Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: tsorenson on December 31, 2015, 12:26:00 AM
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I joined Tradgang a few years ago when I bought a Samick Sage recurve. I enjoyed shooting it, but I always felt a pull toward making my own bow. Like many of you, I imagine, I put it off for quite sometime because the timing wasn't just right or I didn't have space or I didn't have time, etc. Finally, this Christmas I asked for a few tools and I figured I'd stop making excuses and just dive into the process. I'm not an experienced woodworker and fear that I'm setting myself up for failure, but I hope to have a grand time while doing it!
I'm using Sam's red oak guide from Poor Folk Bows. Today, I went to Home Depot to purchase the wood with the intent of doing a red oak bow, however I dug through their limited stock of red oak and wasn't impressed. Finally I noticed a stack of hickory nearby and rummaged through it - my limited knowledge tells me this is still not a good board, but I think it'll work. Thoughts? I've cut it to 72" and laid out the pattern. Between being a daddy and work, I don't imagine this project will go quickly, but I hope to tap into the collective wisdom found here and produce something usable.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc11b3127cceeaa869c3f43b00000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620151231052212576.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc11b3127cceeaa93e5d156a00000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620151231052312804.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks pretty good.
If you decide to back it then rawhide,linen or silk would be my choice.
72 inch is very long! What is your drawlength and what draw weight do you want?
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Wow! I'm impressed. Your Home Despot has hickory. Mine can't spell Hickory, let alone carry any!
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Sams build alongs are great, they taught me a ton, you can't go wrong. If you decide to back it, I wouldn't use fiberglass tape though, just my preference. There are lots of other readily available materials I prefer. I used thin canvas backing on my first 3 bows, and it worked well and looked nicer than fiberglass tape imho.
Also, make yourself a gizmo or two, I use a long one and a short one.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047
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72" long does seem really long when I hold the wood in my hand - would you suggest something different? I am aiming for 50# at 28" as I want something that could take down an elk. Length suggestions are welcome!
I was planning on using Sam's guide as a starting point - I really didn't like the look of the fibergalss tape, so I had actually purchased a yard of digital camo fabric from Walmart already - it feels like thin denim, but it said "Remnants from undetermined fabric content". It definitely feels like denim, though and has no visible stretch so I'm assuming it'll be okay? My wife has some linen she'll let me use if I need to.
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How wide are you planning to build the bow?
I would probably be going 68" and width of at least 1.5" preferably 1.75"-2".
2" Is definitely wider than you need, but for a first bow a good bit extra wood won't hurt. I think 1.75" is probably close to ideal.
Never shot an elk, but my experience shooting deer leads me to believe it's as much or more about a heavy arrow than it is a heavy bow. First deer kill with grad gear was 43# @ 25" with 500gr wood arrow and I'm sure I didn't get to full draw. Penetrated more than 12". So anyway, I think if you can make a well tillered 50# bow you should be fine.
Lastly, get some good pictures of the board. A backing really may not be necessary, and honestly, and fabric backing or even rawhide will add mass and not any more draw weight so it will slow the bow down. If I was worried I would drop the draw weight a few pounds before i added fabric if the board looked good. At the end of the day it's going to be the bow with minimal limb mass that shoots the best, not the one with the highest draw weight. But that's just one man's opinion, and I admit to never having built a hickory board bow, although I enused many hickory backings.
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I haven't made a selfbow yet, so I don't know much about them, but couldn't you rip a 1/8" or 1/16" strip from that board, flip it over and use it for a backing?
I thought I heard about doing that some time ago.
Dave.
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In regards to the grain - man it's hard to get pictures of the grain! Here are three pics in succession along side what I intend to be the belly.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc10b3127cceeaaa7e94ecd300000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620151231160610563.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
left limb to center
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc10b3127cceeaab87a88c4700000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620151231160624176.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Center to right limb
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc10b3127cceeaaa29762db200000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620151231160642363.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
right limb tip
Do these help with seeing the grain? I'd prefer not to back the bow at all because the natural wood looks best in my opinion, but the grain has a wave in it that I'm concerned about. Thanks all!
