to be trying to drill glued lams and all that.
That is how I do it
I use to get in a hurry when I was gluing up, lots of thing can happen when it get's slippery.
so the dry run and pinning works for me.
[/b]
you sand the pin while it is still long, check the fit, loose
2 holes for zip ties on each riser ramp. and a couple each side of the form, close to the washers.
yes the zip ties are on top of the pressure strip
Read my post on page 1 and 4 again
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Re the zip ties, I pump hose to about 15# check all is still aligned then cut and remove ties just so there is no possibility of them pressing down on limbs under higher loading from pump.
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Mark Daniel, got it... thank you!
bigbob2, thanks for your tip, too!
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I haven't seen any dents with final sanding on the back of the bow.
Some pressure strips are thinner, I could see that leaving dents.
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I did a dry run test today... I didn't bother with plastic wrap, or waxing the form yet, as this was just a dry run. Everything looks pretty good to me, overall. I did do a little more hand sanding of my fades after this test, and I pinned the laminations after the test, so that the butt ends of my laminations now have zero void space, as opposed to how they appear in the photos below. I also drilled a couple more holes for additional zip ties near the ends of the fades.
I think tomorrow may be the glue up day, although it will depend on the weather. It was a little uncharacteristically damp out today (for SoCal), but it should be dry and warm by tomorrow or Friday at the latest.
Laminations laid out and organized..
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-DcM6JJx/0/X2/i-DcM6JJx-X2.jpg)
Dry run test with firehose inflated to 60 psi:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-qxRWM3M/0/X2/i-qxRWM3M-X2.jpg)
Riser section (prior to pinning the laminations):
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-GcbVbG2/0/X2/i-GcbVbG2-X2.jpg)
After pinning the laminations, there was no space between the butt ends of the bamboo laminations.
Close up detail of the accent strip fade. I did little more hand sanding of the fades on the riser and the accent strip after taking these photos of this dry run test.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-kpVN7vq/0/X2/i-kpVN7vq-X2.jpg)
That's all for today.
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You need to get rid of those gaps, and I did not know you where going full length on the fiber glass on the belly .
You need to splice the butts of ALL of your lams together.
Much more easy on the glue up
Page 2
http://www.tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001165;p=1
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Yes I was planning on doing at least one more dry run test to make sure I've gotten rid of the voids/spaces before gluing up (maybe more than one if necessary).
And I was coming around to the conclusion that I should splice my lams. I saw that done in a video by a guy on YouTube who has a series of videos called The Bowyer's Den."
I guess that's what I'll do today!
Thanks Mark Daniel!
Originally posted by Mark Daniel:
You need to get rid of those gaps, and I did not know you where going full length on the fiber glass on the belly .
You need to splice the butts of ALL of your lams together.
Much more easy on the glue up
Page 2
http://www.tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001165;p=1
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Okay, so here's the update for today. I didn't have a lot of free time, so all I did was sand the angles for scarf joints for my upper limb and lower limb lam pairs to be joined, as shown in the thread Mark Daniel linked two posts above. I glued all the ActionBoo lamination pairs together, but came across a problem with the Eucalyptus burl. It seems that Eucalyptus Burl veneers don't want to bond with CA glue (cyano acrylate).
I'm guessing it could be natural oils that might be present in Eucalyptus wood. The veneers don't seem to be oily to touch, nor can I detect any scent, but the glue just won't seem to set up, and it did great with the bamboo laminations.
I'm thinking of trying Titebond III, since the joint is just to connect the pairs together to make the real glue up easier and to keep the pairs from sliding around and separating.
I am a bit concerned now, however, about whether or not the epoxy will bond properly to those veneers. I'm guessing/hoping that it'll be fine, since more than one bowyer supply vendor carries Eucalyptus burl. I'm second guessing whether or not I should play it safe and just use some Myrtle veneers I also have lying around, or take the gamble. What do you guys think?
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How long are you clamping the euc burl? CA will dry and seal on coco and other oily woods to seal for finishing.
The CA may not soak into it like it does on boo so it may take longer to dry. If I coat both pcs , I leave it clamped longer too. Also on the thin veneers, you don't have as much glue surface to hold it together.
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Well, the CA cured in less than 20 minutes with the ActionBoo. I gave up after 45 minutes on the burl. It just didn't seem to be working at all. After 45 minutes, the CA was still completely liquid, and the lams slid apart without any apparent bonding having taken place.
How long does cocobolo and other oily woods take to bond with CA?
Originally posted by kennym:
How long are you clamping the euc burl? CA will dry and seal on coco and other oily woods to seal for finishing.
The CA may not soak into it like it does on boo so it may take longer to dry. If I coat both pcs , I leave it clamped longer too. Also on the thin veneers, you don't have as much glue surface to hold it together.
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It usually dries on coco in about a minute or less when sealing with it. I usually leave the lams clamped for probably 10 minutes. What kind of CA are you using?
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Also how long is your scarf joint, longer is better....
On veneers, I go 3/16 to a quarter, depending on thickness, and on say a .100 lam, it ends up an inch or better.
Oh, and I use loc tite from wally world . The thin stuff, hate gel CA.... That's just me tho. :)
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kennym, on the veneers, I have about 1/4" overlap for the scarf joint, and I would say about an inch for the bamboo lams.
