Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: 8leg-lover on November 27, 2015, 11:16:00 AM
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I started my first build after lurking for a long time. I'm not expecting anything beautiful.. but hopefully functional. I don't have any pics of cutting or glue up but here's where it stands as of now:
60" N/N R/D Ipe backed with bamboo. Ipe is 1/4" thick all the way through. Bamboo is slighty less than an 1/8" all the way through.
I roughed up both gluing surfaces with a saws all blade. Smooth On wrapped in cellophane and baked at 180 for 9 hours. Here it is out of the form.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4428_zpsppzvnolg.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4428_zpsppzvnolg.jpg.html)
Here it is sitting on top of my nearly finished tillering tree.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4429_zps0ga1x88n.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4429_zps0ga1x88n.jpg.html)
I have several questions. First of all you should all know that I know just enough to be dangerous and am slightly ADD, so this should be fun LOL!
First, I have no idea what weight this bow will come in at. Given the dimensions of the material, maybe some of you guys have a better idea. Second, What size riser should I make to fade into the limbs? My guess is the length of the riser will effect tillering and final weight.
Like I said, not expecting anything magical. I'm just drawn to this design so this is what I've chosen for my first bow. Everybody's got to have a first time right?... I'm a sponge waiting to soak up some knowledge. Let's have it!
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My guess on weight is max of40#@28".
I would make a layerd handle of,progressively shorter slats of about 1/8 inch built up to the thickness you like.
The longest slat about 12 inches.
Then glue them all up and clamp to bow blank.
The second option is a solid handle shaped to the blank , like Roy from Pa makes.
I have problems matching the profile so use the slats.
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Thanks Mac! I was hoping you'd you would be one of the guys to chime in here. What kind of weight increase could I hope for if I shorten it to 58"? And if I do, would my longest handle layer still be 12"?
Thanks!
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Your first mistake was baking the bow for 9 hours at 180 degrees. That's fine for glass bows but not for wood and especially bamboo backed bows. That hot and that long dries the crap out of the boo, and the wood. Check the boo for cracks in the back, it may have already split in certain areas. Smooth on will dry in 24 hours at 70 degrees. If the boo is not cracked, I would let that bow sit someplace where it's moist for about a week. The IPE belly should have been thicker, like about 3/8th to 7/16th. 1/4 thick would have been fine for a tri lam where the core lam is about 3/16th thick. You might get 35 pounds out of it. I make my risers 13 inches long. You shouldn't use a saw blade for roughing up the surface, buy a toothing plane. Smooth on is fine with just roughing up the surface with 120 grit sand paper. I clamp every 2 inches and I pad the back especially, to protect the boo surface and I also pad the belly. I see you copied my form base with the angle iron, good job. But this is your first bow and you will learn. Hope it works out for you.
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Thanks for the info Roy! I didn't mean to leave it in the heat box for that long but life happened and I had to leave the house in a hurry (should have had it on a timer).
I'll set this one outside under the porch for a while. We've had a lot of rain here which equals moisture. I think I'll make a bow for my daughter out of this one.
I happen to have lots of Ipe and bamboo on hand. I'll get another one cut out and glued up. Something I can get a few extra pounds out of.
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I agree on the 3/8 if just boo and Ipe. That will usually net me a 50# bow.
Roy likes the 13 inch handle with his method and I still like 12 to 13 inch.
Since these are your first bows consider cutting in the string grooves before adding any overlays. Tiller and get the weight that your formula will allow. Then if you want to add 5 pounds or so the length can be shortenrd and then the overlays and new string grooves cut in.
You definetly cooked the moisture out of the first one.
I don't even have a heat box anymore. I have a,couple of light bulbs and carefully cover the bow ithe sleeping bags over night.
Good,luck.
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Chances are a riser will 'pop off' that blank because it is too thin near the handle.
If you don't have your belly slat thicker and then cut the limb down to the thickness you require it will bend too much into the handle area and you will have God's own job of getting handle lams to stick.
I've tried it with multiple thin handle lams, thick pieces etc but they all work lose at some point if there is there isn't enough stiffness inherent in the center to stop it.
The way around it is to cut your ipe at 3/16ths thicker (or thicker) than you intend it to be in the limbs.
Or make a powerlam to go in the stack. Even with a powerlam it's better to make your belly lam thicker and then cut the limbs to floor tiller thickness.
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So the first bow will be finished out later and given to my daughter (hopefully Christmas).
I regrouped and decided to go with a Tri Lam. This way I can get the amount of R/D I want and also have enough material to get the weight I'm after (50-60#).