Oh, the bow is 1.75" wide, tapered to .5" nocks.
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Tom - what part of Nebraska are you located?
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Sidney.
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Dang. That is on the other end of the State - if it was closer I would invite you to come over and I would help you get started.
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What does the side grain look like?
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mwosborn - that would have been awesome.
Pat - I think it looks okay? The pics below are as good as I could get.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc10b3127cceeaabedcd8c1700000030O20AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160101042108991.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc10b3127cceeaab9cb7cccd00000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160101042137605.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Roughed out the sides and belly. Next step is to glue on the riser and build a tiller tree. I also followed some of the advice on here and took it down to 68".
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df23b3127cceeb50ac4b563400000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160102192102582.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df23b3127cceeb509b57979b00000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160102192136414.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
I'm not sure if you can see it real well, but the pencil is pointing to a spot where I took off too much wood on the side - will this be a problem? Is it fixable?
Happy New Year, all!
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I wouldn't worry about it, especially if it's within a foot of the tips. I always end up narrowing that last foot or so towards the end of the tillering process when I narrow the tips to 3/8". I like to leave a hair more thickness there until after I narrow the tips just to be safe.
Tying a piece of string to one tip and stretching it to the other one to make sure your tips are in line with the handle is a good idea.
A little grain run off on hickory doesn't bother me either.
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Thanks, all. So I glued on the riser tonight and it looks like I'll be ready for long-string tillering soon. So...am I crazy to use 550 paracord? Some say it works well, others swear it's been the downfall of their bow. Does the fact that I'm working with hickory make paracord any better or worse of an option? I was ready to buy a tillering string, but didn't feel like springing $25 after shipping charges. Thoughts?
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I've heard that paracord is pretty stretchy, but if that's all you have it'll probably be okay for the long string part. I'm in the process of switching over from B50 to D97 for my strings and have a lot of B50 that I'll never use up. If you want, I'll send you a B50 tillering string no charge. Just PM me your address.
I don't think the wood type matters as far as the paracord goes.
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Thanks for the build along I am busy with a kids bow for my daughter(actually my first bow) from Hickory and I made the glue on riser to short :banghead: I did not focus well on 4est trekker`s build and did not see the bigger picture but I will make it work. I will back the bow with silk, it is kind of expensive on this side but its all for safety lesson learned. Martin
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Buy a spool of B50 and make your own strings. You will need a tillering string and a proper string. Sorry but paracord is not a good idea. You want as close to no stretch as possible.
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I tried paracord when I was starting out, it doesn't work well at all. Got myself a proper tillering string and never looked back. The paracord has WAY too much stretch to be useful as a tillering string imo. You'll be much happier with a b50 or ff tillering string, it will save you some headaches.
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Sounds like I'd better heed the prevailing wisdom!
Takefive - what a generous offer...this community is awesome! I will PM you.
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I use para cord for an early long string. Once I get to brace I build a string for the bow.
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Alright, so I roughed out the handle tonight and now it's starting to look like something other than lumber - this is fun! I'm not sure how I feel about walnut, but I think it sure does look pretty next to the hickory.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df25b3127cceeb5d9d20652800000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160105041704216.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df25b3127cceeb5d0cd6250e00000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160105042135805.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
So now I'm at the stage where I have to make up my mind - do I back this bow or not? It's my first one and I'd hate to break it...on the other hand, wood is beautiful and I'd hate to cover it up with something. So here are a couple more photos and I'd welcome any and all thoughts on whether you think I should back this thing (I understand it's difficult to say one way or the other via pictures...)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df25b3127cceeb5dcf86e49700000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160105041909583.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Here's looking from the handle to one limb.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df25b3127cceeb5c8756c42f00000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160105042005300.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
And here's a look at the other limb. You can also see in this picture the spot I tried pointing out earlier in this thread where I removed too much wood.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df25b3127cceeb5d7cd6253600000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160105042034353.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Finally, here's a look at the side grain. I chose this picture because you can see a spot just below center where the grain runs off. I'm not really sure what to look for on side grain, but this seemed important. You can ignore the pencil mark - especially ignore the fact that they don't even line up. :)
What do y'all think? Thanks for all the help thus far!
