Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: deadsilence on September 01, 2015, 05:08:00 PM
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Hello All,
I am a new member and this is my first post so go easy on me. My grandfather is wonderful with wood, having built 3 guitars, 2 dobros, countless pieces of furniture, etc. Since I am an avid hunter, I thought it would be an awesome project for him and I to undertake and would be a great heirloom for future generations to build a long bow. I already have several recurves that my other grandfather has given me.
My big question is where to start? we have some good cedar stave's and we can probable get what ever else we need. He really wants to laminate the handle to make it pretty, so what wood combinations are good and what are the pros and cons of laminating. Can anyone recommend good books or dvds to get us started. I have watched many youtube videos but everyone seems to just jump into rasping and tillering. No initial picking of the wood besides "this is osage". Any help would be greatly appreciated. A similar post on AT was curtly ignored in the traditional section :(
Thanks for the look, looking forward to some good information from the folks who know it the best.
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Welcome. I promise you won't be ignored here. This is the most helpful and civil bow building board on the net.
That said, my bows are mostly wood/glass lam. Your post seems like you want to build a ALL wood laminate bow. I think others here are better qualified to help you.
I'm looking forward to seeing some pics of a great bow.
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Ok let's start off with recommended reading. I think we would all suggest the traditional Bowyers Bible serious. There are volumes 1-4, but volume 1 or vols. 1-2 will give you a good start and will address selecting bow wood, drying, tillering the bow, bows from board lumber, and other topics.
For a first bow I would recommend you make a board (lumber) bow, or a backed lumber bow.
If you want to make a backed bow I would recommend a backing of hickory, and a core (belly) wood of osage if possible. If osage lumber is not available or within your budget, I would recommend Ipe if you can get it. If not, then I would make a hickory backed hickory bow.
You could also start most simply with a hickory board bow. Hickory with good straight grain can make a very solid bow.
There are a number of good board bow build alongs on the net you can find. I'm on iPad so posting links is a pain, but perhaps others wil have those resources handy. Also you can search and find them easily.
Board bows can be made from red oak, white oak, hard maple, ash, or hickory as well as some other woods, but those are probably the most common.
I recom,end hickory because it has the greatest tension strength and I think is a better wood to start with personally.
You could make a bow from a stave (a section of a split log of 6' length) but unless it's perfectly straight without and twist or wiggles, it can be challenging to tiller the bow well enough on your first try.
Hope that helps. Give us some idea what you know and what other information you're looking for .... Hopefully some veterans will chime in with good advice.
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I recommend "Hunting the Osage Bow" book and "Hunting the Bamboo Backed Bow" video by Dean Torges. bowyersedge.com
The book goes from start to finish on making a selfbow and the video covers backed bows. I would bet your grandpa would get a kick out of Dean's style.
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A classic for the days when we didn't have all the fancy technology is The Flatbow by Ben Hunt & John Metz, (c) 1936. It's available free at the Archery Library:
http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/flatbow/
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Ben is dead on with his advice.
You must pick a virtually perfect straight grained board to start with. Straight edge straight!
I recommend what is known as a pyramid bow as they are the easiest tiller-wise to read correctly.
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X 2 on the Bowyer's Bible series and particularly Vol. 1. Also "Hunting the Osage Bow." Even if you're using a different wood than Osage, it's a great read with a lot of good information. I've heard a lot of guys recommend the "Rattlestick" DVD by Gary Davis, but I haven't seen it yet.
Cedar is not good bow wood. Eastern Red Cedar (actually a Juniper) can be, but it's tricky stuff to work with. Lots of knots and it usually needs to be backed. Not a good choice for a first bow. Osage, hickory, or hard maple would be much better bets.
If you decide to start with a board bow, there is some good info on this site:
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/archer.html
Here's a popular one from TG for a pyramid bow:
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=002064
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Ken, thanks for that link. Was my first visit there. It is a treasure trove
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Thanks for the links and the advice. I think the board bow build from takefive will be an excellent starting place. The build was really well laid out and I like the plans a lot. I would like to have a shelf built into the bow and for the base of the limbs to be a little slimmer in profile. Would it be feasable to make those modifications to those plans? Thinking out loud here, I'm guessing you would have to leave more thickness on the limbs to if you were going to slim the width? What changes would you have to make in order put a shelf on that bow?