The CA I used is Gold Tip brand, because it's what I had on hand. I normally use it for fletching feathers on Carbon arrow shafts. I store it in the fridge, and keep it in a ziplock bag. It worked great on the bamboo lams.
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I've never used GT glue, IMO you might try a fresh bottle of something different before you give up. I've glued all kinds of veneers with the lock tite brand. I lay a pc of plastic on a straight 1x2 on the bench edge, glue both bevels and line up on straight slat, then flip plastic over top of veneers ,put a small block on top and quik clamp to bench for awhile.
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Ha! Well, it's too late to do something different. I used Titebond III wood glue this morning to join the Eucalyptus burl with a scarf joint, and it seems to have worked great.
As for my method of gluing up my scarf joints (on the bamboo lams as well as the veneers), you described exactly how I did it! So that's good.
I'm not too concerned about the Titebond being a problem, as it's really only on the minimal scarf joint, and oncee everything is epoxied together, it'll just be sandwiched between the riser an the fiberglass.
The adventure continues!
Originally posted by kennym:
I've never used GT glue, IMO you might try a fresh bottle of something different before you give up. I've glued all kinds of veneers with the lock tite brand. I lay a pc of plastic on a straight 1x2 on the bench edge, glue both bevels and line up on straight slat, then flip plastic over top of veneers ,put a small block on top and quik clamp to bench for awhile.
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I meant to ask... what ratio for Smooth On (EA 40) do you guys recommend? I have seen a variety of answers from 1:1 to 2:1 (Epoxy - Hardener), with the majority being 1:1, by volume (not weight).
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It comes to be mixed 1:1, but some mix 2 resin to 1 hardener. Supposedly better heat resistance, and one really good bowyer told me less air bubbles.
Do NOT mix extra hardener, I know one guy who did and it didn't set up. Seems all wrong, but he called smooth-on and they said not to do that....
I go 1:1
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Good deal on the titebond. I was thinking maybe the glue you had wasn't agreeing with the euc.
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I go a tad more part A... Weighing is easier... If I go 70 grams with 'A' I go about 60 grams with 'B'... Its a win, win... You are guaranteed to have the proportions right, the bond may be a bit stronger and you won't have too much unused hardener wasted...
I like to use tite bond on the wood scarfs and CA on the glass...
Good luck on glue up... Keep a rag or two handy...
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Hows things going?
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I've been meaning to make a post... sorry about the time gaps in posting!
I ran into a minor setback. In testing my oven a second time, I put the form in it, as has been suggested, to add thermal mass in order to get a more accurate idea of how much temperature fluctuation there will be.
Unfortunately, the fiberglass strip on the top of my lower form delaminated during the second round of oven testing. I used contact cement to adhere it, but I wish I had done epoxy from the get go. Anyway, I decided to sand away as much contact cement residue as I could from both the form and the strip, and then epoxy the strip to the form.
After seemingly endless sanding... contact cement does a great job of gumming up sandpaper, I finally got it cleaned up and ready for epoxy. I re-glued it up yesterday, and now I need to do a little sanding and cleaning up of the excess epoxy.
That's today's project for later this afternoon. Tomorrow or Friday I plan to do another dry fit test to see if I've eradicated the voids/ gaps around my fade outs.
One concern I have, however, is that when I glued up my laminations with scarf joints, the Eucalyptus burl veneers warped slightly in a few areas. I guess the dry air and heat outside caused that while the glue up was drying. In any case, I think they might possibly crack if I was to try to press them in another dry fit test. I think when I actually use epoxy, the Euc veneers may soak up the resin and become a bit more flexible, and hopefully that will prevent them from cracking or snapping, but for the dry fit, it could be an issue.
I'm thinking maybe I should leave the Euc veneers out of this upcoming test fit, since they are parallel .020", I'm hoping that leaving them out won't affect the areas of the fades that is what I am primarily concerned with (looking for void spaces, etc.).
What do you guys think?
Originally posted by breazyears:
Hows things going?
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After all that sanding you better make sure your form is true... Meaning fluid curves, Perfectly flat across and 90 degrees to the side... Any slight deviations will be multiplied as you go further down the limb... meaning you might end up with a twisted limb...
The dry fit does not need to go into the hotbox... those extreme temps and humidity changes will mess with the wood... Also when you do a dry fit anything that goes wrong, you want it to go wrong during then and not when you are gluing up... If you are unsure about your scarfs, cut and reglue them or take the chance... Sometimes taking an extra 10- 15 minutes is better than risking the quality of your bow...
HOT BOX....
In 85 to 90 degree temp I use 2- 70 watt bulbs and that will bring me up to 150 - 160 degrees... Put a third bulb on for 45 minutes or so to get you up to temp quicker...
As for me I don't put my form in the oven... I had a problem with a form warping on me... I glue my bow at room temp for 5 hours or over night and then pop it into the oven for 5 hours... Its called post curing...
Just giving you more info to confuse you... Lol...
After you do 7-8 bows you will start finding what works for you and will have developed your own methods...