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I wouldn't back it, but that's just my opinion and it's your bow, not mine. Hickory can tolerate some run off, but if you'd feel safer backing it, go ahead and back it. That walnut handle will look nice.
I mailed the string today. I put a long center serving on it and there's a brass nock in with it. I just guessed going off a 68" bow of mine. If it works out, you'll be able to shoot some arrows until you get a permanent string for it.
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I have never backed a hickory bow, and haven't had one break yet. That said, there is nothing wrong with a backing, I backed all my first bows. You want the side grain to run straight the entire length of the bow, with no run off. What draw weight are you shooting for? The Traditional bowyer's bible has a diagram of what draw weights can be expected with certain amounts of run off. I'm just guessing without seeing the board better, but I'd bet you'd be ok without a backing.
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Takefive - Thank you much! I guess I could just take the quote in your signature to heart, because that's my biggest fear with backing it (making it ugly). Now I know there's no such thing.
Jomohr - I'm shooting for 50#. If I can get =/- that by 3-5 lbs., I'd be happy.
Additional question - I understand hickory can get sluggish - at least I've heard that said about it. Will backing it cause it to be more so?
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At 50 lbs with a good tiller I wouldn't back it. Hickory is said to get sluggish if it takes on too much moisture or too much set. It is best to keep the moisture content of hickory around 7-8% I believe.
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You're welcome, Tom. Jonathan is right about hickory performing best at a lower MC. Good time of the year to make one with the air being drier.
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So Greg's string showed up this week - what an awesome guy! I cut nocks tonight...I see I need to practice this. Hope this doesn't ruin the bow? Looks like I cut them too deep and they aren't exactly lining up. Any tricks for this step?
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df29b3127cceeb45d939435400000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160109051840390.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Went to put it on the tiller stick and found out I need another place to put the tiller stick. I have it hanging from the ceiling joists and there's an air duct blocking my view of the bow. Concrete walls and I'm not sure if I want to poke holes in the wall. I'll figure out something.
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Up on the tillering stick. Long story as to why it's built the way it is...let's just leave that alone. :)
Anyway, it's up...but I don't know what I'm looking at. Do I just need to take a lot more wood off both limbs to get them bending? In realtime I would have sworn the left side was bending more than the right, but this picture looks like the right is bending more than the left. Shadows are terrible. Can anyone decipher what's going on?
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df28b3127cceeb47a4e55b0200000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160109170025162.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Here it is pulled a little further. I gotta find a different place to do this, I think. Shadows are awful. This is only being pulled 2" after the string gets taught. Am I right in my assessment that both limbs are just way too stiff, still? I'm afraid I didn't take enough wood off while roughing out the belly.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df28b3127cceeb4634957b7600000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160109173604422.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Alright, I was pulling 14 pounds just to get a couple inches of flex on the tips. I decided to rough out the belly some more so have peeled a ton of wood off. Will work some more on it tonight/tomorrow.
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You're at the most intense part of making a bow right now, so be patient. I have to constantly remind myself to slow down and not be tempted to rasp off too much at once when I'm at the stage you are now. Make a few passes with the rasp, check how the limbs are bending on the tree and repeat, over and over. Gets a little tedious, but it's much easier than having to deal with a hinge caused by rasping off too much at one spot.
The long string will make the outer limb area appear stronger than it really is, so be careful not to take off too much wood there. When you get the bow braced, the tips will bend more than they do on the long string.
Here is a good post from PA about the long string:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,47102.0.html
Do you have a gizmo for tillering? Do a search on here for "gizmo" if you don't, and make one. Nothing has helped my tillering more than that thing.
I always add a tip overly when I narrow the tips to 3/8". By putting the string groove in the overlay, you don't have to cut in deep side nocks.
Keep us posted and good luck!
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Thanks for the link - good info! I hear what you're saying...but I just realized that I had my scale set on kg - I set it to lbs. and it's pulling 35# to go 3". I think I have a lot of wood to pull off still! Is that correct?
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It does sound like your heavy yet.
Just be carefull to remove it inthe right places, usually near mid limb first.
