Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Ismail on December 16, 2015, 04:12:00 PM
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Thanks to everyones input and advice, successfully made my first Hickory longbow.
Now want to make a Bamboo backed Ipe reflex deflex bow.
Below are my 2 Ipe planks. To my untrained eye the grain looks nice and straight on both.
What do you all think? Which one should I use?
(http:// [url=http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/16122015050_zpskq7xh2hv.jpg.html] [img]http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/16122015050_zpskq7xh2hv.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
(http:// [url=http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/16122015048_zpsf6vnd9me.jpg.html] [img]http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/16122015048_zpsf6vnd9me.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
(http:// [url=http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/16122015052_zps0toji7km.jpg.html] [img]http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/16122015052_zps0toji7km.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
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Doesn't look like ipe to me, at least not the ipe I've used.
From what I can see the planks look good to me. Are you doing a "Z" splice at the handle?
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I've had some with similar colour but they do look a bit 'funny'? Maybe it's some of the plantation ipe.
How dense are they? Cut off a little piece and see if it sinks in water. Do you have a picture of the end grain?
Ipe is a very stiff wood and making a r/d bow out of it is going to be tough if you don't use a core. Using a core would mean that your belly piece of ipe would be thinner and therefore more flexable. These thinner lams will then conform to your form much better and you will have less chance of starving your lams of glue.
Another good idea with these bows is to use a powerlam. This will guarantee that you will never run into the problems of risers 'popping' off. About 1/4 inch thick and 16 long is about right.
Vol 4 of the Trad Bowyers Bible has a great chapter on r/d lam bows. I highly recommend reading it.
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Originally posted by Pat B:
Doesn't look like ipe to me, at least not the ipe I've used.
From what I can see the planks look good to me. Are you doing a "Z" splice at the handle?
Pat, Z splice is above me at the moment.
The planks are 2m long so thought will make a normal 1 piece reflex deflex.
Hopefully these planks are Ipe, thats what I ordered. Normally used for decking here in SA.
Planks are quite heavy also.
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Originally posted by mikkekeswick:
I've had some with similar colour but they do look a bit 'funny'? Maybe it's some of the plantation ipe.
How dense are they? Cut off a little piece and see if it sinks in water. Do you have a picture of the end grain?
Ipe is a very stiff wood and making a r/d bow out of it is going to be tough if you don't use a core. Using a core would mean that your belly piece of ipe would be thinner and therefore more flexable. These thinner lams will then conform to your form much better and you will have less chance of starving your lams of glue.
Another good idea with these bows is to use a powerlam. This will guarantee that you will never run into the problems of risers 'popping' off. About 1/4 inch thick and 16 long is about right.
Vol 4 of the Trad Bowyers Bible has a great chapter on r/d lam bows. I highly recommend reading it.
Will take the end grain pics tomm and post them.
Dont have too much knowledge of doing lams.
Will hickory be ok as a backing? Have bamboo and hickory at hand.
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I like bamboo with Ipe.
But hickory will work. What weight is your target?
For a 50 pound at 28 inches draw a 3/8 inch slat will work,and bend,on the form ok. About 1 1/4 inch wide at the handle and fades. Power lam works well. Bamboo should be thinned well.
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On that Ipe is looks light colored to me. The good,stuff it is hard to,see any grain.
Are they heavy? Like twice as heavy as hickory?
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They shouldn't be twice as heavy as hickory...if they are tell me where you bought them from!! 0.90 - 1.1 s.g. is the range i've found with ipe. Hickory runs from around 0.70 - 0.85s.g in my experience.
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Agree Mike, was just throwing a,comparison out.
Didn't have the info handy.
Point is Ipe that doesn't feel heavy is probably not going to make a,good bow.
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Looks more like Teak to me.
I have a number of IPE pcs laying around and like any wood there is some color variation but I've never seen it that light. I had to order a few thousand feet of it for a boardwalk in the Rockaways. I've never seen it that light of color. It is darker wood, very dense and very heavy.
It's used for boardwalks because of it natural built-in fireproofing and weather proof characteristics.
I tried using a piece to install blocking for a new window in my house and the nails from the nail gun could not penetrate it.
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Here are the pictures of the end grain:
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/17122015053_zpsmtqdlnd9.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/17122015053_zpsmtqdlnd9.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/17122015054_zps0xriimap.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/17122015054_zps0xriimap.jpg.html)
Forget the reflex deflex. Think I'll make a bamboo backed Ipe longbow. Just hope this 'fake' Ipe works.
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I would use the top one.
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Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
I would use the top one.
Roy, nice to have you here.
While you at it, point me to some place where you have instructions on building a tillering tree like yours...with all the bells and whistles...and pulleys also.
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Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
I would use the top one.