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I didn't mean to give the impression that I put the form in the hot box during the dry fit. I did not do that the first time I tried a dry fit, nor would I do that ever. I had put the form (empty and not even bolted together) in the box to see what stabilizing effect that would have on the temperature as a test... a separate test from the dry fit.
The Eucalyptus burl veneer just seemed to dry out a little and warp in spots, when I was gluing up the scarf joints. The joints seem perfect, but the burl has just curled slightly in a couple of areas. I don't think it's too severe, so I'm not going to worry about that too much.
I sanded the form and the fiberglass strip carefully, and really only removed the gummy residue, and the form is still square (90deg from top to sides all the way through).
Originally posted by Shredd:
After all that sanding you better make sure your form is true... Meaning fluid curves, Perfectly flat across and 90 degrees to the side... Any slight deviations will be multiplied as you go further down the limb... meaning you might end up with a twisted limb...
The dry fit does not need to go into the hotbox... those extreme temps and humidity changes will mess with the wood... Also when you do a dry fit anything that goes wrong, you want it to go wrong during then and not when you are gluing up... If you are unsure about your scarfs, cut and reglue them or take the chance... Sometimes taking an extra 10- 15 minutes is better than risking the quality of your bow...
HOT BOX....
In 85 to 90 degree temp I use 2- 70 watt bulbs and that will bring me up to 150 - 160 degrees... Put a third bulb on for 45 minutes or so to get you up to temp quicker...
As for me I don't put my form in the oven... I had a problem with a form warping on me... I glue my bow at room temp for 5 hours or over night and then pop it into the oven for 5 hours... Its called post curing...
Just giving you more info to confuse you... Lol...
After you do 7-8 bows you will start finding what works for you and will have developed your own methods...
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When I was cleaning up the form yesterday of excess epoxy, I turned away for just a moment to grab something, and this little guy suddenly appeared. Maybe it's a good omen?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-jkw7wvr/0/X2/i-jkw7wvr-X2.jpg)
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I know what I would name that bow. :)
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That's exactly what I've been thinking! I had another name picked out, but sometimes the universe speaks to you, and has a different direction in mind.
Originally posted by monterey:
I know what I would name that bow. :)
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I guess I should have told you to inflate the hose to keep the glass on the form when you did the hotbox run.
also, Inflate your hose to 65# or so and put each end in a bucket of water to check for air leaks.
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No worries, it was obvious to me... after I made the mistake, of course! It's epoxied now.
I did test the hose ends in water, and also left it inflated for a couple of days just to make sure there wasn't any loss in pressure that would indicate a very slow leak. Everything seems to be good to go. I think today is the day to glue up. I'll post an update later.
Originally posted by Mad Max:
I guess I should have told you to inflate the hose to keep the glass on the form when you did the hotbox run.
also, Inflate your hose to 65# or so and put each end in a bucket of water to check for air leaks.
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Good Luck...
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The glue up went pretty well. A friend assisted me, and another friend took a few photos of the process, but I haven't received those photos just yet.
After several dry fit tests, and some additional sanding, I was happy with the fit, and we epoxied it up, and clamped it in the form with the firehose inflated to 70 psi.
I put it in the heat box for 6 hours at an average temperature of 160 degrees. After 10 hours I shut the heat box off, and let it cool for another 6 hours (overnight). This morning I pulled it off the form, and then had leave to shoot a pair of tournaments with my longbow (300 and a hunter round). I shot a personal best in both, so I must have been fired up by having glued up my bow!
Here it is off the form... there was a lot of excess glue that squeezed out. In retrospect, I guess I used far more than enough, but I figured better to use a little too much than not enough.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-rzSgPQk/0/X2/i-rzSgPQk-X2.jpg)
After coming back from the range, I decided to cut off and sand off the excess epoxy. That stuff is tough! I ended up burning out a Dremel tool while trying to use a cut off bit. I didn't have the patience to wait until I could get into my buddy's shop, since he's busy for the next few days, so I just sanded the rest of it off.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-QSSq6VG/0/X2/i-QSSq6VG-X2.jpg)
I'm pretty pleased with how the Eucalyptus burl looks. I think it will look even nicer after it's sanded and a finish is applied.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-wjD4Bv9/0/O/i-wjD4Bv9.jpg)
It's pretty close to the bow I patterned it after, although with slightly thinner lams to try to come in at a lower draw weight. The space in the epoxy towards the dark lamination strip close to the belly is because that piece of wood is exactly 1.5" wide, which is my target width for that part of the riser, and right now the rest of the riser and lams in that section are slightly wider than 1.5"
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-kR9tCtP/1/O/i-kR9tCtP.jpg)
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Just a brief note to say that I am out of town for the next two weeks, so I will not be able to work on the bow until after I return home, unfortunately.
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Wow
First off, FANTASTIC work/progress on your project! Second, and you probably won't believe this, but this 'mantis' thing is spooky. Here's why:
My 11-year-old son and I have recently gotten into archery and have dived in with both feet. We went from the $30 fiberglass kid's bow with the cedar arrows to high-end compounds to getting a 'first-time bowyer's kit' from Bingham in less than 3 months. We started working on our oven a month ago and finished it in a couple of days. What a blast. Once we started on the press, we got a visit from.... wait for it.... a praying mantis. He just flew in from out of the blue (and I've never before seen this particular type of insect in this area) and landed on my press. I tried to shoo him away, but he was having none of that. I false-swatted at him--he just stared at me. I blew on him--he just ignored me. I tried to push him away with a stick--he turned and faced me and then threw his wings up in a threat like that little spitting dinosaur in Jurassic Park. So... we just waited for him to move on, which took almost an hour.