The bamboo back is a shy 3/16, Ipe core lam is 3/16, Ipe belly is 1/4. I made a slight mod to my form to get a little more deflex. I drilled and pinned the trio with a toothpick to maintain alignment during glue up.
So let's see where I can go with this one. Thanks guys for the advice so far!
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4431_zpsengp8nrm.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4431_zpsengp8nrm.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4432_zpsczfsb02n.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4432_zpsczfsb02n.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4433_zpsrujndm02.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4433_zpsrujndm02.jpg.html)
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A comment for the future.
The bamboo is better if it is thinner. The edges down to about 1/16 inch. Tapered is good but not totally necessary.
I agree with Mike on it being better to have the handle wood thicker and tapered into the limb thickness. Especially on heavier bows.
Although with my layered handle add ons I have never had a handle pop off with or without a power lam.
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It seems like some do their handles both ways and have success. I went this route so I could get a better bend in my handle section without the threat of cracking my belly wood. I modified the center post on my form to be more like Roy from PA's. That seemed to help her bend into position easier. I'll get it off the form tomorrow, get it cleaned up, and then address the handle issue. I'm not sure if I want to do multiple thin layers or a solid handle. Maybe a combination of both.
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Hey Roy, I got rid of the oven on this one. No worries about this one turning into a sun dried raisin! Set my shop thermostat to 80 and let it set in the open air.
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Go look up Roy's past posts on his build a long on his handle technique.
I just have troublegetting a close enought fit.
With the slats I don't have that problem.
As for as the handle bending that is not for these type glue ups.
The handle should be rigid or the popping off problem could surface. The flex wouldonly occur part way into the fades.
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At 60" length with a 12" riser section, bamboo backed ipe, 1.5" wide, I think you're looking at just barely 1/2" limb thickness at the fades to get you around 50# at 28". You're definately gonna have enough material there for whatever weight you choose.
I suspect you will tiller through most of the belly lam as you get to the tips, but should be fine anyway.
Ipe tends to be less durable when the belly lam is very thin. For that reason I always try to taper my core so I don't run the risk of a very thin belly lam.
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Riser length... I take this to mean the glued-on handle piece including enough wood to work the dips into working limb. Mine have varied anywhere from 9" on short bows where I'm pushing limits and need every inch of working limb I can get, up to about 15". But on an average bow of mine, I like 12-13".
Regardless of how long or short they are, I shape and tiller them so that flexing isn't brought to an abrubt halt in an isolated area of the fadeouts. Some guys choose to shape their fadeouts steep and rigid... some are incredibly so. These bows are probably better off with powerlams or pedestals to set the glued-on handle piece on... but they're not necessary for most bows.
I've made bamboo backed bows over 70 lbs with glued-on handle/dip pieces, no pedestal or powerlams whatseover, without an issue, in fact, in all the bows I've made where I added handle pieces on like we're talking about here, I've only ever had one come loose, very early in my bowmaking. It reiterated the lessons I needed to fully injest and apply.
I don't build my handle up with stacked thin slats. It would work, I just don't want to go to the trouble, and prefer the look of a single piece. Not only do I try to use the same kind/strength of wood that's in the limbs, I try to use wood with the same ring orientation(i.e. if the limbs are quartersawn osage, I try to use quartersawn osage handle wood) if possible, but I don't think it's a deal breaker if some other factors are properly addressed.
Some of those things that help ensure they don't come loose are:
Good mating of glue surfaces. Mine are often curved due to the blank's deflex, so I take my time to be sure it sits on there square and that there are no gaps. I hold it up to a light and look hard from every angle for any tiny gaps and correct them, even so, this usually only takes 10-15 minutes.
Proper glue surface preparation. I only glue onto freshly exposed, clean wood. After the handle piece is shaped/ground and mated to the blank, and immediately prior to gluing, I run a toothing plane blade by hand longways on both pieces, kind of like a scraper, the full depth of the teeth and completely past the very end of the fadeout. The toothing plane blade works better than a dragged saw blade or file edge for this because it cuts clean, even, and precise, leaving no tearing or fuzzy remnants. I do this on any horn tips, overlays, underlays, etc as well.
Use the best glue for the application. In this case, because of the grooves from the toothing plane blade, a glue with gap filling properties such as Smooth On epoxy or Unibond works well. I use Smooth On.
Proper mixing ratios and techniques. Make sure glue as at or just slightly above room temperature and mix very, very well... every speck of it, for a long enough duration, then mix for another full minute, and in proper amounts.
Apply to both pieces with a sufficient amount of glue. Fully wet both pieces to be adhered, running the applicator parallel with the grooves and in both directions. On the last pass or two, there should be enough glue on the surfaces that the applicator will 'float or glide' on glue, not felt to 'scrape' the gluing surface. After clamping, there should always be some squeezeout around all sides.