The tillering gizmo will be a big help but you will need to peg the string at a low draw length to check it.
Main rule is not to draw past your desired draw weight during tillering.
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I was thinking of using a variation of the long-string tillering process in the link above...I am paranoid of drawing it too heavy, so was thinking of pulling it to 45# (my target is 50#) and just keep pulling wood off from there until I'm within 5 inches of draw length. Then brace it and go from there.
Thanks for all the reminders not to pull too much off the tips - I had been going pretty heavy on them, so I'll make sure to pay attention to that going forward.
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Might be too far before a shorter string is used.
Once the tips are moving around 6 inches of verticle travel on the tree you can try a low brace.
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Macbow - I don't think I'm doing a good job of explaining myself...and to think I write for a living! :) I'm not planning on bracing it yet - not close! I decided to try the long-string tillering that is described in the PA link Greg posted. It seems to be going well so far. Here it is - 45# at 14"...which I think is about 6" of actual tension. My shoulders are really sore tonight from working the Surform!
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df28b3127cceeb468253fadb00000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160110035701836.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Looks like you're off to a good start. You can rasp the mid inner limbs as long as you're careful not to take off too much near the handle fades. I like to keep the very inner limbs a little stiff until I can brace the bow, even if it is just a taut string with no actual brace height. The taut string will give you a truer picture of how the limbs are bending than you get with the long string. From that point on, I use the gizmo and try to keep an even bend until I can brace the bow at 3", then 4", etc.
Steve Gardner from the PA post probably uses the long string longer than most guys would think of doing. Usually at 20" on the long string, my bow is ready to be braced. His method has a lot of merit IMO, though. Tough to doubt a guy who has made 1000 more bows than I ever will. :)
That B50 string will stretch when you first try to brace your bow. You'll probably have to shorten your string in small increments until it holds.
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If you have a cabinet card scraper it is easier and more precise compared to surform.
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I would have to agree with takefive regarding going slow at this point. I got caught out going too fast with my second bow.
On the bright side, it was light enough to get my daughter into shooting a bow.
Macbow's advice regarding a cabinet maker's scraper is definitely worth thinking about. I made a couple out of old recip saw blades that are fairly flexible and work pretty well. They need sharpening a bit more often than the real thing, but they do work.
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I'm out to 19" on the long string. Planning on getting one more inch before I put a low brace on it as per Greg's advice. I've got a couple small flat spots on the left side...and does it look like a hinge coming off the left side about 10" off the riser? I didn't notice that downstairs, but the picture makes it look like something going on there. I've also got extremely stiff tips still as it seems people had been saying to stay away from them till I get it braced - should I continue with that plan, or should I take some wood off the tips? I'm using a short block of wood to help with finding flat spots and hinges and I thought it was helping a lot, but looking at this picture...I'm not so sure.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df35b3127cceeb49b1466d4e00000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160115052805290.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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First rule of tillering wood bows is to always pull it to the draw weight you intend it to be when finished. If you want 50# then always pull it to 50#. If you pull less during tillering you will almost certainly end up under weight. As you remove wood the bow will obviously bend further until you get to full draw.
The only exception to this rule is if you see a weak or stiff spot show up....then you don't pull any further until you have it fixed. Once it's fixed work slowly back up to pulling your intended finished weight.
You can usea luggage scale (cheap nowadays) or a set of bathrooom scales - onto which you put your tillering sticks base as you pull down.
So onto your bow as it is 0 there is a weak spot about 10 inch or so from the left fade. The right limb is looking the same but not as bad.
I don't agree with tillering this part of the limb then that part as you progress. My aim when making a bow is to get the tiller perfect from the outset and then try to maintain that the whole way through tillering. Perfect tiller could also be described as having a perfect taper. Get used to sliding your fingers up and down the limb after removing any wood - use them as a set of thickness calipers! Your fingers (when trained to it!) can detect tiny imperfections that your eye or measuring will find hard to detect. If you get say the inner limbs working with stiff tips then even at a short drawlength you are overstressing the wood on the inner limbs. Why would you want to do that? Bear in mind that the long string will make the tips look a look a little stiff compared to the same bow braced but that is easy enough to factor in because it's only a little difference.
So for now stay well away from those inner limbs and get the outer limbs bending. Then post another picture. Also shorten yout string until you have to bend the bow a tiny bit to get it in the nocks.
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Awesome information - thank you kindly! I thought I was being cautious in pulling under my intended draw weight, but what you said makes complete sense. I will change that up going forward.
I do have a scale I've been using - I think it's even advertised as a bow scale...regardless it seems to do a nice job so long as I remember to set it to lbs. instead of kg!
So are you thinking starting about mid-limb and working down to the tips? Possibly an inch or two to the middle from mid-limb? That's the area it looks like to me that the bend needs to start increasing, but my eyes are new to this. I'll also try shortening the string.
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Yep that's it. Just remember now that to drop your bows weight by half you only need to take off an 1/8th of the thickness......slowly, slowly wins the race ;)
Post plenty of pics and we'll help you get to full draw without any problems :)
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If your outer limbs are that stiff, by all means do some careful scraping on them. A 6 inch block is a good length to check for weak or stiff spots. Someone on here told me to mark the weak areas in pencil and write NO NO there and that works for me. On the stiff areas I scribble pencil lines and then take them off with my scraper. And repeat. It's just a good way for me to focus on where to scrape and where not to.
Are you close to bracing it on a taut string?
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Thanks to everyone who has been so kind and patient with their advice! I think I need to do a better job of roughing out next time because I was having to take so much wood off for so long that I was starting to wonder why everyone said I needed to go slow at this point...well, the last few days I'm starting to see that it isn't taking much wood removal to make a big difference. I've been using a block of wood about 3" long - should I try and get a longer piece to check weak/stiff spots, Greg?
So here is the progress from tonight. On the left side, I stayed away from the handle by about 12-14". On the right side, I did the same for most of the work, but did work all the way up to the handle for a few strokes. I abandoned the rasp and went back to the surform - I seem to be much more consistent with the surform. To my untrained eye, I think the right side looks pretty decent? The left side needs a bit of work from about mid limb on out to the tip? I put a tight string on it (just had to bend the tips a very small amount)and this is pulling 48# at 20".
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df37b3127cceeb75cfabddcb00000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160117041008547.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Yeah work on that left limb, don't touch the right. Get em bending evenly before pulling it further. I try to keep my tiller as even as possible, if I see an imbalance I correct it before pulling further. I strongly recommend making a tillering gizmo. Set it for the weakest spot on the weaker limb, then use it on both limbs until they even out. DO go slowly, it's easy to take wood off, pretty hard to put it back on. It may take a while on that left limb, but it will be worth it. Then try to keep them bending evenly as the draw length progresses. I hope this makes sense, this is what has worked for me.
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I'm seeing what you're seeing; the right limb looks pretty good and the left could come around a little more. Think I'd stay away from mid limb on the right one, esp. until you get the left bending more. A 6" long block is the way to go. If you drill a hole in the center of it and twist a pencil into it, you've got the tillering gizmo. Run it along the limbs and the pencil marks will show the stiff areas. Personally, once the bow is at low brace I use a scraper or very fine rasp. To each their own, though. Go easy with the surform now that you're getting close. :)
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Once they start bending more evenly, always readjust the gizmo as hinges may start to bend less. You will notice the gizmo start to mark the entire limb, then it is time to readjust or reset it to the weakest spot. The goal is to get it so the gizmo doesn't mark at all, then your tiller is perfect.
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I wholeheartedly agree with using a gizmo. Great tool! However if you keep tillering for an 'even bend' or another way of putting it is that the gizmo touches along the entire limb then you would have have perfect tiller for a pyramid bow....not this bow. If you guys look back on page one where the OP shows the bows width profile you will see that the limbs are parallel width for a good chunk of their length then taper into the tips.
This width profile needs what is called an elliptical tiller. Eg. as you progress along the limb from handle to tip the bend should increase with the last 8 - 10 inches being stiffer.
The reason behind this is that with your width taper you will notice that the limb tapers in thickness too. The amount of bend and therefore the overall tiller should be determined by the woods thickness at any given point. Thicker wood can't bend as far as thinner wood. With a bow we are aiming to bend the wood to the point where it starts to show a little set so these limits are important.