So... imagine my shock when I read your thread! My two comments are THANK YOU for the encouragement, enlightenment and entertainment AND.... you CANNOT name your bow after the Mantis because WE are!
Keep up the great work.
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Wow
First off, FANTASTIC work/progress on your project! Second, and you probably won't believe this, but this 'mantis' thing is spooky. Here's why:
My 11-year-old son and I have recently gotten into archery and have dived in with both feet. We went from the $30 fiberglass kid's bow with the cedar arrows to high-end compounds to getting a 'first-time bowyer's kit' from Bingham in less than 3 months. We started working on our oven a month ago and finished it in a couple of days. What a blast. Once we started on the press, we got a visit from.... wait for it.... a praying mantis. He just flew in from out of the blue (and I've never before seen this particular type of insect in this area) and landed on my press. I tried to shoo him away, but he was having none of that. I false-swatted at him--he just stared at me. I blew on him--he just ignored me. I tried to push him away with a stick--he turned and faced me and then threw his wings up in a threat like that little spitting dinosaur in Jurassic Park. So... we just waited for him to move on, which took almost an hour.
So... imagine my shock when I read your thread! My two comments are THANK YOU for the encouragement, enlightenment and entertainment AND.... you CANNOT name your bow after the Mantis because WE are!
Keep up the great work.
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I named my last bow form design mantis lol.
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Well it sounds like there will be several different "Mantises" out there, then!
Skyhigh315, that's a cool story, and you and your son seem to be on the fast track in archery. I wish I had started in earnest when I was 11. On the other hand, it's never to late to continue to learn and improve. I just got word today that a good friend and archery mentor of mine has just been accepted to the Resident Athlete program at the Chula Vista Olympic Training Center for Archery. He has hopes of making the 2020 team to go for the Gold in Tokyo. He started as a trad shooter in his late 20's.
As for my bow, I don't have anything new to report just yet. I was away for a couple of weeks, and now I am heading out for a few days of bowhunting.
I hope to be able to get into my buddy's shop to use his bandsaw soon... like maybe this Saturday, and I'll also have to start thinking about building a tillering tree before long. I'm not sure yet which type I will end up making.
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Okay, so just a quick post with an update. I haven't been able to get into my buddy's shop due to his hectic schedule, as he just started a new gig, and he's been slammed.
A friend of mine gave me a tip about a local "community woodshop," or "cooperative," that I looked into, and it looks great. I signed up for the safety orientation tomorrow night, and after that I can become a member and get back to work on my bow. What's been holding me up, specifically, is access to a bandsaw for the next operations I need to perform on my bow. So... I should have some some progress to report very soon, hopefully.
I guess living in a city like Los Angeles does have some advantages to offset the downsides. Here's a link to the Community Woodshop:
http://www.communitywoodshopla.com
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You will certainly need to bring your own bandsaw blade if your cutting the limbs. The fiberglass will destroy a blade in a hurry. Cant wait to see yor bow complete.
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LOL... 2nd that...
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breazyears, yes, I purchased one to fit my buddy's band saw (a Laguna 14SUV) about a month ago, in preparation. I am hoping this facility has a 14" bandsaw that it will fit!
It wasn't an expensive blade, but still. Who knows, perhaps I can return or exchange it, if it turns out not to fit. I don't think I saved the receipt, however.
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Okay, I'm finally moving forward again. So I joined the local Community Woodshop, and it's pretty great. I took the safety orientation class last night, then went in today for a couple of hours to work on my bow. Fortunately, they had a Laguna 14 SUV bandsaw, which is exactly what my buddy has in his shop, and therefore the bandsaw blade I purchased works perfectly on it.
One of the guys that runs the shop showed me how to properly swap out the bandsaw blade, and how to tension and adjust the guides, etc.
15 minutes later I completed my profile cuts on the limbs, and I re-swapped the blades.
I spent a little time on a belt sander to smooth out the cuts and to remove a little material to get very close to my final profile lines I drew on the blue tape on my bow. The last bit of sanding I intend to do by hand.
I checked the bow's centerline with a piece of hi visibility BCYX bow string material, and all looks to be straight, centered and true with the bow.
I ordered some more smooth on epoxy, because I need to attach some limb tip reinforcements, as well as some accent pieces to the riser.
I have a couple of questions about that step:
My first question is about the riser section. I'm intending to use a thin strip of Micarta (phenolic) and then a strip of hardwood on top of that, similar to the bow in the photos below next to my work in progress. The third photo shows the riser section accent pieces fairly well. Should I cut the hardwood strip in a radius profile, or do you think it will be okay to just bend and clamp a straight strip to the riser when gluing? My only concern with doing that, is whether there will be chance that it will start to separate or delaminate eventually. The radius is relatively mild, but I just wondered what most people do in this kind of scenario.