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Can't go wrong with "Hunting the Osage Bow". I haven't even attempted a selfbow in years, but I go back and reread this book and watch his DVD from time to time anyhow. Dean is a great author and a great story teller. I wish him well in his recovery.
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Was it the bend through the handle red oak board bow from George's site? I'm sure you could modify it to a rigid handle and narrow the outer limbs. The rigid handle will make tillering a little harder; you'll want more of an elliptical tiller, but if that's the bow you want to make, go for it. The type of wood you use and the draw weight that you want it to be will determine how wide your bow should be at the fades.
I don't cut a shelf in, so don't have any advice on that. Maybe someone else will chime in.
Once you decide on the wood and draw weight somebody will have some suggestions.
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Originally posted by deadsilence:
Thanks for the links and the advice. I think the board bow build from takefive will be an excellent starting place. The build was really well laid out and I like the plans a lot. I would like to have a shelf built into the bow and for the base of the limbs to be a little slimmer in profile. Would it be feasable to make those modifications to those plans? Thinking out loud here, I'm guessing you would have to leave more thickness on the limbs to if you were going to slim the width? What changes would you have to make in order put a shelf on that bow?
Youve got plenty of time to worry about the shelf. The easiest thing to do is glue on a couple layers of leather where you want the shelf, soak them in superglue, and shape them i to a small arrow shelf. Or you can cut a shelf into the handle but that always introduces a weak point and I wouldn't recommend it for a first bow generally. If you do want to make a cut in shelf, make the handle area a little thicker. The build along shows gluing on one extra board thickness (1.5" total)for the handle, i would say you would probably need to add two thicknesses so you be starting with 2.25" total thickness in the handle. This shouldn't be your primary concern right now. Focus on making a good durable bow that survives. That's number 1.
Regarding the width of the limbs at the "base". The base of the limbs we would refer to as the 'fades' in other words the area where the handle blends I to the limbs. In general, you cant just make a limb thicker to get more draw weight. If you make the limb too thick, it will either break, or just take a horrendous amount of set. Generally for a given bow length, and draw length, (in other words for a given amount of bending radius in the limb) there is an ideal thickness which is basically the maximum thickness before things start to go south. So to answer your question, yes you can make the limbs more narrow, but no you shouldn't make them thicker to compensate. You would just need to make the bow proportionally lower in draw weight.
If you want to make narrower limbs, you need to use a better wood. For example, hickory board would allow you to make a more narrow bow than red oak, both bows being otherwise the same (including limb thickness!).
Lastly remember, there is no formula for limb thickness, it's unlikely you can just cut the thickness down to a line and have a good tiller. You're going to need to carefully scrape on he belly side of each limb to get them bending nicely.
If you post pictures frequently throughout your build and ask questions, you'll get all the help you need here.
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This is the post I was referring to.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=002064
I am not a very experienced stick bow shooter so I would prefer to have a lower pound draw weight on the first one in order to practice on form. Maybe a 40-45lb, the recurves that I have now are a 50lb and a 60lb and while I can shoot the 50lb well enough I think a 40-45lb would really help with form and practice. With that being said I have a decently long draw (monkey arms). I normally shoot 29-29.5 on my wheel bows. I just measured and holding a tape measure like I hold a bow and drawing to the corner of my mouth with my index finger (this is where my tab touches when i shoot, 1 over, 2 under) is 28.25. So using a good red oak slat like in the link pasted above, is there a good starting point for 40-45lbs around that mark?
Sorry for the ignorance, please feel free to correct anything I have misstated or is incorrect. Thanks for all the help
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Honestly with red oak I would keep the length the same as in the link, and maybe build it 2.5" wide, maybe 2.25".
Building it slightly wider than needed give you some safety margin and will have a negligible result on performance.
If you go too narrow your bow is much less likely to survive.
If you enjoy making them you will likely make many more and you will learn a lot from a successful build.