A pyramid bow which tapers in straight lines from the fades to the tips doesn't need any real thickness taper (because it does it's tapering in width)so it's 'perfect tiller' is an arc of a circle with all parts of the limb bending the same amount. Tillering so that a gizmo touches the whole limb equally will give you this.
So onto your last photo! The right limb is looking better now but still has the same problem - it is weak about 6 -8 inches out from the handle to mid limb. You still need to get the mid to outer limbs bending more. The left limb is still the same too but not as bad as the right limb and it is stiffer overall than the right.
So you need to correct these weak spots or else you will start getting set there and nowhere else. Now is the time that going slowly will make or break this bow!
When you remove wood you are exposiong wood that hasn't felt much compression and will act stiffer than it actually is. You need to pull the bow to it's tillered to length about 20 - 30 times before your changes will show the bows true new shape. So plenty of exercising it between wood removals is very important.
You have very little wood to play with now so be very careful and make sure you have a 'plan' before removing anymore!
Also another tip now is to keep taking the string off and looking at where in the limbs any set is showing up. If it's all in one area then sure as eggs is eggs that area is weak! The wood will tell you how to tiller from now on if you watch carefully. :)
Good luck.
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Yes, the gizmo has its limitations so I've provided a link that discusses them. What I mean by an "even bend" is a smooth arc without hinges or obvious weak areas whether the tiller is elliptical or arc of circle. Using the gizmo with some thought regarding the bow's profile will give you that.
You're doing great on your first bow, Tom. Go easy with that surform :) When I get to the final tillering, it's a scraper and 60 grit sandpaper for me. Tillering your first bow is tough enough without the added distraction of a chorus of well meaning guys telling how they think you should do it. "Too many cooks..." so I'm l leaving the kitchen. ;)
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047;p=1
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Awesome guys. I'm sitting on the bow project for a while as I am needing a longbow stringer - it's on order from Amazon right now. So in the meantime I have a question for you all:
Since I've been using a surform plane I've got scrape marks all over the belly. I know I don't want to take wood off the entire belly anymore, but I'm wondering if I should sand all the marks off the belly now before advancing any further as I imagine sanding those marks out will weaken the limbs. My thinking is that if I wait to sand them out, I'll end up under weight for sure...I might end up under anyway, but this seems like it gives me the best chance? Once I sand the marks out, I would just keep using sandpaper to finish the tiller. Does that sound like an okay plan? Or do I need to correct the tiller before doing anything more at all?
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Damn Mike you are long winded. :) LOL but I agree with you. The gizmo is a great asset for tillering, however it has limitations with certain bow designs. Use it wisely and learn from experience.
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I would sand 'em out. I string my bows by putting the bottom limb tip against my instep and pulling the handle toward me while pushing the top limb away. You'll get the hang of it after a couple of times.
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mikkekeswick - when you talk about set showing up without the string on, you're talking about areas where the bow bends towards the belly, correct? I have some of that going on at a spot about 10 inches from the tip on the right side, but don't notice it anywhere else. The reason I ask for clarification is because nothing else about this tiller makes me think that spot 10" from the tip is weak - the entire tip seems stiff. Anyway, I will probably sand all the tools marks off the limbs this week and hopefully my stringer will come late in the week so i can start working on stiff spots over the weekend. (that is how I take out hinges, correct? I need to removed the wood from stiff areas around the hinge and/or weak spots?)
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Yep. Set is permanent deformation of the wood or crushed wood cells on the belly.
The key to using this method is to trace the outline of the back onto something and then use that as a reference as you progress with drawlength.Basically as you tiller some set will show up - that's not a bad thing it's just the way it is :)
What matters is that you distribute that set along the bows limbs correctly.
You want little to non in the inner limbs, a little starting to show mid limb and the rest out towards the tips.
Any set in the inner limbs (by overstressing the wood there) will show up as a large deflection at the limb end which in turn has neghative effects on energy storage etc...