The 2nd question I have is whether or not I should put the tips and the riser near a lightbulb with some aluminum foil to help heat up just the areas near those pieces for curing, or whether I should just do a room temperature cure for those pieces?
The 3rd and final (for now) question is what grit sand paper do you guys recommend to use for roughing up the mating surfaces for the reinforcement pieces prior to epoxying?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-BRrX6xJ/0/X2/i-BRrX6xJ-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-8H2JHJs/0/X2/i-8H2JHJs-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-tQQ9VQK/0/X2/i-tQQ9VQK-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-HGn8PG3/0/X2/i-HGn8PG3-X2.jpg)
The eucalyptus burl looks pretty cool, even before finish sanding and applying a finish to the bow:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-3Cb6V2Q/0/X2/i-3Cb6V2Q-X2.jpg)
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You can glue those overlays on the riser with no worries of them popping off. On the tips and overlays I'd just let them cure at room temps and use 80 or 100 grit to rough up the glue surfaces. That's a good looking bow you have going!
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as Trux says, no worries with overlays, I make mine about .050 thick which facilitates the bending quite well, but i use 80 grit on the limb on mine to prepare. No reason, just feel safer I guess.
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Very nice work..
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Great stuff! I wish I had access to a shop like that...
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Thanks guys, and thank you Trux and bigbob, for the tips on the overlays.
One other question I have... do you recommend cutting string nocks on the tips and tillering before gluing on the reinforcement layers, and then continuing cutting the string nocks trough the new pieces after shaping/sanding, or is it better to wait to begin tillering until after gluing the reinforcements on from the get go?
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I usually cut in small nock grooves first to determine bottom and top limbs, measuring at fades and then glue on nock overlays, shaping them during tillering process.
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x2 what bob said as well. I always get my limbs bending correctly and get the nocks cut in to almost exactly where they will be after the tips are glued on. Then it is as easy as shaping them up.
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Just a quick update for today. I went to the shop to work on the tip reinforcement pieces and the riser accent pieces.
I cut the pieces out of Micarta and Bolivian Rosewood. I spent some time shaping the wood accent pieces for the belly of the riser, since I felt that those pieces will be just slightly too thick to bend properly to the contours of the riser.
I finished up the session by roughing up all mating surfaces with 800 grit sand paper.
I am just waiting for some more EA 40 Smooth On Epoxy to arrive any day now, and then I'll glue up these pieces. Next, I'll start to build my tillering tree. I have most of the hardware already, but I'm planning to make mine easily portable, so I can bring to the community woodshop to use there. I think I'll try to construct it so I can clamp it to a beam or something when using it. I'll have to work out how to have a detachable section that will have rulers & a grid.
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It is going well for you :)
Did you mean 80 grit to roughen up your mating surfaces?
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2nd that... 800 is too fine... Use 60- 80 grit...Some guys even score things with a hacksaw blade...
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No 800!! But if feathering g out to glass , 40 will make the transition less smooth. I'm gonna start using 120....
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Sorry, I meant 80 grit. I posted last night right before hitting the hay, and I guess I was tired!
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since we're on the subject of sandpaper, what do you guys like to sand to prior to spraying a finish on your bows? I'm wondering what it will take to get a nice clear "polish" to the glass, and smoothness to the wood.
I think I read some posts somewhere saying that to get a really nice finish, some wood types need to have the pores filled with something prior to spraying the finish on. I'll have to search, but I can't remember what the recommended filler material is.
Obviously I am a ways off from being ready to start working on any of the finishing stages, but I thought I'd start to ask the questions.
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Sand glass to 320 before spraying. Wood to the same.
Anything finer and the surface doesn't havew the correct 'tooth' for the varnish to adhere properly.
Yes you do need to fill the pores if you want a mirror finish. If you are happy with a matt finish then you can leave 'open' and it won't look bad visually. It you want matt and flat then yes fill.
I use a shellac based filler but others are available. Make sure what you use will be compatable with your chosen finish. Shellac works with everything :)
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I'm interested in what others use for grain fillers as well!
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I just use C.A glue for filling pores etc.don't like the stuff but it does a good job. Some times need multiple coats.
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Okay, today's update...
Thank you guys for the tips on sanding prior to applying the finish!
I went in to the shop, and started fabricating my tillering tree. I got a few ideas from various members here, and largely I am copying the one in Roy's video here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBi74lbXkRU
Thank you, Roy! That is a very helpful video, since I shoot 3 under, and had been wondering how, exactly, I should tiller my bow.
Anyway, the drill press at the shop was down, but should be back up by early next week, they said. A part broke and they're just waiting for the new part to arrive. So, I'll have to wait until next week to finish the tree, but I don't have a lot left to do on it before it's done.
In other news, my EA 40 Smooth On arrived today, so I will be gluing up the tip reinforcements in the next day or two. I also received my UBR 10 rasp (Dean Torges design).
After a lot of deliberating, I ordered some Thunderbird satin finish, along with their filler product, so we'll see how that does.
I can see light at the end of the tunnel!
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I am going from memory because its been a while...