Roy...do these planks look like Ipe to you?
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cut 1/8" off one end and let us see
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Sure doesn't look like any IPE I've seen.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/373.png)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7998.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/pulley2_1.png)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/newbows2.png)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7397.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7398.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBi74lbXkRU
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I've never seen grain like that in any of my IPE.
Read several articles on how importers call several different trees Ipe due to it's popularity.
Ethier way agree the top pic. Is the choice grain.
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I've seen it like that. Read up on the plantation ipe. It's how it's being grown now to supply the demand.
When I used to be in business making primarily elb's I went through hundreds of boards of ipe. There is a huge natural variation and the low density, open grained, lighter in both weight and colour stuff is what I was seeing more and more often.
the very best ipe I used had a lot of red in it. The really dark, almost black stuff is great too but it's super hard to see pins in it until it's sanded.
Ipe refers to seven different species within the genus Tabebuia.
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Ok, got the board sorted out. Need to run the bow measurements by you guys now.
Planning a bamboo backed Ipe longbow. Want to make the limbsas narrow as comfortably possible.
Draw length is 27", aiming for a #50 bow.
Is 65" bow length fine? Will be putting in fades.
The bamboo backing is 3mm thick, how thick should the Ipe be?
For a narrow bow how wide should limbs be?
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Roy, what is that cross steel dowel sitting on the wall board 3-4" above the floor used for? Bue
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Okay, I get it, did'nt look close enough. :knothead:
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I started testing the SG on my ipe too mike, and it seems like the darker it is the denser it is. Measured some that was like dark chocolate at 1.27SG.
It sounds almost like aluminum when you hit the board ....
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Originally posted by Buemaker:
Okay, I get it, did'nt look close enough. :knothead:
What is the steel dowel there for anyway? Cant figure it out.
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To make the rope pull straight down on the bow and now out and down.
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You can have your limbs 1 inch wide at the widest point. Use a pyramid taper and make your ipe lam 3/4 thick.
65 ntn is ok but a wee bit longer wouldn't hurt you if you haven't made many bows before.
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Originally posted by mikkekeswick:
You can have your limbs 1 inch wide at the widest point. Use a pyramid taper and make your ipe lam 3/4 thick.
65 ntn is ok but a wee bit longer wouldn't hurt you if you haven't made many bows before.
When you say pyramid taper, you mean a pyramid style bow?
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It's where I connect the other end of the pull rope. And I slide the rope to align with the black line on the wall for split finger or three under tillering.
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65 inches is good I have built them longer forlonger draw lengths. As short as 62 inches for your draw length.
Leaving Them longer to start allows for adjustment to hit draw weight later.
I mke mine 1 1/4 inch wide to start out past the fades then taper to 1/2 atthe tips. This is later reduced to 3/8.
My starting thickness for a 50# R/D is about 1/2 inch.
This for the 1 1/4'starting width.
Bamboo at 3mm (3/8") is good.
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Originally posted by macbow:
65 inches is good I have built them longer forlonger draw lengths. As short as 62 inches for your draw length.
Leaving Them longer to start allows for adjustment to hit draw weight later.
I mke mine 1 1/4 inch wide to start out past the fades then taper to 1/2 atthe tips. This is later reduced to 3/8.
My starting thickness for a 50# R/D is about 1/2 inch.
This for the 1 1/4'starting width.
Bamboo at 3mm (3/8") is good.
How come you start the tips at 1/2" then reduce to 3/8"?
Can I make the width shorter past the fades, maybe 1"? Any potential problems with that?
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Hi Ismail,
It's pretty hard to get decent Ipe in South Africa. Although that board should do. Listen to what Roy says and you'll be fine. Haven't seen a finer bow builder of this type of bow anywhere. Once you've got a few under the belt, and you've collected a bit of data on the type of wood you are using you can start messing with width ect.
Wish we got o's age in SA.
PM me if you need any help, good luck.
Pete
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Looks like osage
Cut 1/8" off one end grain and let us see.
X2 on listen to OLD Roy
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Ok, advice taken.
Will try and rip that 1/8" off tonight and post some pics.
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Originally posted by PZee:
Hi Ismail,
It's pretty hard to get decent Ipe in South Africa. Although that board should do. Listen to what Roy says and you'll be fine. Haven't seen a finer bow builder of this type of bow anywhere. Once you've got a few under the belt, and you've collected a bit of data on the type of wood you are using you can start messing with width ect.
Wish we got o's age in SA.
PM me if you need any help, good luck.
Pete
Bow builders are few and far apart here in SA.
Maybe need to invite Roy down here someday soon.
Thanks PZee, will need the direction when I start my bow next week.
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Might have a hard time getting Roy down that way unless they have Coors stocked.