Proper clamping pressure. Using the toothing plane iron, it would be difficult to clamp the pieces tight enough to starve the joint of glue, but I just snug them so the pieces are seated and don't move while they cure. You're not trying to crush anything, and more pressure doesn't make for a better joint. The prep makes the joint.
Heat during cure if warranted. Epoxy likes a little warmth, so I throw a shop light near it and loosely drape a towel over it to keep the heat in. Not so close or tightly that it would burn of course. Let some heat escape an opening in the top.
One of the most important factors is how the whole thing is shaped. If it's short, steep, and angled into working limb, it's going to try to pry off. If it's long, gradual, and flows into working limb, it won't.
I think a couple of things that might also help me is my handle shape(round-ish or bulbous) and that I radius all of my bow's bellies. This means the handle piece doesn't 'fadeout' in a straight lateral line across the limb... rather, as it fades out, it does so as much longitudinally as it does laterally... which distributes the 'prying stresses' on the glue joint over a much greater area than a steep, flat dip coming down into a flat limb belly.
Anyway, there's a few things to think about.
Sorry this post was so long :rolleyes:
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Awesome stuff guys! Thanks Bowjunkie for all that info. I've been kind of stressing about the handle but feel much better now.
Here it is out of the form. I had very little spring back compared to the first one and I made this one with a more aggressive deflex. I guess this lack of spring back is due to the fact that this is a tri lam and it has two glue joints working together instead of just one.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4442_zpsmzfsoe9j.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4442_zpsmzfsoe9j.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4443_zps7cxykjlj.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4443_zps7cxykjlj.jpg.html)
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I have a lot of hickory hardwood flooring lying around. My plan is to plane three pieces down to equal thickness until the combined thickness is the same width as the handle section. Then glue them up into a handle block, cut the profile, and then glue it to the bow. Do you guys see any issues with that? It's good clear hickory FYI.
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Here's what I have in mind.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4444_zpslef7mbjw.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4444_zpslef7mbjw.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_4445_zpsenckrz3e.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_4445_zpsenckrz3e.jpg.html)
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Don't see any problems.
Key is as mentioned making it mate the bows profile with no gaps.
These guys have that down pat. I struggle there,
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I decided to build mine and my daughter's at the same time. I screwed up on the bamboo on mine (again) :banghead: I made the bamboo way too thick. So I've narrowed my limbs as much as I dare (3/8). Since I have plenty of Ipe thickness to work with... hell who knows...
Handles are glued in to both. Since I've narrowed my limbs so much should I go ahead and put overlays on it before I start tillering? I've got brown phenolic and Ipe.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0127_zpsueqtmvcr.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0127_zpsueqtmvcr.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0129_zpsildhrcg2.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0129_zpsildhrcg2.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0130_zpstb67uz1e.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0130_zpstb67uz1e.jpg.html)
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The daddy daughter bows are awesome. Nice job
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I take it the 3/8" you refer to is,at,the tips?
If so that is a good width.
The tip overlays can wait till after tillering in case you want to cut off some (pike) to gain weight.
You can cut the string grooves just on the sides for tillering.
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Nice, Carl..
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Thanks Roy! I found Eric's BBI build from 2013 and saw where you and others really helped him out. It's been a huge help!
I didn't do a power lam so I'm a little concerned about my handle possibly popping off (mainly my bow because of the weight).
I got my handle joints married up pretty good on both bows considering the tools I've been using (jig saw, four inch grinder w/sanding disc, and a palm sander).
Macbow, Yes my tips are 3/8". My thoughts are that since I made my tips narrower, I now have the full 7/16" Ipe limb thickness to tiller and make weight. Since I made my bamboo too thick, I should have plenty of wood left after tillering to not be thinner than the boo. So hopefully I won't have any major set or overpowering issues.
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When you tiller the bow, don't let the area just outside of the riser ends bend hardly at all. Don't even remove wood from the riser ends out into the limbs about 4 inches till you are almost done tillering. That area will bend all on it's own. Many a new guy has lost a bow because of getting that area too thin and causing a hinge there.
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That makes sense Roy. Stay away from that area, the less it moves the less chance for a hinge or handle issues.
Roy, what's the benefit to cutting the tips off at an angle and then gluing on the tip overlays?
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Just how I do it. You don't want real thick tips, adds weight. Causes hand shock and slows down the bow.
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Should my temporary string grooves be filed in at about 45 degrees? That's about what they look like from the pics I've seen.