I used some Aqua Coat to fill wenge grain that was used for accents... Wenge has pretty big pores... From what I heard I thought that Aqua Coat would be the trick... It took 3 coats and still did not fill all of the grain and if you did not sand it totally off it left a dull pale haze under the finish... In my book, that really sucks...
I used the same urethane finish that I used to spray up my bows... A couple of quick passes with a fine artist brush did the job and because it is the same finish that you use to spray there are no discolorations...
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I got a few things done on the bow since last week. I epoxied the tip reinforcements, shaped the tips and filed in my string nocks to about 85% - 90% of the depth of the bow I am trying to emulate, which is a McCullough Griffin, BTW.
I strung it up for the first time today, and took some measurements and photos, and compared it to my Griffin.
The limbs are clearly going to need some tillering work, and I'looking forward to hearing what you guys think. The first thing I should probably mention is that the Griffin is asymmetrical, as in the length of the string nocks is not equi-distant to the fulcrum of the grip. For better or worse, I chose to duplicate the distances on the Griffin, since I really like how it shoots and feels. So, for comparison, here are some measurements:
Both bows have identical limb measurements (measured along the belly of the bows):
Fulcrum of grip to bottom limb string nock = 32 1/2"
Fulcrum of grip to top limb string nock = 31 3/8"
Both bows when strung with the same string have a brace height of 8". I normally prefer it around 7 1/2", but this is the string I have at the moment, and since it's just for comparison purposes, I think it's fine.
Here is a photograph of my Griffin, strung up. The limbs look like they show a fairly symmetrical bend, or arc, and the measurements I took confirm that. The blue tape was just mark precise places to take measurements (12" and 24" from each string nock). The top limb is on the right side of the photo:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-GMf5bj4/0/O/i-GMf5bj4.jpg)
As you can see on my build, the limbs are not bending symmetrically (top limb on right side of photo):
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-VQfQBM8/0/O/i-VQfQBM8.jpg)
The tiller measurements for both bows are as follows (measuring points from string to belly of bow):
Griffin:
12" from bottom limb string nock = 3 1/4"
24" from bottom limb string nock = 7"
24" from top limb string nock = 7"
12" from bottom limb string nock = 3 5/8"
My bow build"
12" from bottom limb string nock = 4 1/2"
24" from bottom limb string nock = 7 3/8"
24" from top limb string nock = 6 3/4"
12" from bottom limb string nock = 3 1/4"
My biggest concern is that it seems like the top limb is closer to showing the proper bend or arc, with reflex, and the lower limb may be too weak from the get go, since it isn't exhibiting much reflex compared to the Griffin.
I'm not sure if I'm coming to the right conclusion, so I look forward to hearing what you guys think, and what you recommend my process to tiller this bow should be.
Anyway, here are some photos of my rough shaped/sanded tips and my string nocks, which are not cut to the full depth just yet...
Bottom tip:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-n4nG5Tr/0/O/i-n4nG5Tr.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-tn48Fkb/0/O/i-tn48Fkb.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-7jRvZnL/0/O/i-7jRvZnL.jpg)
Top tip:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-rx5Lj4G/0/O/i-rx5Lj4G.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-kj2g6CZ/0/O/i-kj2g6CZ.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-Q8KMBfc/0/O/i-Q8KMBfc.jpg)
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Do you have an I-beam in the riser? If not flip the designated limbs. Aim to get the differences in the strength of the limbs down to 1/4 inch. Lower stronger.
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It looks like the riser into the fade is much thicker towards the right side of of picture (the top),also are the limbs different lengths from the riser fades to the tips. Not sure what your riser design thoughts were, you cant add to the bottom limb so you might have to shorten the top to get tiller to work, lots of questions, good luck.
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mikkekeswick, there's no I-beam in the riser, however, because of the asymmetrical design of the limbs (length wise) and riser (shape wise), I don't know if flipping the designated limbs would work well.
Mark R, yes, the design is based on the bow pictured above mine in my last post (a McCullough Griffin), and the riser follows the shape of the riser in the original bow pretty faithfully. Also, the limbs are different lengths, apparently by design. Before starting this project, I compared my Griffin to two others that are owned by friends of mine, and they all bear the same asymmetrical limb (and riser) design.
Also, the top limb is already shorter than the bottom limb, by 1 1/8". Again, this matches the bow mine is based on.
I probably should have started with a symmetrical design for my first bow build, but oh well... it's too late for that now. Worst case scenario, if I can't get this one tillered properly, I'll consider it a learning experience and try to do better on the next one.
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Did you measure from the fades to nocks not from grip fulcrum, regardless I think you can get a bow out of that, maybe not what you had in mind but there's more than one way to skin a cat,just get the limbs tillerd better and working together.It looks like the thickness of fades are much different does'nt take much to change things, there are bows with the top limb much shorter regardless if its from grip fulcrum or fadeout to nock but with limbs working together and shoot well.
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Mark R, my earlier measurements were from grip fulcrum to nocks.
The measurements from fades to nocks is:
fade to top nock = 21"
fade to bottom nock = 20.5"
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OK the working part of the top is 1/2" more than the bottom, knowing the stack at fades to tip, (bottom versus top) will also matter but lets not get to technical at this point,you may want to shorten top limb, change grip fulcrum, or other ways to get the limbs to work better together, I think you have room to make a working bow,more to gain than to lose,keep at it, if anything your getting plenty of work experience which is what makes us better.
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OK the working part of the top is 1/2" more than the bottom, knowing the stack at fades to tip, (bottom versus top) will also matter but lets not get to technical at this point,you may want to shorten top limb, change grip fulcrum, or other ways to get the limbs to work better together, I think you have room to make a working bow,more to gain than to lose,keep at it, if anything your getting plenty of work experience which is what makes us better.
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oops.
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Sorry, disregard any notion of just shortening the top limb, may not be necessary,the top limb is stronger than the bottom,if you just shorten it the bend may be even more severe at the bottom. Things to try, perhaps narrowing the top limb starting at its fade, a little at a time and carefully sanding uniformly the belly of top limb a little at a time and checking often will help, also a different brace height leaning on the shorter side may help the strung profile.
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Ok yes I see the different lmb length and diffence in the riser.
You just need to weaken the upper limb. This can be done a number of ways. First narrowing it slightly. Then rounding the edges of the glass over well/sanding the belly.
You aren't too far off :)
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Thanks, gentlemen! Your suggestions and encouragement are very helpful. I was coming to the same conclusion, but you guys stating it with your experience makes me feel better about giving it a try.
I was looking carefully at my bow, and I think part of why the top limb is showing a bit stiff at brace is because I am slightly wider in profile than I should be. I think I neglected to sand/shape the sides quite to the line I had intended to on just the top limb. So, I'll start doing that a little at a time and checking, until I get the bend looking correct at brace. Then I'll start using the tillering tree to see how the limbs perform through the draw.
I came down with a bit of a cold starting Wednesday afternoon, and now it's kind of hit me full force. On top of that I am intending to head to Fresno, CA tomorrow with a couple of buddies to attend the Gene Foster Traditional Archery Rendezvous. I'll probably get back to work on the bow on Tuesday, since the community woodshop I joined isn't open on Mondays. I'll post an update Tuesday afternoon or evening.
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I spent a few hours on the bow today, and worked on carefully sanding the sides and the belly of the upper limb, until I got pretty close to limb symmetry when braced. It still needs a little more work, but I thought I'd wait to do any more work until I check it on the tillering tree.
I also spent a little time narrowing the slightly fat tips, and working on the fine tuning the string nocks.
After that I spent a little time working on my tillering tree, which is almost finished. I think I should be able to complete that tomorrow, and then I can check for proper tiller through the draw cycle, and make adjustments as necessary.
I feel a lot better now, seeing the bow looking a lot closer to how it should.
I also checked the draw weight, and it's currently at 43 - 44# @ 28", which is exactly in the range I was hoping for.
Here are a couple of photos of how it's looking now...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-V5NTx6n/0/X2/i-V5NTx6n-X2.jpg)
My buddy drawing it back to see the basic arc of the limbs at full draw:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-PhFfhNs/0/X2/i-PhFfhNs-X2.jpg)
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It's turning out nice
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Thank you, Mad Max! I'm certainly having a fun time making it!
Today's update is a brief one. I built a Tillering Tree, and designed in a simple method of allowing for different bow riser sections as needed down the line, assuming I continue making bows, and different types, at that.
Basically, I built a slot that accepts different blocks that are custom shaped for the bow/riser to be mounted on the tillering tree.
Here is a close up of the slot:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-z2QkrDk/0/XL/i-z2QkrDk-XL.jpg)
This is an example of the block I shaped for this bow:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-7Bc3Q7H/3/O/i-7Bc3Q7H.jpg)
The block slides in the slot like this:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-xPcMPrq/3/O/i-xPcMPrq.jpg)
Here it is fully seated:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-9WLW3Pj/1/O/i-9WLW3Pj.jpg)
Finally, a shot of bow on the tree, drawn to 28 inches:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-ZB9M27n/0/O/i-ZB9M27n.jpg)
I need to attach a panel with a grid to my tree, and recheck the bow through the draw cycle, but it looks pretty good to me so far. I think the bottom limb is just a little bit stiffer than the upper limb, since the hook on the string slid about and eighth of an inch or so towards the lower limb at full draw. I may sand the lower limb slightly, but I think I may want to cut the shelf, shape the grip and shoot it a few time stop see how it shoots, feels and sounds before I sand the lower limb.
My next step is to glue on the riser accent pieces, and then start to shape the grip after they are cured.
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I've been busy the last couple of weeks with Thanksgiving, and I just started up a new gig, so I have less time to work on the bow, now, other than an occasional evening and weekends.
I started gluing the first riser overlay tonight. Over the next few days I will glue the final riser overlay pieces, and then I can hopefully start to shape my grip one evening next week.
Nothing very exciting, but here's a pic of the current glue up:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-wT7CjxQ/0/L/i-wT7CjxQ-L.jpg)
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Looks good. I didn't read all your posts but some of them. A couple observations. After taking the bow off the form, Cut the bow to length before cleaning the glue off the sides of the limbs. Those staggered lamination and glass ends can snag on something and cause the limb to delam, especially the glass to veneer joint.