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That 4est trekker pyramid bow build along is great! I followed it for my first bow. I'd take Ben's advice and make it 2 1/4" wide at the fades. Then follow the build along. Your board is 3/4" thick and glueing on another 3/4" for the handle gives you 1 1/2" which is a good thickness.
I made a hickory backed maple pyramid awhile back. It was 1 7/8" wide at the fades. I make an offset handle that's 1" wide at the arrow pass, so the arrow sits very close to center. It was 5/8" thick at the end of the handle fades, then pretty quickly to 1/2" and a bit thinner out at the tips after tillering.
I posted it on PA where I lurk as GB. :)
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,53271.msg721954.html#msg721954
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takefive, that is a really good looking bow! That seems like what i had in mind when i envisioned building a longbow. Do you happen to have some plans or measurements for that style of handle? Would red oak, like in the pyramid bow build, work for this style or would we have to back it with some other wood?
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Sounds like your grandfather is skilled and knows his way with wood,and has the right tools,you don't have to limit yourself to a board bow,they do take time and expertise to craft correctly and I've made one and it turned out pretty good but that was after I made a glass laminated mild R/D longbow and a highbred longbow.Yes it took a little longer because i had to make a form,but it was well worth the time because I have two forms to make many more and it is easier and much more efficient to make more bows after the initial form is made.Just something to think about.Bowyers bible 1 thru 4 will help and also this website has alot of info. Have a good journey.
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The crafting of a sound Bow no matter what type is a journey,its so satisfying to me that I cannot imagine not continuing to create the working piece of art.
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Thanks deadsilence!
Red oak will work fine as long as it's a good straight grained board. You'll probably search through a lot of boards at your lumberyard before you find one good enough for a bow. If they have hickory, I'd look through those. You still want straight grain, but a little run off or run up on hickory isn't a problem. It's stronger wood than red oak.
I laid out my handle on a board. Hope you can see the measurements okay. I make mine 9 to 10" long just because I like the fades to be a bit longer with a more gradual slope. A lot of guys make them 8". It's just personal preference IMO.
If you make your bow 2 1/4 or 2 1/2" wide, I wouldn't go any narrower than half that thickness at the arrow pass. I haven't had any of my bows twist from the way I make the handle, but you never know.
I've only made one red oak board bow and it was fine unbacked. I've seen them backed with rawhide, linen, silk, brown paper, etc., I guess mainly to keep a splinter from lifting.
The reason I back mine with hickory is to glue in some reflex. I suffer from the delusion that it will make a faster bow. :rolleyes:
Let me know if you have any question about the handle, etc.
Glad to help if I can, as are the other guys on here.
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/Wooden%20bows/offsethandle1_zpskednsrz5.png)
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/Wooden%20bows/offsethandle_zpsat0biiqi.png)
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Forgot to add that this handle from the roughed in bow is 9 1/2" long, 1 1/2" thick and 1" wide at the arrow pass. It's is a bit narrower at the bottom of the handle than I usually make them. Probably don't have two of them that turned out exactly the same. :)
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Thanks, takefive. I'm going to look for lumber tomorrow. My grandpa said he had some nice black walnut we would use to the limb tips and handle laminations would this be suitable wood, all?
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Black walnut will look great on the handle. I like denser wood like osage, hickory, and bubinga for tip overlays, so I honestly don't know how it would hold up on the tips. I've heard that it's best to orient the grain so it's quarter sawn when you glue the tip wood to the bow. It will be pretty if it works.
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Ok, I'll keep that in mind while when we are doing it. I picked up some red oak at home depot this weekend. Had to go through the whole stack but i think I found two that will work. Do normal lumber places sell hickory or will that have to be found at special stores or ordered?
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I've seen hickory boards at Menards and Mills Fleet Farm, but they might just be regional chains. I found a lumberyard about 60 miles from me that has a good selection of hardwoods. I drive down there a few times a year.
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My last bit of advice is that it's definately worth finding a lumberyard/lumber supplier that carries a variety of hardwoods. You'll want to build something other than red oak eventually, and the big box stores do not carry anything other than oak that will make a bow.
If you want anything other than red oak you need a decent lumberyard.
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Maple or hickory will also make great board bows and should be easy to find.
Show us some pictures of the boards you found, the straightness of the grain is of paramount importance and a few pics will help us to determine if you are starting off with suitable wood.
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I'm no expert - only on my 6th bow.
Out of the previous 5, only three have seen any arrows - but they've seen quite a lot.
One thing I would say is there's no finer feeling than going out and shooting with a bow, string and arrows that you've made yourself.
At that point, you are pretty much hooked.
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Yeah, it's funny how quickly you get over the ones that didn't work out when you make one that turned out the way you wanted it to.
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Sorry it's been so long. Been caught up in bow hunting and keeping the miss's happy when I'm not. We finally found some time to start the bow since it was raining all day. We got the rough shape cut out of our board and have the handle and tip overlays clamped and gluing. We did use the walnut in the handle as a middle strip between two red oak pieces. We haven't settled on a grip design yet but will probably do that tomorrow. Like a dummy I didn't take an pictures but I will tomorrow.
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Sounds like it is coming right along.
Lots of great advice hear.
Some folks have the patience and transferable skills to turn out a fine bow in their first attempt. For others, it takes several bows before the concepts start to solidify in their minds.
My advice to beginning bowyers is to make a couple of kids bows first, or alongside your first big kid bow attempt. It is an inexpensive way to get a feel for the tillering process. Inexpensive because finding staves or lumber that is straight and clean for the length of a kids bow is much easier than an adult length. Some of the pressure to not screw it up is removed and you focus on getting experience. During the final tillering of a kids bow, you will learn just how small an amount of wood removal is needed to affect tiller. You learn the subtleties of tiller shape and how that affects the feel of the draw and performance of the bow. And there is always a kid that is more than happy to receive a bow :)
Earlier you asked about slimming up the width of the inner limbs/fades. If you desire that look rather than a wider pyramid limb, you will need to lengthen the limbs to keep the amount of material doing the work consistent.
Welcome to the craft!
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Carson, good lookin bows on your site man!
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Thanks Kenny. wood bows are naturally good looking, I just try not to get in the way too much.
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So we did a good bit of work on the bow this sunday and yesterday. I have pictures to upload but my normal tech savvy self cannot seem to see any place that i can upload pictures. Can someone point me in the right place?
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(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_000_zpsyavc5vyy.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_000_zpsyavc5vyy.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_009_zps6fpltsru.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_009_zps6fpltsru.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_003_zpssj506ky8.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_003_zpssj506ky8.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_002_zpsbjljqhec.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_002_zpsbjljqhec.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_001_zpsbq4lskgh.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_001_zpsbq4lskgh.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_000_zpsyavc5vyy.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_000_zpsyavc5vyy.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_004_zpstcpydjid.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_004_zpstcpydjid.jpeg.html)
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So after a little searching I might have figured it out. This could possibly be too big so look fast before they get deleted.
I have several questions of course:
1. I can tell that the top limb (right) is much stiff and this is only at around have brace. So i need to remove material from the entire length of the limb correct? How does the bottom limb look? it seems like it is too stiff from the tip to around the bottom 1/4 of the limb. Am I correct.
2. Some how i didn't get my string notches lined up on evenly on one tip. Can i just make them even and everything be ok? Or is this a big booboo that is going to scrap the build?
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Well I spent some time last night tillering the top limb. I guess I misunderstood, I thought that the tillering process didn't require much removal to induce a change. That does not seem to be the case with the top limb. I removed what I considered to be a good bit of material and the tiller did not change very much if any.
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You usually have to exercise the limbs 10 or 20 times to show if the tiller has changed. Go slow with removing wood. It takes some patience, but it's the best way to avoid hinges or a bow much lighter than what you wanted.
You should be okay with your nocks as long as they hold the string. Do you have a Gizmo for tillering? It really helps.
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So after some more sanding on the upper limb last night this is where i am at. it is bending more but it is still about 1.5 inches shy of the bottom (measuring from tip to floor). I am exercising it 30-50 times after material removal. I do not have a tillering gizmo but i did run about a 3 inch block along the back of the upper limb to see what it looked like but i believe this is too short to be of any use.