Ismail, i leave the tips at 1/2 to start because it leaves room for adjustment with the string grooves till everything is established.
I shape the tips and overlays after the tiller is established.
The last 6 inches of my ends do not bend much mostly stiff.
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Originally posted by Mark Daniel:
Looks like osage
Cut 1/8" off one end grain and let us see.
X2 on listen to OLD Roy
Got a better camera, so hopefully the pictures are a little better.
Heres the plank with a small piece cut off. There are some burn marks from the saw.
(http:// [url=http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151220_215904_zpskgh2koa0.jpg.html] [img]http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151220_215904_zpskgh2koa0.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151220_215737_zps6cyi1gxh.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151220_215737_zps6cyi1gxh.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151220_215847_zpsnxpwyyug.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151220_215847_zpsnxpwyyug.jpg.html)
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Macbow.....
Roy will just have to come try some real beer in SA. Plus he can try them fancy bows on some african game. Maybe I could persuade him to leave one when he's done..... :pray:
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Yep just the same as the plantation ipe i've had in the past. Wide rings and lots of early wood. Notice the straight grain from being quick grown straight up. I'll stick my neck out and say it will make a bow but will take more set than expected.
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Roy - have you been bribing all these folks to say you're the best r/d bow maker in the World...bar none?!? You've got quite the following ;) I'd be flattered ;)
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I am wondering if the boards could be Bankirai. It is used a lot for outdoor decking and heavy construction. If you Google Bankirai and look at pics it looks similar.
http://www.tropicalbuildings.com/timber/bangkirai-specs/
The pic here is not so clear. Looking at one of the flat sides of your board it has the grooves of outdoor decking. Coul be.
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I thought they were talking about another Roy.. LOL
Mac, LMAO. .
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Heck, you say it's dense right? And you have it? And you don't have anything else at the moment that resembles ipe?
Just go for it. What have you got to lose?
:goldtooth:
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Originally posted by canopyboy:
Heck, you say it's dense right? And you have it? And you don't have anything else at the moment that resembles ipe?
Just go for it. What have you got to lose?
:goldtooth:
You right. Too much talking. Lets start doing some work and ripping those boards up.
Marked the boards last night. Going to cut it 1 1/4" (31mm) wide.
Pardon me using mm, not used to inches yet.
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I would make the board 1 1/2 wide. Then get the boo cut to the exact shape you want the bow to be. Then glue it up. After that's dry, glue on a riser, let that dry then cut everything out.
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Marked it 1 1/2 (38mm).
Not getting a chance to cut the boards though. Children want me to tell them a story before bed.
Maybe should tell them about an old man far away who helps people make bows.
Should have it cut by tomm. Will put up the pics.
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Roys technique in shaping the bamboo then glueing to slightly larger boad worksreally well. Bamboo is then the template to cut the board.
Also by cutting the Bamboo to shape first you can thin and flatten the bamboo evenly or taper before glue up.
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Safer to leave your boo 1/16ths to an 1/8th bigger all around. In case of movement when clamping or wrapping,especially if you haven't done much lam bow making. Boo also holds onto moisture like a good 'un and can move from this during curing.
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Here's the board cut to 1 1/2 wide.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151223_213438_zpsvp9uwlbs.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151223_213438_zpsvp9uwlbs.jpg.html)
This is the other side, the decking side with the grooves.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151223_213501_zpsa1kcz7wg.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151223_213501_zpsa1kcz7wg.jpg.html)
Right now I brought the thickness down to 1/2". If I take off the grooves another 1mm or 2mm will be lost. Is that ok?
Was aiming for 65" bow length (draw length is 27").
Cut the board to 66". Will adjust the exact height after the glue up.
So far everyone happy?
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Should still make weight after removing the grooves.
Certainly don't want the grooves there at glue up.
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Mike has a point on bamboo and moisture.
Most bamboo is too moist for glue up when received aftermy first thinning and flattening I store my bamboo in a heat box to bring the mosture level down.
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The grooves gotta go. You could go down to 60" for a 27 draw length. Follow the first few steps of this thread below. Notice the bamboo backing there. It is cut to the EXACT shape of the finished bow. Make your boo like that, taper it tkickness wise, then lay it on the board and run a string down the center, tip to tip. Get it straight. Clamp it down to your bench and drill 2 holes in the handle area and 2 holes on each side of the limb tips at the end. After you apply the glue, stick tooth picks into those holes. That will keep it straight when you clamp it down. BE SURE to pad the back and belly of the bow when you clamp it up. The padding keeps the clamps from indenting the material.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=013158
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Working with the bamboo at the moment.
Made the bow length 61".
Handle area with flares is 8".
How much past the flares should i hold the 1 1/4" before i taper to the 1/2" tips?