Also if the top limb is stiffer then the bottom limb. Sand the fiberglass to bring the bow into tiller. You can round the limb edges a little more and flat sand the glass. You can sand the glass quite a lot with out worrying about it. I start with either 100, 120 or 150 grit, depending on how much I need to take off.
Tillering that bow as I saw it strung up for the first time is about a ten minute process. With sand paper and a block. You don't want to start shortening limbs to bring the bow into tiller, unless it is WAY off. Have fun and good job. Chad
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Youve come a long way with that bow! Good for you, it looks great.
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Thank you, Chad and Breazyears!
Chad, thank you for those tips. I didn't know about cutting the bow to length before cleaning off the sides, but I will do that on my future builds. I brought the bow into tiller by sanding the glass, but I didn't round off the sides. I was not considering cutting the limbs shorter if there was any possible way of avoiding that.
I can see how, with experience, one could have sanded my bow to tiller in 10 minutes, but it took me a little over an hour for the sanding, because I wasn't sure how much effect a given amount of sanding was going to have. So I probably strung it to check on the tillering tree, and unstrung it to sand, at least a dozen or so times throughout the process to check how it was looking! I figured better safe than sorry, but in the end you are right. It was not a big job to get it in the ballpark.
By the way, if you read this, Chad, several guys at my local club (Pasadena Roving Archers) have bows made by you. They are very nice indeed!
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I made a little more progress last weekend. I finished gluing up the last of the overlays on my riser, and I cut my arrow shelf out and have just begun to shape the grip.
I've only started on the upper portion of the grip by the fulcrum, and I have a lot more work to do, but it's starting to feel like a bow in the hand. I hope to get some more work done this weekend. I'm slammed with work until the weekend.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-PkfVzMg/0/L/i-PkfVzMg-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-8ZmBQ9k/0/L/i-8ZmBQ9k-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-pt2J3hQ/0/XL/i-pt2J3hQ-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-kQBdqRG/0/XL/i-kQBdqRG-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-nmqz8Zs/0/XL/i-nmqz8Zs-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-Q4Qg7sV/0/XL/i-Q4Qg7sV-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-wD4LzZ9/0/XL/i-wD4LzZ9-XL.jpg)
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Looking good!
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Looking good - especially those overlays.
If I can make one suggestion, I'd say don't be afraid to round that riser some more. It will make it look less "blocky" and will feel better in the hand. You may already have this in mind since you said you still have work to do.
I just see a lot of first time bowyers have a rather blocky riser for fear of removing too much material. I'm also speaking from my own experience. My first bow looks like a 2 x 4 with the corners rounded a little bit. My buddy said it's still a bow blank - LOL!
Anyway, it's just a suggestion and make it however feels good to you. It's certainly a lot nicer than my first attempt.
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Thank you breazyears.
jsweka, thank you for your suggestion and comments, too.
Rest assured that I plan on making the grip far less blocky. I know I have a lot more shaping to do, and was always intending to.
Last weekend, I only had a couple of hours to work on the bow, and in that time I had to sand off excess epoxy from the glue up of the overlays, cut the rough shape for the arrow rest, taper and sand the overlays so that they blend in to the riser smoothly, and finally, do what I could in the remaining time to begin shaping the grip. I had hoped to get further along, but the sand ran out of the hour glass.
I plan to shape the grip much like my McCullough Griffin, which looks nice and feels great to me. I also plan on giving more radius to both the side section of the arrow shelf as well as to the shelf itself. All corners will be far more smoothed out and curved when I am finished, as opposed to looking like a slightly rounded 2x4 like it does now.
:biglaugh:
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LOL - You're rounded 2 x 4 already looks a heck of a lot better than my first rounded 2 x 4.
I've often thought about going back and reshaping that bow, but I also kind of want to keep it as is for a reminder of where I started.
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It's been harder for me to make the time to work on the bow these last few weeks with work, the holidays, and then I had the bug to get out for a couple of days of deer hunting in AZ this past week with a buddy. I ate tag soup, unfortunately, but it was still fun, as always. I had a lot of close encounters with a ton of does, and a few younger bucks, as well. The next couple of weeks should have the rut heating up and getting into full swing in the area I was in, but, unfortunately, I will be busy working.
Yesterday I spent a couple of hours working with my rasp and 80 grit sandpaper to further work out the shape of the grip. It's feeling very comfortable in my hand now, so I think it's time to shoot the bow a bit and see if I need to do any further tillering work before getting to work progressively sanding to finer grit prior to applying a finish. Weather permitting, I'm gonna try to shoot it tomorrow. It's raining here today. I think it works out perfectly that the first time I'll shoot the bow is on New Year's Day. Speaking of... Happy New Year, everyone!
Here's how it's looking now...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-LzVtB3W/1/L/i-LzVtB3W-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-S3zsLxG/1/L/i-S3zsLxG-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-ZvKX4c9/0/L/i-ZvKX4c9-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Bow-Build/n-m9jQ2M/i-hRjThs9/1/L/i-hRjThs9-L.jpg)
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Looking good!! :thumbsup:
The fine sanding and trying to get all those little tool mark scratches out can drive a bowyer nuts - at least it does me.
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Looking good so far. Probably should down size tour pics though.