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File the back first then hold a string in that slot and pull it down in the center of the limb on the belly side and trace that out with a pencil. Last couple bows I haven't put slots in the sides of the limbs.
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A little more progress last night. I started with mine. Got it floor tillered and temp string grooves in.
I beveled and sanded all the edges. I put it on the tree just to get a feel for it. I just flexed it enough to get the tips to move a couple of inches. It's pretty stout right now.
I'm staying away from the fades like you guys said (about 5 inches right now). I'm pretty happy with the handle glue up considering the tools I've been using and the fact that it's my first one. :)
Question: Should I go ahead and get the fades shaped now or wait until I get the weight down a little more and the limbs flexing more?
Any input is greatly appreciated!
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0140_zpsokdtnzzp.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0140_zpsokdtnzzp.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0138_zps38ywgwpp.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0138_zps38ywgwpp.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0137_zpsu8mv6m4r.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0137_zpsu8mv6m4r.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0134_zpsck5tm4zx.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0134_zpsck5tm4zx.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0135_zps042hd1cu.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0135_zps042hd1cu.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/IMG_0136_zpsz2yzjy9j.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/IMG_0136_zpsz2yzjy9j.jpg.html)
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Those look awesome, it is a blessing that you have almost unlimited access to bamboo that look so good!! :thumbsup:
That work shop looks like it is never used it is so clean mine looks like a war zone after these couple of weeks work(knife making for a knife show)!!
Keep up the the good WIP
Martin
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One suggestion Carl, put a shorter string on the bow. Put on one that lays tight against the belly when the bow is strung. Then when the limb tips are bending down to 6 inches, shorten the string so the bow is braced to about 3 inches. Then when the tips are bending to 9 inches, brace the bow to 6 inches and continue tillering. One word of caution here, because of the amount of reflex you have, sometimes at a lower brace height, the string can roll off one side and string the bow backwards. If that starts to happen, you will need to shorten the string to bend the tips more to prevent that situation. I would also get the riser cut down closer to the finished profile. It's awful thick right now.
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Looks like you did a good job on the handle.
Follow Roys suggestions.
That is a lot of reflex more than I usually have. But I like the curves.
When you are tillering don't remove much from the last 6 to 8 inches of the tips you can blend them in later.
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Disaster!!
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsdbjmnl5f.jpeg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsdbjmnl5f.jpeg.html)
I was trying to get it braced at 3 inches and POW!! I was good though. I didn't even throw anything! It split the bamboo backing too far down to pike it so I ground the entire backing off the bow (this took a while). I wasn't too upset since I had made it too thick to begin with and I had one more piece of boo left.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpski6dihdk.jpeg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpski6dihdk.jpeg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsv0zpmear.jpeg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsv0zpmear.jpeg.html)
Despite my setbacks and mistakes, I'm enjoying myself and learning a lot as I go.
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Well I salvaged it. I ended up tapering the belly so l would have a thicker handle section. This made for a much lighter bow but I've learned a ton. Right now it's 58" n/n @ 37ish pounds. Do you think it's worth piking to 56" to try and get a few more pounds out of?
Sorry for the lighting. I've got an antler chandelier hanging above and to the right. It throws some crazy shadows.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsp9ibhbam.jpeg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsp9ibhbam.jpeg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps0ndwwyma.jpeg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps0ndwwyma.jpeg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsqalykic2.jpeg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsqalykic2.jpeg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad46/carlkossuth/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsloqd8f3r.jpeg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/carlkossuth/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsloqd8f3r.jpeg.html)
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Hey that's not half bad. Bending a littl much in the inner limbs, but t not too bad considering the reflex and reflex. I'd probably just build another.
Liking might get you 5#. Will 42# be enough of a bump from 37# to risk it breaking?
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I agree it would be better to start another and finish this one up for a youth.
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Do not pike that bow!
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Good save on the bamboo. Like the others said, I'd leave it as is and build another. I can't remember if you're new to trad or not, but having a light bow to shoot is a good way to engrain good shooting habits.
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Yep. I'm leaving it as is. I'll get some more material on the way and go at it again. How does my first ever tiller job look?
Now that I have broke mine, fixed it, and brought it back, I'm ready to finish up my daughter's armed with what I've learned. She will have a nice new bow for Christmas. I'll keep you posted!
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For a fist filleting job that's great. If I showed you my first filleting job your cry it was so bad.
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Tiller is pretty nice. On the tip that the boo split on you, cutting the string groove across the back of the boo was asking for disaster. That's why it split. You have seen how I put horn tips overlays on my boo backed bows, that's why I do that.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/36.png)
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I agree about not piking. I have never piked a bow you could risk breakage or other goblins. :scared: