Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: RedStag5728 on January 21, 2016, 07:04:00 AM
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I want to try a new style of bows, and learning that I am like 1/8 part cherokee I would like to replicate this style as a tribute and possibly a hunting bow if it shoots good enough.
I read in the TBBII that the cherokee typically used locust, Osage and Hickory for their 'D' tillered flatbow styles. However it only highlights the dimensions for the typical locust or Osage bow, but what about hickory?
I would like to keep it relatively narrow to better replicate this style (say 1 3/8" or so), but I know hickory likes to be at least 1 5/8" (1 3/4 - 2" even better). I know I could go longer with the 1 3/8" width by going longer, but I don't want to go super long as my draw is only 27".
So what would be a good Cherokee style hickory longbow? I was thinking maybe something like 1 5/8" width taper to 7/8" wide tips or so and leaving the bow like 68" ttt. What do you guys think?
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Steve Allely and Jim Hamm, in their "NATIVE AMERICAN Bows, Arrows and Quivers" show hickory Cherokee(and other Eastern Woodland) Style bows were as narrow as 1 1/8" and anywhere from 60" to over 70". There all had rectangular cross sections. If you wanted to make the limbs a little wider you can and just narrow the handle a little for comfort. I've done that with good results. These bows bent through the handle making the narrower style less stressful. I would also temper the belly to improve the compression strength of the belly. Single side nocks were also appropriate for the Eastern Woodland style bows. I have pics of locust and osage Eastern Woodland style bows but not of hickory.
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Great info Pat thanks! All of the hickory staves I have were cut from 8" diameter trees so they do have a slight crown.
I was only thinking wider due to what Tim Baker likes in a hickory stiff handle bow. So like you said with a bendy handle limbs can be narrower.
I think I'll go with 1 3/8" wide to be true to the style versus narrowing the handle, thus making it closer to like a sudbury-eastern woodland hybrid :biglaugh:
Looking forward to trying this new style out! Thanks again Pat!
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Keep the belly FLAT! ...and temper the belly. You'll love shooting it. The Eastern Woodland bendy handle bows can be quite formidable and have very little hand shock if tillered well. Tiller the mid limb areas first then bring the band back into the handle as you hit full draw. I like to feel the handle give just as I hit full draw.
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Ok, would the tillering gizmo help or should I rely on visual or taper measures? For thicknesses I was thinking maybe 5/8 through the whole bow or slight taper to 1/2 at the nocks, what do you think?
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I'd start the limbs at 3/4" at the handle and taper to 1/2" tips. A tiller gizmo should help a lot with a arch of a circle tiller.
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Sounds good to me, it'll be the first time I try a bendy handle hopefully it turns out great. With this snow storm hitting us now it'll be a good time to spend in the shop, just need to get the heater going.
Thanks again Pat, I'll be sure to post my progress. :thumbsup: :archer:
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Do stay away from the mid section of the bow til last. The leverage of the limbs will cause too much handle bending if you go there too soon.
Its been snowing and sleeting here all day and should go on til at least midnight. We have at lease 8" now with more to come.
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Will do, thanks Pat. I'll start treating it like I do the stiff handle bows and not even touch the middle 8" until last. Then once I get within a few inches short of full draw at my weight (I'm shooting for 50#), then I'll work in the handle tillering by hand.
It started here at 11:30 this morning while we were on the job. Bossman called and said to pack it in and head home before it gets too bad. Good thing we did, just driving the 30 miles to get home the truck was sliding around on the road not an hour after it started. :scared:
I haven't measured it but I know we've easily got 8 inches on the ground right now, weather man says it's going to continue until Sat night or Sunday morning, with 18-24" expected. I've started peeling the bark off and the cambium layer on the flattest crown piece of hickory I have. It only has one knot and the limb has a little snake right where the knot is. Gonna be a beautiful bow if I do my job right! :thumbsup:
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Looking forward to your progress.
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Sorry it's been so long It's been busy for me as of late, not a lot of time to spend in the shop but I do have some updates.
I've got the profile completed on the bow and am floor tillering it now. I have taken a few pictures but I am getting ready to go to work now so I'll post them when I get home this evening.