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Forgot to mention, the top limb is 1" longer than the bottom limb.
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6 inches...
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I have had plenty of ipe that looks like that.
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Relief to hear that. How good quality bows you getting from it?
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I use it for ibeam material in risers. All the bows I build are glass back and belly with actionboo cores.
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Here is the bamboo cut to bow size with the ipe next to it.
The decking grooves are sanded off also.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151227_142158_zpsxa6poxo1.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151227_142158_zpsxa6poxo1.jpg.html)
The handle is slightly bulging and not shaped up. Should I leave it to sort out after glue up?
Planning on using Resorcinol for glue up.
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Yes leave it "close" till much later.
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Making the limb posts at the moment.
Made it according to Roys link above:
Centre post 3 3/4
Mid limb posts 2 3/4
End posts 6"
Using a meranti piece from an old door frame.
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When doing the glue up, first glue up the lams, then clamp it to the form?
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Glue all 3 pieces at once then put in the form.
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How to put in the recurve tips?
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Don't want to sound too ignorant. I know I have to use a heat gun to bend the tips into a recurve.
But how do I make a form?
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Your form should be one piece?
Put glue on your lams then start clamping at the handle, move out to the tips. Glue on both sides of each mating surface.
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In the link below, Roy put a bit of recurve before putting the R/D form in.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=013158
How do you flip those tips like that?
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I made these little 7" long forms and place them under the tips, heat the last 8 inches of the tips with a heat gun till you can hardly touch them, then clamp down and let cool completely.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7980.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7978.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7977.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7976.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7979.jpg)
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Here is my form, fully adjustable. I can slide those posts wherever I want to get as much or as little of deflex and reflex I want.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_8002.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/3.png)
Note in the video below how I have pieces of boo on top and a long lam under the bow. This is to protect the bow from getting damaged by the clamps. Very important... That will be $19.95 for the above info.. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHEXdeQ196M
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There are guys who don't flip the tips like I do prior to glue up. They simply add another long clamp at the tip area to pull the limb down to add reflex. I " highly suggest " doing a dry run in your form before you do the glue up!
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I do it without heat-bending. That's kind of redundant imo.
Trilams... that's the main reason I bother making a trilam as opposed to a backed single piece of core wood.... because it's flexible enough I can bend it into whatever shape I want during glue up... up to and including full recurves.
If I wanted to make an isolated sharp bend in a static recurve, that would be different.
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Thanks a mil for all the invaluable info.
$19.95 in SA currency with the current exchange rate...R306! Our economy is a bit on the 'deflex' side at the moment...the 'banana' kind;)
Marked the posts last night, should cut them out tonight. Will put the pics up once they done.
Will have to do a dry-run before glue up. Already apprehensive with so many details to get right.
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Make sure your form base is good and strong. Otherwise when you clamp up the bow, you will lose some deflex and reflex due to the form bowing upwards.
Show him a picture Bowjunkie of your form glue up.
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Another way to get the tips of a thick belly piece flexible enough for plenty of reflex is to run a saw cut up the middle and then cut a lam the same thickness as the kerf and insert at glue-up. This works for full recurves too.
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Yep, I've done that many times. Very cool, easy technique... if one is adept at bandsaw use.
It can also be used to put reflex and a little more efficiency into a straight or string follow selfbow, board bow, etc.
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Making a mental note of these tips.
Always wondered how they got those wedges into the tips.
If this dual lam comes out right, will try a trilam next.
Here are the posts cut out. Think its Meranti wood. Still have to do the bases and finishing touches.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151229_231236_zpsz4fnicns.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151229_231236_zpsz4fnicns.jpg.html)
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The second from the right is a tad higher than the second from the left.
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Ok, will sort that out tomm. Going to reduce the width also. Dont need them so wide.
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Important... double and triple check that those pieces are each parallel/level. For instance, the second one from the left looks to be taller on its right side than its left. Gluing up a bow with it the way it sits will ultimately induce limb twist that is almost impossible to remove by the usual methods.
The groundwork for these bows is 90% of the battle. Save yourself.
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Yep those are a bit wonky!!
Making certain everything is dead on right.
Every step has to be right or else the house of cards starts falling down.
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Hey Ismail,
Have you ever had a look at Sam Harper's website poor folk bows. He has great build alongside on there and a ton of advice.
Be careful of heating Ipe. I've never experimented with heating it, I heard it doesn't like dry heat and steaming is better. Just what I've heard.
Keep well
Pete
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I've heard tell that Ipe can be heated. I never have I would just let the form add the reflex it is enough.
Leave the bending of the tips forwood like osage.
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Good thinking, Mac..
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Was busy squaring up the form posts and cutting the bases last night.
Macbow is right, maybe should leave the tip bending for this one. Hard to resist though.
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When you guys are throwing around words like 'static recurves' and 'reflex tips' around a novice, finding it very challenging to resist all them 'curves'.
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Ipe is very stiff so you might run into problems if you expect it to conform to your form shape. Not that i've seen it yet but I strongly suggest not going to 'extreme' with the shape. That's why tri lams are so much better for this style of bow when using ipe (or any stiff wood).
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With a form like Roy and I use up to 3/8 inch on Ipe works pretty well. Once you go past that going with a tri lam would be much better.
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Here are 2 of my form posts:
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151231_224951_zpsekjhjjuv.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151231_224951_zpsekjhjjuv.jpg.html)
There is a tiny height difference that I just cannot seem to get right. Reason is, I have an ancient table saw...with no fence. Have to free hand all the cuts.
Nevertheless, took all the warnings about getting a 'wonky' bow to heart. Will try and put that right.
Since its obvious that all you old timer bow builders prefer a trilam over a single piece backed bow, I found a piece of hickory that can use for a trilam. Here it is on the left of the Ipe:
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20151231_234722_zpsnm3tcv2y.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20151231_234722_zpsnm3tcv2y.jpg.html)
Thinking maybe should do the trilam...?
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Hope I'm not boring you guys out with the slow progress.
Kind of savouring all the gangs input getting the ground work sorted out.
Dont get too much time to work on bow making everyday, so not rushing it.
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No rush, it is a learning process and the guys here are chock full of invaluable insights. I am enjoying this thread and am excited to watch as it progresses!
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Whether I elected to make a trilam instead of a backed ipe bow would depend on the thickness of the pieces and whether I had the means and ability to rip/resaw them and accurately thickness, taper, and surface them. I don't mean to talk you out of it, but if it isn't executed adequately, you'll likely set yourself up for trouble.
Bows constructed with 2 pieces, like a belly core of ipe and a bamboo backing, can be shaped into wonderful deflex/reflex profiles at glue up... especially if the core isn't much thicker than it needs to be to make weight.
I've bent and held osage in such shapes with enough wood to make 70+lb bows.
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Amen!
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Then I'll stick with the Ipe backed bamboo. Don't want to bite off more than I can chew.
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With regards to your tablesaw, you can make a fence by clamping a straight piece of wood across the table. Clamp it at both ends and make sure it is parallel to the blade. It's a bit more time consuming than a regular fence, but it will make the saw safer to use and more accurate.
When I was young, my Dad had an old saw which had a fence, but it wasn't much better than a piece of wood with clamps. I would set it by measuring from the fence to the leading edge of the blade. Them to make sure it was parallel, I would measure from the fence to the T-slot at the front and back of the table.
Dave.
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Thanks Wood Carver,will have to put something together for that fence. Frustrating not being able to get a straight cut.
Need to get some clamps tomm for my bow making. Currently, only have 6 medium size C-clamps.
Planning to get 15 to 20 more medium clamps and 4 large bar clamps.
Should I get C-clamps or squeeze clamps?
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Innertubes from your local bike shop. Don't buy any just ask for the old tubes from fixing punctures, they will be free and work superbly for this job. Wrap one full elngth of the lams in one direction then do another wrap but going in the opposite direction - this is so you don't get a twist put into your lams. Pull on them until you feel the 'end of the elasticity' to get the right pressure. If you do this you will get flawless gluelines.
Clamps work....obviously but without a decent pressure strip and enough of them (one every 3 - 4 inch minimum) you run the risk of improperly clamped lams. Do not use those squeeze clamps - pretty much a waste of money but they are good for keeping your lams parallel whilst clamping/taping.
Before everybody bites my head off for pointing out the limitations of clamps....I used them for years then made the switch to tubes. You are less likely to run into problems using tubes because they give you such an even clamping force. Clamps on the other hand become looser during the time the glue cures and if you don't get the initial tightness right you can run into problems. They also make your form weigh a ton when it comes to putting it in the oven to dry.
Saving that make a proper (!) form and use a hose ;)
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Mike, you start wrapping from the middle working towards the ends or from one end to the other?
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I use alot of spring clamps. In addition I use the bycycle inner tube strips about a foot long. Wrap tight and use a spring clampto hold.
I don't use a oven. If the temp is above 75 degrees over night just clampand wait.
If it is colld like it is here now I use 2 100 watt lights protectedby wire cage and coverit all with sleeping bags.
Nice and toasty.
Only reason I don't use the C clamps is the weight and cost.
You can't ownenought clamps.
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Originally posted by macbow:
I use alot of spring clamps. In addition I use the bycycle inner tube strips about a foot long. Wrap tight and use a spring clampto hold.
I don't use a oven. If the temp is above 75 degrees over night just clampand wait.