But anyway as you progress with your tiller you may miss the startings of weak spots by just concentrating on the bend but if you also keep a close eye on where any set then these areas will become apparent.
Really it's just another 'tool' to use to get your bow bending correctly. It's also never wrong! It took me a while to learn how useful it is but once you get the hang of it then you can tiller any limb shape or profile simply by watching the wood and how it reacts.
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Picture time...I worked most of the day - I'm either being extra cautious with taking too much wood off or I'm just the world's slowest at tillering. I figure I've spent over 15 hours tillering and today I just hit 22" (it's fully braced now.) Mainly I just worked on getting the left limb bending as much as the right...as you're about to see, I went a little too far. However, I think the bend is looking pretty good? I made a gizmo and it seems o agree with this thought, although the eye test tells me something isn't quite right. Your thoughts are welcome!
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df03b3127cceeb788c34c74700000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160122182133732.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Start of the day - left limb was still stiff.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df03b3127cceeb78a93487cd00000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160123010504641.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Midday - both limbs bending about the same amount and according to the gizmo the right limb was bending almost perfectly. I didn't touch it again till just a few minutes ago. Left limb had some flat spots.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df03b3127cceeb789f79879b00000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160123010530822.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
And the final pic of the day. Left limb is now bending slightly more than the right. According to the gizmo, both limbs are bending pretty well, though. I'm only at 22", so still have another 6" to go.
Oh - tradgedy struck today, too...tillering stick fell off the counter while the bow was in it at full draw. The string came off the stick and I feared the worst, but I didn't notice any chips or crack...hoping I dodged a bullet?
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Was feeling under the weather again today, so decided to buckle down and crank this thing out. Here it is - 53# @ 28". It took 1-5/8" set on one side and 1-3/8" on the other. It doesn't have a positive tiller - measured 6.5" from belly to string on both sides of the fade, so not sure if that'll be a problem because I shoot split finger? Anyway:
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6df02b3127cceeb7a4b945e0000000030O00AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160123232206853.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Tough to see because of the lack of contrast, I guess. Having never done it before, I guess I don't really know if this is good, bad or otherwise, but it looks serviceable to me. I pulled it to 29" just to be sure there wouldn't be any problems on an overdraw. Unless someone points out a big problem that needs fixed, I'm willing to call it finished. Need to shape the handle, stain it and finish it. Then the fun begins!
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So I want to cut a rest - Sam's build along says he cut it 1.25" above center...is that about right? I already formed my grip so that the top of my hand is pretty much on center and having the arrow 1.25" above that looks silly. Should I change my grip? And should the arrow shelf be cut 1.25" above center? BTW, I shoot split finger.
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I wouldn't! Simple answer!
Cutting shelves can be done but it means you are violating the grain severely right where the maximum stress is. Do you want to risk this bow?!?
Another option is to glue on some pieces of leather. Soak them in the thinnest superglue you can find and then shape them for your rest.
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And that can be done without wrapping the handle? Also, it's 1.25" above center a good place for the rest?
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I'd put the rest at the point where the top of your hand balances the bow the best. If it's right at the center line, I'd put it there.
I don't cut in a shelf either, but I've seen enough bows made by experienced bowyers who do to know that it can be done. If you cut it in too deep, though, and you don't have enough width or thickness of wood to support it, it will break.
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So I didn't cut a rest, I added a strip of leather from my 4 year old's boots that didn't fit him anymore. I'm not crazy about the way it looks, but it seems to work swell. Today I fired my first shots and recruited said 4 year old to record the evidence:
https://youtu.be/gH32h_1gKpQ
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Nice work :thumbsup:
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Great job! Always awesome to fire first shots off a new bow!
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Thanks guys! Today I put some stain on it...I think it looks pretty nice, but I can't seem to take a picture of it that does it justice. Oh well...that doesn't stop me from taking pictures anyway. :)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6dc20b3127cceeb16e59e6be600000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160201235607085.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6dc20b3127cceeb17a6d68a6b00000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160201235633722.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6dc20b3127cceeb17626e8ab100000030O10AbOW7JuzZtHIPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00904337279620160201235654812.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Great!
Well done on making a functioning bow :)
It sounded good on your video :)