Here is the new photo. The black line on the cardboard is not level, so do not use it for a reference, the back of the handle is level.
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/IMG_0450_zpstbkpqalg.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/IMG_0450_zpstbkpqalg.jpg.html)
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Also, what should i use for a testing string? Right now this is just regular ol'string that stretches something fierce. it gets the job done but not good for bracing up the bow or anything.
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If you're gonna be building bows the best investment you can make is a spool of bowstring material.
I like BCY 8125, but I'd recommend any fast flight type string (anything made from spectra or dyneema). Dacron (B-50 or the newer B-55) will also work, but it stretches and makes it a pain to get recurve bows to first bracing during tillering.
As far as your bow goes, You need to get the middle third of the left limb bending more because it is currently bending too much near the handle.
The right limb is still very stiff. Keep removing material from the right limb until they are the same stiffness.
Make sure you escercise the limbs after making any tillering changes.
Do not draw the bow any farther than you already have until you do those things.
Leave the outer third of both limbs alone for now and report back after you do the above.
As another note, there are several reasons not to shape the handle until the limbs are tillered, at least while you're starting out. 1) the bow might not make it. 2) you can choose top and bottom later, this way you can choose the slightly weaker limb for top and less overall tillering may be required. 3. A flat block of wood tends to sit better in a tillering tree, unless you use a leather sling or something.
Lastly, a pistol grip handle with a sight window creates two weak spots you need to be careful of. 1) the sight window, especially where it is thinnest, and typically at the junction with the arrow shelf. 2) the waist of the grip.
In this case you really need to be careful of the remaining saw cut that's down in the crease of the sight window and shelf.
With a cut in it like that, that area will most likely be your weakest and most likely to crack.
I prefer leaving the corner between the sight window and the shelf rounded (filleted). I use a 1/4" round file to shape that area by working it into that corner, then carefully blend in the arrow shelf and the sight window using a flat file .... Carefully! Or you will get another sharp crease and start all over.
Hope that all makes sense.
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i wish i hadn't shaped the handle but its hard to change an 80 year olds mind when they get set on something. so we did it.
So keep removing material from the entire right limb, no specific section?
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Ben has some great advice. I will second his suggestion for you to get some low stretch bow-string material. If you continue tillering the bow with a string that stretches badly, you will end up with a whip tiller when you do go to brace the bow with real bow string. This is due to the effect of string angle on the limb. A stretchy string is giving you a full draw type string angle when the limbs are just barely bent to brace height.
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If you're going to use a block of wood to check the bend of the limbs, make it 6" long.
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Maybe a bit late to add, but poorfolkbows.com has some great in depth build alongs for board bows, lots of good info there.
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So i have done some more scrapping and I can clearly see that i need to work on the middle third of the left limb more but is the right limb starting to take the proper shape? Am I correct in saying that I will have to keep removing from the right limb and the middle third of the left limb until both look the same at this draw distance?
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_000%202_zps9u6umsir.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_000%202_zps9u6umsir.jpeg.html)
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Middle third of left limb needs scraping and most of the right limb needs scraping. Just leave the third near the handle alone for now on both limbs. Both limbs are bending way too much near the handle.
It doesn't look like much has changed since the last photo except the bow is drawn farther.
Get those limbs bending evenly, and get the right limb bending more. It is currently way too stiff.
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
Middle third of left limb needs scraping and most of the right limb needs scraping. Just leave the third near the handle alone for now on both limbs. Both limbs are bending way too much near the handle.
It doesn't look like much has changed since the last photo except the bow is drawn farther.
Get those limbs bending evenly, and get the right limb bending more. It is currently way too stiff.
I see people talking about count scraps, etc. If I did that i would be in the thousands by now. I feel like i have removed a ton of material with little to no change in the bending profile of the limbs. There is to a change, I got a new tillering string :)
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Be careful, keep taking it slow. The limb will start to bend as you want eventually.
As you get more experience it will move along a lot more quickly. Learn to tiller slowly with the scraper and in the future you'll have the experience to do the bulk of the work with a rasp. Things go much quicker that way.
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I think you are at a kind of dangerous spot.
I got a bit carried away with my first bow.
Seemed like nothing was changing, so I guess I got a bit aggressive.
I ended up under weight.
If I'd been more patient, I would probably have been closer to my target weight.
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Originally posted by passion for knowledge:
I think you are at a kind of dangerous spot.
I got a bit carried away with my first bow.
Seemed like nothing was changing, so I guess I got a bit aggressive.
I ended up under weight.
If I'd been more patient, I would probably have been closer to my target weight.
I won't be shocked if this ends up underweight. I think the inner limbs are hinging and there's really nothing else to do but keep scraping the rest of the limb to get them bending evenly.
Take it slow, get the limbs bending evenly and you'll end up with a shootsble bow, whatever the weight.
Focus on proper tillering for your first bow. Hitting your target weight spot on will come later. Walk before you run.
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I wouldn't touch the left limb until you get both limbs bending with equal measure. And I wouldn't draw as far as you have - so don't go any further.
Once the limbs have equal loading, then start getting the tips & outer thirds bending as they should. Depending on how good your eye is, comparing the angle of the tips is a good way to assess if each limb is bending roughly equal.
I used a scraper on some early bows but found them to be frustratingly slow, particularly on flat bellied bows, so I switched to a file & rasp. The file was okay but the rasp was a mistake. 40-60 grit paper is permissible if you're struggling with the scraper.
Good luck! You've got a lot of work ahead of you to tiller your bow but it's a good first effort.
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Ok this will be a long one. So here is the whole story. While roughing out the first bow, my grandfather got a little carried away with the nose of his belt sander at the limb fades/riser block. i had to remove a lot of material in order to get these waves out. He also took the sharp corners down with his table sander which lead to some inconsistencies that i had to round out with 60 grit. I went ahead and finished tillering the bow to the best of my abilities this weekend and learned some valuable lessons. The bow ended up bending evenly on both ends. I measured from the bottom of my tree to the limb tips, drawing from where a shooter would draw and the difference was only 1/8. I though that was pretty good. As some of you posted the bow did come in greatly under weight at 28 pounds at 28 inches. Like i said I learned a whole lot and this is the reason i bought two boards! So bow number two is under way and is already off to a much better start. This is with a tight string at 10 inches. What do yall think? What needs wook?
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_000_zpsdt9ynnzk.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_000_zpsdt9ynnzk.jpeg.html)
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keep power tools away from your first few bows- otherwise thats what will happen- :D things just happen too quick- and wood gets hogged off!
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I did not read all of this thread so if this has already been said, I apologize in advance.
I would suggest reworking the handle before I moved on. the transition from handle to working limb is too abrupt. you will have a difficult time not getting a hinge at the end of that handle. Look at some of the build alongs already suggested and look at their transitions.
I would also suggest a tillering gizmo - Eric has a "how to make a tillering gizmo thread. Here is the link.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000075#000000
And lastly - x2 what fujimo said on the power tools.
Good luck...it is a learning process for sure!
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Looks pretty good so far.
Measure the draw weight at 10". Don't pull the bow farther than you're intended finished draw weight.
Get it pulling to say 14" without going over your draw weight (remove material evenly from both limbs if need to get there and watching for any areas bending too much)
Then you can brace the bow low .... Like 3-4" brace height.
Report back before bracing.
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
Looks pretty good so far.
Measure the draw weight at 10". Don't pull the bow farther than you're intended finished draw weight.
Get it pulling to say 14" without going over your draw weight (remove material evenly from both limbs if need to get there and watching for any areas bending too much)
Then you can brace the bow low .... Like 3-4" brace height.
Report back before bracing.
Here is tight string 39lbs at 14 inches. If I measure from the end of the level to the limb there is a 1/32 difference and 1/4 at the limb tips measuring to the base of the tree. I'm shooting for 45-50lbs
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/597C3E10-8087-4AEA-BA96-F23D19631191_zpsleg3s5n7.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/597C3E10-8087-4AEA-BA96-F23D19631191_zpsleg3s5n7.jpg.html)
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Mwosborn is right. Smooth out the transition from handle to limbs.
Your limbs are bending too much near the handle again. Mainly the left limb, but the right limb slightly also.
You need to scrape some the outer 2/3 of both limbs.
I would take mwosborn's advice and read up on and build a tillering gizmo. It will help you see where the limb is bending too much, and where it is not bending enough.
Is this a pyramid taper? In other words what does the front of the bow look like?
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yes this is a pyramid taper, 2.5in at the handle to 0.5 in at the tips. Limb thickness was sawed with a table saw set to just a hair over 0.5in. Everything looks pretty uniform to me so far, so just even scrapping over the outer 2/3 of the limb?
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Just to be clear, scrape from these lines to the tips correct? I will also smooth out the handle transition.
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/scrapping_zpsaowhxczz.png) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/scrapping_zpsaowhxczz.png.html)
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Got a coping saw and cut out the riser corners. They aren't perfect but I'll clean them up tomorrow with my dad's drum sander. I'll be very careful. Did some scrapping and the left limb is responding much faster than the right. I think I will lay off the left and scrap the whole right limb. They are still very close to even when I measure though.
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/BC67EC2D-1F62-43D7-9A0F-26F71CD0B679_zpshdohmtsl.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/BC67EC2D-1F62-43D7-9A0F-26F71CD0B679_zpshdohmtsl.jpg.html)
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i would be very careful with the tillering stick- as you get further down the draw length, drawing the bow, getting it all level, stepping back to take a pic- is way to long for a wooden bow to sit under strain. if you are lucky- all this will do is introduce a lot of set, if not, it will be the death of your bow- think when you are at full draw- it no longer than a second.
build a tillering tree with a pulley- lots on here- but check out "Roy from Pa".
get camera ready- get to full draw- snap pic, and let down.
a glass bow can handle this type of extended strain , a wooden bow sure doesnt like it.
cheers
wayne
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I agree with Wayne. Try to reduce how long you're at full draw. But I also treat my bows badly and hold them drawn like a target archer so I can relate.
The limbs look to be bending much better.
In your PM you said the tilleri gizmo shows only stiff 8" at the tips. If you twist the pencil so it's sticking out a hair more at a time it will keep showing the stiff areas. In other words get the pencil sticking out a bit more and see if any other parts of the limb are stiff at all.
It looks from the pics that the fades (area near the riser) on both limbs is still a small bit stiff. I would give a bit more work to the outer 2/3 or both limbs. Then take it to a higher brace height, like 4" and post a pic so we can see what it looks like.
I know it seems grueling, but trust me, the first one is always the toughest. It comes much faster as your experience goes up.
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Sorry guys been hunting the past few days and don't have internet access there. I continued with your last advice and kept pushing on. I hope I have done correctly. I think the bend looks pretty good but that could be me being naive. The issue I have now is that I am stuck at 26 inches I'm drawing 52lbs and I need to get down to 28.5 or 29 for my draw length. Is there any particular place to concentrate on when trying to make weight or just overall scraping. Sorry for the bad background but I took the picture quickly and didn't have a better spot.
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/5BBC82AA-CE19-4AB7-9EBB-C53745BE060E_zpscimha9eu.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/5BBC82AA-CE19-4AB7-9EBB-C53745BE060E_zpscimha9eu.jpg.html)
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I think you've reacheed max draw with that bow. Look at the string angle - close to 90. It's gonna be stacking hard with anymore drawlength. After going back and checking all your drawn pictures it looks to me like you pulled too far early on when the lower limb was weak near the handle. This damaged the belly cells here and the area hasn't been able to 'catch up' because of this. As you can see in your last pic the left inner limb is bending too much and looks on the edge of being a bit hingey to me.
A good tempering may help but it won't make as much difference as it could've now.
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I guess there is nothing that can be done to lighten the poundage, more scraping or maybe scraping at the limb fades? I have a pretty uniform thickness of just under 1/2 all the way down the limbs
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Scrape the inner two thirds of both limbs. Leave the outer portion stiffer. You can always reflex the tips to get the string angle down and reduce stack some.
The right limb is slightly stiffer than the left.