If it is colld like it is here now I use 2 100 watt lights protectedby wire cage and coverit all with sleeping bags.
Nice and toasty.
Only reason I don't use the C clamps is the weight and cost.
You can't own enought clamps.
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Don't know if you noticed but whenyou get ready for glue up.
Have some plastic wrap lay it out and assemble your glue up on it then wrap arounf to keep all glue squeeze out off your form.
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Ok so its spring clamps and inner tubes.
Right now im trying to get the ipe to exact width.
Supposed to be 12.7mm width.
In some places its 13mm, others its 12mm, and in some its 11.5mm
Can i bring it to 11.5mm throughout?
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Them11.5 is plenty thick enough.
If one surface is flat use that side to glue to the bamboo backing. You will be removing belly material as you tiller anyway.
Do you have a nelt sander?
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Yes, using a Makita heavy duty hand held sander. Removes wood at a terrific rate so have to go very carefully.
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Would be difficult to get even thickness that way for,sure.
If one side is,good then I would do the glue up and work out the high and low spots as you floor tiller.
A scraper would be a good tool at that point.
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My advise is to get them lam perfect before glue-up. Remember what I said about a house of cards....it doesn't take much to upset one!
Try mounting your sander a fixed distance above your workbench or similar them feed your lam through? Just an idea. Failing that do a bit of looking about locally? Phone book maybe and find a cabinet makers shop, they will have a drum sander and it will make your gluing surfaces perfect and the lams perfectly flat.
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Mikes advice is solid.
My concern is if you keep trying to get them consistant the way your currently doing it you will eventually end up with problem.
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I know what you saying. Hand held sanders are dangerous in bow making.
Did final touches with the sander just now, just the thick spots.
Know of a place nearby where they make solid wood furniture, they should have a thicknesser. Will check with them.
If this bow comes out right, will definitely get myself one. Checked around, not too badly priced.
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A thickness planer is great, but they have limitations when it comes to very thin stock such as lams. Thin wood can disintegrate in a planer.
This is where a drum sander shines.
Dave.
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Yes your cabinet probably has a drum sander.
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Here is my mock setup. These are the 2 bar clamps I got today.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160106_220341_zpscpws261c.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160106_220341_zpscpws261c.jpg.html)
From the other side:
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160106_220211_zps21rcf1h9.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160106_220211_zps21rcf1h9.jpg.html)
Did this just to get the feel of it.
From what I guage, its going to take some pressure to clamp down the stave to the mid limb post?
At 13mm thick the ipe is still quite stiff. It is bending, but will take a fair amount of force to clamp it to the mid limb post.
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How tall are your posts? I think Roy uses 3 3/4-2 3/4 and 6".
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Buemaker, think you right. My centre post is a bit too high.
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Sorted it out. What happened was that i had not compensated for the base height on that one, so was an inch higher.
Should be easier to clamp it now.
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Be sure to pad the clamps so they don't damage the bamboo.
Dave.
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A regular bar clamp will work well for the center.
A very rigid base is required to keep any give when the two clamps are tightened down.
Do those bar clamps have a screw portion to pull down the tough spots?
Some short sections of cut off bamboo can make good buffers between the clamp and bamboo backing.
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That looks very asymmetric.
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Its not the final setting, just a mock setup to show where about I am. That's why its on my lounge table also.
Will a plank of pine be ok for a base? Can put 3 legs under for clamping space and support.
Maybe some other idea?
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Got 2 types of bar clamps. One is the metal one with the screw, the other is a plastic handled one with a fancy cranking system for tightening it.
Will put some pictures up tonight.
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I too noticed the top limb midlimb post wasn't at mid limb.
You can use pine or anything you want as long as it's stout enough that it won't give when the clamps are tightened.
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Yup...ipe is stiff! I personally would cut down on your reflex about an inch.
Reasons - ipe is stiff ;) , more reflex will make it harder for you to tiller, lams will take less clamping force to contact form correctly, less chance of your ipe pulling a splinter on its (future) belly, less chance of potential glue starving issues and less 'springback'.
Also although reflex is generally considered a good thing and it is if used well, a 'fresh' belly will give the faster bow.
What type of glue do you plan on using?
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Come on Ismail....
Get Er Done.. :)
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Sorry if im getting on you guys nerves with the long drawn out process.
Problem is i didnt have anything that was needed, nor does anyone in the family have a history in wood working, so have to start from scratch.
Nevertheless, no need to despair...got a whole lot of spring clamps today and an inner tube also. Just need to cut it up.
Planning on using Resorcinol for glue up.
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Roy, why dont you come down here and give a hand then?
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:)
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Don't let ol Roy rush ya. There's no hurry.
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Just checked my resorcinol today and noticed its expired. Phoned the local supplier and they said its discontinued.