So far things are going well with the bow, I do have a kink where a knot was in the working part of the limb which may throw off the gizmo a bit, will just have to do local thickness tillering in that spot, but the rest of the limbs can be adjusted with the gizmo.
I've also started drawing and figuring out a profile for some trade points off an old circular saw blade. I am going full trad and self-gear this year. I bought me an arrow planer and have got many poplar trees in my area to make a few dozen shafts.
But now that things have kinda slowed down I'll be updating a little more regularly.
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Alrighty, photos are in...
front profile
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1290469_zpswzlzqdp8.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1290469_zpswzlzqdp8.jpg.html)
Side profile
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1310478_zpsw5jzv75k.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1310478_zpsw5jzv75k.jpg.html)
Tools
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1290477_zpsxod1dvp9.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1290477_zpsxod1dvp9.jpg.html)
Some thickness math at 2 inch intervals to get my side profile lines with gentle curves from 3/4" down to 1/2" while following the contour of the stave's front profile.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1290476_zpsbwv0ftnk.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1290476_zpsbwv0ftnk.jpg.html)
Sighting down the stave, tips kinda line up well
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1290473_zpsuq8u3kh4.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/P1290473_zpsuq8u3kh4.jpg.html)
These pictures were taken a few weeks ago, I have since trued up the side and front profiles so the stave is evened up and doesn't have the trapezoidal appearance from back to belly.
Just gotta tiller 'er now! :thumbsup:
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Nice...
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I am following along, looks like a good start
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Ok I got her bending perfectly with the gizmo to my target draw weight (50#) at about 23". How much further should I get it to draw to this weight before working the handle into it?
I was thinking about getting it to draw to 50# at about 25", then working in the handle until it reached 27" and then rounding corners slightly and sanding and shooting in for 50# @ 28". How much would the handle bend put into the draw? Or how much SHOULD it put into, I know if I make it bend too much I will have hand-shock.
Thanks in advance.
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I like to feel the handle give a little when I hit full draw. You can start working into the handle area and just see how it goes. Take it slow and exercise often and see how it feels by drawing by hand with each wood removal.
You can feel the balance of the limbs at the same time as you draw the bow.
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Ok thanks Pat, I'll give it a go when the limbs are bending at 25", I thought about it further and it just seems to me with the handle bending ever so slightly to just feel it, the handle really shouldn't add too much to the draw length.
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Ideally in this kind of bow the entire bow shares the stresses and exerts the forces. By getting the handle to give at full draw shows me that I'm getting all I can out of the stave without going over the hump. Too much bend in the handle will rob energy quickly. The leverage from the long limbs can get the handle area bending too much too early.
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Ok guys here where I am so far with it 50# @ 24" of draw and about 1 3/4" of resting set (probably mostly exaggerated due to the kink). I figured I'd post a recent picture of the bow as well as it's tiller so far.
Just a note, right out of the handle is a kink in the limb that has been there since I started this project so where it looks like it's hinged is where it is kinked. I checked the area with calipers and it is tapered properly with the rest of the limb, if anything it's actually a little stiff there.
Here she is unbraced on the tree.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_03961_zpso49xpfsm.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_03961_zpso49xpfsm.jpg.html)
Close up of the kink (filled the little hole with glue and sawdust).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_03971_zpsoryxa2vt.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_03971_zpsoryxa2vt.jpg.html)
Braced:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_03981_zpsnceb1xos.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_03981_zpsnceb1xos.jpg.html)
50# at 24"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_04001_zpsrh2krz4y.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_04001_zpsrh2krz4y.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_03991_zpsyhktbeuv.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_03991_zpsyhktbeuv.jpg.html)
How is she looking so far? According to the gizmo everything is working evenly and fine. The handle bends ever so slightly, I can barely feel it but I figure for a 28" draw or so I want to barely feel it at 24" as it may bend more at a further draw. I can always remove a little more wood there.
The only thing is worrying me is am I going to be able to get 27 or 28" out of this bow? I ask because it looks to me like the string angle on the tips are getting pretty steep. She's ~66" ttt and ~64" ntn. If not it's fine I can short draw it.
What you guys think so far?
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Here's the kink in the original picture from roughing out the stave
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/90f81f72-3033-4ad6-98de-535438294bf4_zpsxijeq82z.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/Cherokee%20D%20Bow/90f81f72-3033-4ad6-98de-535438294bf4_zpsxijeq82z.jpg.html)
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Single sided nock?
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I went with the diamond tip shoulder nocks on both ends. Since these photos I have finished her up and she draws about 53# @ 27". I just need to heat treat it, stain it, put the finish on it and wrap the grip and I'll take some pictures.
She's a pretty quick shooter, was getting between 145 and 150 out of some of my wooden arrows that I have which are not of correct spine for it. But I'm sure once I make some arrows for it that fly true, and heat treat some reflex in it, it will surely be a hunting bow for this fall.
She does have some hand shock but I think it's due to that kink making one limb dip lower than the other, hopefully heat treating and straightening will fix that.
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Hand rubbing with finely ground charcoal and oil makes a cool, natural coloration for almost any whitewood bow. Hand rubbing heats up the oil and wood allowing the oil to sink in. After a few days you should be able to add a finish over it if you want or just hand rub oil in occasionally.
Bear grease, pork grease, etc. or just veg oil will work.
Also, you need some nice cane arrows with Cherokee two fletch to go along with her.
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Interesting Pat thanks for the idea! I might just try it! I got some cane from my uncle who found it growing naturally by the Potomac river. I don't know what species it is, but I am assuming it is river cane because he said it doesn't grow taller than like 6 or 8 feet and is narrower in diameter than bamboo when fully grown and it's not as invasive as normal boo. :thumbsup:
But I'll definitely try that stain idea! I never would have thought about that! Man you guys are great! :notworthy:
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The cane your uncle has sounds like switch cane(Arundaneria tecta) one of the 3 native canes. Should make good arrows. It can become invasive but it can be controllable.
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i like the look of it so far you are doing real good whats that saying take it nice and sloooowwwww LOL!!! :biglaugh:
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Thanks Jeff! This bow has taken me about 3 months to fully complete so far! :thumbsup: :archer:
On the good side, that kink has now been flattened a bit and the hand-shock should be minimum or more tolerable at least.
Gonna give her about a week or so before stringing it back up and do some exercises on the tree and re-tillering it back to weight.
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Sounds like you still had some moisture in the stave. The quick drying caused it to check. Is the back sealed? I use shellac to seal any newly exposed back no matter how long it has been drying. The checks shouldn't hurt anything unless one runs off the limb. Super glue is what I fill cracks and checks with.
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None of them run off the sides of the limb they are just in the middle of it (both on the belly and back). I didn't seal the back with anything when the stave was drying, just the ends. On all my staves I left the bark on and sealed then ends with wood glue.
I've saturated these checks with superglue and once I get to where I am about to start using it I'll give them another coat just to be sure. I guess next time I'll use some type of oil to rub the limbs with while I am heat treating.
What oil do you guys use?
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I keep a can of Birdseye shellac on my work bench all the time just for this reason. I like shellac because it seals well, easy to use(especially a spray can), works for dry or wet heat and is easy to remove if necessary.
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thanks Pat, I will have to pick me up some.
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Ok fellas it's been a little over a week since I heat treated and just out of curiosity I strung her up and shot it. And I noticed she gained some weight and gained a good amount of speed.
I measured it and saw I was hitting 55# @ 24", and when I was shooting I was intentionally short drawing it just short of my draw length (27"). I shot it through the chrony and was getting 157-163 fps with a 550 grain arrow! :jumper:
I am really happy with the way it shoots (the hand shock was minimized), and so far all of the reflex (about 2 1/2") I put into it has come out and she is staying consistently straight (I've put about 200 arrows or so through her short drawing).
Since I am happy with the way it shoots now would it be ok to leave it heavier at my draw (I figure she's about 65# at 27" now) or should I re-tiller it back to 55#?
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Make it where it is comfortable for you to shoot, whether it be 55# or 65#.
Lots of folks scoff at these simple hunting bows thinking they are just toys. You have found out how effective they can be when well made. 157-163fps with a 550gr arrow is pretty good for a 55@27" bow of any style.
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Ok thanks Pat, I just didn't know if it was always necessary to re-tiller it after heat treating.
Before heat treating I was getting around 150 fps and was happy with that result, but getting better speeds than that is just satisfactory as it means I did a decent job at building it. I never doubted a self-bows efficiency, it's that I'm excited that I managed to make one that was efficient enough to hunt with.
My first hickory self-bow (the second in my signature) is a mediocre performer. I wouldn't take it out in the deer woods; however it would be a great target/small game bow. This one is going to be my deer hunting bow and I am looking forward to it!
i'll post some pictures of the final result soon!
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looking forward to seeing it sounds like it came out just right well done Buddy :clapper:
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Nice work Randy. It is amazing what a good thorough heat-treating can do.
Before heat-treating, I will keep a bow in the hot box (100F and 30% RH) for a couple of days, just to keep the moisture content low going into the heat treat. I think this helps with avoiding the checking while cooking you experienced. But when it does happen, I do as you and Pat and reach for a bottle of super glue.
Looking forward to seeing pics of it.
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Thanks Carson and Jeff! I haven't made a hot box yet, I'm still working on getting more experience and doing better with self bows before I start investing money and gadgets with tri-lams.
The loft on our detached garage is the perfect place for seasoning, it stays hot during the warm months and I can open the windows for ventilation. All our stored trim and wood (red oak lumber) is up there, and the MC for my hickory stays usually around 7% however I do believe I took it out for a little while and shot it a few times outside before treating it, so I'm sure I raised it to about 9%, that's probably where I messed up.
Oh well, forever learning with these things. Especially when you have such great help from experienced and knowledgeable individuals like Mr. Pat B to answer all your annoying rookie questions for you! I couldn't have done it without ya sir! :notworthy:
This makes the fourth self bow I've made and third shooter.
Pictures are coming soon, I've got a few more coats of tung oil to put on it and I've got a little something to go along with it for the picture that hasn't come in yet. A few more days and it'll be ready for it's selfie! :archer:
Going tomorrow while on the job to cut some bamboo. So I should have some 'boo arrows to be seasoned and ready to go before hunting season in october. I just need to get the jump on making some trade points from my ol' circular saw.
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Ok guys I got pictures.
Bow and quiver
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_04011_zpsckflvx3o.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_04011_zpsckflvx3o.jpg.html)
Toasted belly
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_04101_zpsfxhlb4fx.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_04101_zpsfxhlb4fx.jpg.html)
Back
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_04081_zpsgjwo7e7c.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_04081_zpsgjwo7e7c.jpg.html)
Indian Symbol "Arrowhead": Symbol for alertness
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_04071_zpszmweua6s.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_04071_zpszmweua6s.jpg.html)
Draw weight
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_04061_zps2vxwgduo.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_04061_zps2vxwgduo.jpg.html)
Indian Symbol "Deer Track": Symbol for Plentiful Game
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_04051_zpsvjhznugl.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_04051_zpsvjhznugl.jpg.html)
Symbols and draw weight were woodburned using a woodburning tool (first drawn with pencil), arrowhead and deer track are indian symbols; I'm using as luck charms.
Bow was stained with the charcoal dry rub suggestion from Pat B (thanks again for the idea!) back was mildly stained but the belly took it well! It really defines the growth rings.
Quiver is a basket quiver I purchased through 3rivers to go along with the eastern woodland indian style! And arrows are marble dipped douglas fir arrows I made for my Redstag but fly really well out of this self-bow so they will be the arrows for it until my bamboo seasons.
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Finally the money shot:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/P4060479_zpsqghouqda.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/P4060479_zpsqghouqda.jpg.html)
I've decided to give her a name as well! Actually I've had this name picked out before I started the build, but I was waiting to see if it would fulfill it's name or not; and it has!
"Adahy" (Ah-Dah-Hey) Cherokee for "Lives in the Woods"
http://babynames.merschat.com/name-meaning.cgi?function=View&bn_key=76757
It lived in the woods before it became a bow, and now it will live in the woods with me hunting! :readit:
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Good for you! Looking forward to pics this fall. Cane arrows with Cherokee two fletch would set the combo off perfectly.