Noticed alot of you guys use Titebond 3.
From what ive read Titebond 3 is marketed as Alcolin Ultra here.
Anyone knows for sure?
Anyone from SA know any other bow glues locally available?
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Even if your Recorsinol have expired it may still be okay. You could mix up a little and glue together two scrap pieces sligthly offset. When cured set them in a vice and hit one piece with a hammer to see if if you get a clean wood brake.
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Good advice, no reason to waste good glue, it may well still be good.
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The only problem with titebond is it does not fill gaps.
All surfaces have to be tight.
A lot of use unibond 800 don't know of availability for you.
Also smooth on epoxy. Both are gap filling glues.
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Don't let that resourcinol near a glue-up! It's temperamental stuff. The only glue failures i've had were on two glue-ups with resourcinol that was past it's date. It tends to go a bit 'runny' when it's done for. I thought it would be ok ....but I was wrong!
Resourcinol is great glue when fresh. TB3 works great with ipe but you must have perfect mating surfaces. Perfect!
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Look for a good Comercial two part epoxy. Something with a good half hour of pot life. Glue is the most important thing here.
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I agree, glue is the most important.
Order some unibond 800 or smooth-on and get it shipped to you.
It's worth the money.
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Boat building epoxy such as system3.
Dave.
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Managed to get some fresh resorcinol today.
Ready for glue up.
2 questions:
1. Eaxctly where should i put my form posts?
The centre post wil go under the centre of the handle.
Exactly where will the mid limb posts and end posts go?
Mike recommended not putting too much reflex in for a beginner.
The bow is 61" and top limb is an inch longer than the bottom.
2. How do you secure the inner tube after wrapping it around the bow during glue up?
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I would place the mid limb posts half way between the flares and tips. The end posts I place out at the ends of the limbs. After you have it clamped down, measure both limb tips from the base of your form to the same place on each tip. Make them both the same height by sliding one or the other in a little to get them both the same height. I've never used inner tubes so can't help ya there.
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On the inner tube strips. Usually mine are about 12 inches long.
Start by over lapping one end pull very tight and wrap forward barely overlaping the last wrap. Keep pulling tight and wrapping. When you get to the end use the spring clamp.
Start another. I alsoadd spring clamps where it looks like they are needed.
Onthe position of mid limb posts.
According to Dean Torges, closer tothemidlimb point for a hunting bow and closer to the tips for a faster target bow.
Reccomend 16" from center of handle for hunting bow.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v42/macbow/image.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/macbow/media/image.jpg.html)
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Ismail, this is a poor example.
Here I have a couple of light weight kids BBI bows glued up.
With your heavier bow I would use many more clamps.
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Get the picture, thanks.
One thing need to clarify regarding the mid limb posts...if one post is for example 16" down the bottom limb, will the other post be 17" down the top (longer) limb?
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That could be answered better by Roy or Bowjunkie.
I have been making mine the same length.
I think the mid limb posts would both still be at 16 " ? From center of handle.
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Both ways would change the dynamics of the bow differently.
Lets see, maybe Roy or one of the other guys who make longer top limbs can shed some light.
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The difference would only be 1/2 inch, you will never notice it.
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With using Roy and junkie's tillering method everything works out.
I would ask the question when shifting the center.
From what I got from watching Dean Torges video the main thing stressed was the bow carried and balanced better in the hand.
I never found that to be a big deal. Is there another reason?
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Shortening the bottom limb makes it balance better in the bow hand, and I prefer it that way because it's not only better balanced to carry, it's also better balanced to swing, point, and hold on target the way I shoot.
And yes, there are other reasons. Shortening the bottom limb moves the bow's longitudinal center upwards, closing the spread between static balance, string hand fulcrum, and dynamic balance at full draw. This makes the bow limb/balanced better throughout the entire draw cycle, easier to synchronize the limbs, less handshock, treats the arrow better upon release, etc... all imho of course.
I hope I said all that right... I'm in a hurry.
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Mac I can't see how it would make that much of a difference either in hand balance. It's just how Jeff taught me and how I've been doing it. Think my next bow, I will make equal length limbs and limb time it for craps and giggles..
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They work both ways but shorter lower limb is the best in my eyes. Definitely carry better.
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Thanks guys.
Couldn't hurt to have that little bit of extra clearence when you hunt,fromthe ground like I do.
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Here is a mock set up before glue up. Put toothpicks in to keep the bamboo aligned.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160117_123019_zpshovdtcea.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160117_123019_zpshovdtcea.jpg.html)
One thing im concerned about, is the clamping to the mid limb post will need a great amount of pressure. The clamp im using cannot seem to provide that pressure.
Should I switch to the metal clamps?
Will the wood be able to handle the pressure?
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I switched to the metal clamps, the blue ones in the above picture. Much more leverage.
The only thing is i came to the end of the screwing capacity and there was still an inch of space left to go.
Will have to find a way to lower the clamp more before using the srew on it.
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To me the end posts looks very tall compared to the other posts. Since it is your first try how about making them a bit lower? You will still have a nice DR bow. :)
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Yes they do, Bue. How high are they from the form?
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They are just like Roys: 2 3/4", 3 3/4" and 6", including the form bases.
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Did the glue up today:
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160124_133852_zps45wjm4lk.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160124_133852_zps45wjm4lk.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160124_133917_zpswqobzn6q.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160124_133917_zpswqobzn6q.jpg.html)
As I was tightening the last inch on the mid limb post, heard some creaking. Quickly relased it a little and left it at that height. Then tightened the other side to the same height.
Thats why the limbs are not touching both the mid limb posts.
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If some of the belly wood cracked, hopefully not enough to cause a problem. That is the area that I remove wood first when floor tillering.
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Also hoping it wont cause a problem later on.
Are all the clamps placed right?
Think the creaking was from the bamboo, not the ipe. When i did the mock clamping to the form, did it with the ipe only. Clamped down nicely.
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With the rubber bands and clamps I think it looks ok.
Usually when I get to where you are I add all the spring clamps I have spaced throughout.
It would be unusual if the bamboo was doing the creaking.
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Remember what I said earlier about ipe being stiffv stuff and not going for too much reflex?!? ;)
Bamboo won't make noises as it was being compressed as you tightened the clamps but the ipe with square edges was feeling tension (being on the outside of the curve).
Also notice how the outer limbs are almost straight after your big clamps. This will make it harder to tiller down the road.
Anyway it's all good learning :)
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To further clarify, it's straight after the midlimb clamps because you didn't taper(or didn't taper enough) the limb thickness prior to glue-up.
At first glance it doesn't seem like a big deal, but pretapering causes it to not only take on a more even reflex during glue up and save you work when you get to tillering, it helps thwart a phenomenon that can occur if you have to remove too much material afterwards to get the outer limbs flexing. Under these circumstances, a limb can tend to gain reflex as you remove belly wood... you remove more belly wood to try to get it to come around, it gains more reflex... and on and on until, wham, it finally comes around and you're under weight.
There's not much you can do now. So when you do get to tillering, go slow and exercise it a LOT each time you remove material from the belly.
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Took the bow off the form and unwrapped it. At first it looked quite good...until I saw the crack. Tragedy.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160125_201455_zps2bs0v8ek.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160125_201455_zps2bs0v8ek.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160125_200832_zpsdvedntz1.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160125_200832_zpsdvedntz1.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160125_201602_zpskmm2wy6a.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160125_201602_zpskmm2wy6a.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160125_201549_zpscauzjmjd.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160125_201549_zpscauzjmjd.jpg.html)
Here is another picture of the glue up.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/giysmkt/20160124_130248_zpsqniqg41q.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/giysmkt/media/20160124_130248_zpsqniqg41q.jpg.html)
The crack was on the shorter lower limb (right). Just after the mid limb post.
Any ideas what went wrong?
Few thoughts came to mind:
1. The end posts were too high (6") - Like Bue warned before.
2. The mid post was too far away from the end posts.
3. The Ipe was too thick (13mm)
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Ah, pre-tapering limb thickness. Didnt know I had to do that. How much should it have been tapered?
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#3.. The ipe was way too thick and not tapered. I'd have made it 1/2" at the riser, tapered to 1/4" at the tips. Also there is bad grain run out where it broke.
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Agree, it is slightly over 1/2 inch in thickness and IPE is tough to bend. The run out definetly added to the failure.
I don't remember what the target weight was. A 3/8 inch thick tapered slat at .004 per inch will easily make a 50 plus pound bow at 28 " of draw.
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Before I close this topic and start another BBI, what kind of bend are you looking for at the tips?
Mine were straight...should they have been more recurved?
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Not recurved necessarily, just a nice gentle, gradual bend from the mid limb post to the tips. If you taper them properly, all you have to do is pull them down onto the midlimb post and they'll show you.
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(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/3.png)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/12.png)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/dontesbow8.png)
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Thanks, get the picture now. Nice gradual curves.
Will start working on the next BBI, when I'm ready for glue up will start a new topic 'Second attempt at BBI'.
Make sure you guys are there.
Learnt a lot from this one.
thanks again
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Another thing which helps with the glue up is to cut the belly slat so it's about 1/4" wider than the boo backing you are gluing on, instead of leaving it like 2" wide. You are going to cut off all that excess width anyway and by making it narrower, it will bend easier in the glue up.