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Originally posted by John Scifres:
Scrape the inner two thirds of both limbs. Leave the outer portion stiffer. You can always reflex the tips to get the string angle down and reduce stack some.
The right limb is slightly stiffer than the left.
What method would you use to reflex the limb tips?
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How long is the bow?
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
How long is the bow?
68 tip to tip and 66 nock to nock
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Are you drawing 26" from the back of the bow, or from the belly side of the grip?
Draw length is usually measured from the back of the bow. So if you're measuring 26" from the belly of the grip, you're actually at more like 28"
If you need to squeeze out a bit more draw, you can work the inner 2/3 of both limbs slightly as Macbow said and also weaken the right limb a bit. It is slightly stringer than the left.
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
Are you drawing 26" from the back of the bow, or from the belly side of the grip?
Draw length is usually measured from the back of the bow. So if you're measuring 26" from the belly of the grip, you're actually at more like 28"
If you need to squeeze out a bit more draw, you can work the inner 2/3 of both limbs slightly as Macbow said and also weaken the right limb a bit. It is slightly stringer than the left.
I discovered this yesterday, my tree is measing from the belly of the bow, I am getting my arrows to proper draw and the bow is holding about 52 lbs at my full draw. I have a 1/16 of negative tiller so i will work the inner 2/3 of the top limb(right limb in picture above). Would it be worth backing this bow with rawhide, just for safety not poundage? I've heard you could use the large 36in dog bone rawhides, is this true? Is it dyable? Got to make a pretty bow right!?
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I have question that might hijack my own thread but the bow is about done so i will go ahead and ask. Is there any reason why you cannot take a hickory board, split it in have along the thickness and plane them down to 1/4. then run fades out from a riser block and laminate one to back of handle and the other to the limb belly and handle fades. Or could you laminate the two 1/4 strips together and laminate many 1/8 pieces for the riser on the belly, with each piece getting some dimension shorter than the previous. Sorry if these are dumb question but I am new and all of these build alongs and posts I seen have the cogs turning. Both scenarios above would be straight limbed bows.
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Well here she is, still have to put some poly on tonight but, she is done in my book. I did a darker walnut stain on the front and a lighter stain on the back and let it blend on the sides. I shot her some before the stain and while she isn't a speed demon, my judo was consistently hitting a tennis ball from 15 to 25. I'm sure the tiller isn't perfect and the 68ttt beauty took about 1.75 inches of set. I don't know if that is good or bad. I got my tiller to zero so I am certain the full draw picture looks like the tiller isn't quite right. I did rotate it some bc I had the bow unlevel when the picture was taken. Thanks everyone one for all your help. I am sure I will be back with more questions as I already have plans to make some more.
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_004%202_zpsncqh1qyi.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_004%202_zpsncqh1qyi.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_003%202_zpsmjvi5nx3.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_003%202_zpsmjvi5nx3.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_002%202_zpsd0adf5os.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_002%202_zpsd0adf5os.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_001%202_zpsf81csyku.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_001%202_zpsf81csyku.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_000%203_zps6euux9tj.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_000%203_zps6euux9tj.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_005%202_zps39qxwbrl.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_005%202_zps39qxwbrl.jpeg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_006%202_zpszraff8jo.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_006%202_zpszraff8jo.jpeg.html) (http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/th_File_007%202_zpslir48fo7.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_007%202_zpslir48fo7.jpeg.html)
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Sorry about the thumb, copied the wrong link from photo bucket
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/File_007%202_zpslir48fo7.jpeg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/File_007%202_zpslir48fo7.jpeg.html)
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as to my hijacking questions. this is what i was meaning. The black lines would taper from 1/4 at the tips to 3/8 in the middle. Riser block would be 9 inches and the belly lams, green in the picture would be 1/8 flat. Is this feasible or do i have this backwards and the belly lam should be a backing? Terrible picture to help.
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/Idea_zpsbirmlpkd.png) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/Idea_zpsbirmlpkd.png.html)
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Nice job finishing the bow up.
Check out Sam Harper's site, poorfolkbows. Check out his bamboo backed ipe build, he discusse the various ways to add a riser/ prevent the handle popping off.
http://poorfolkbows.com/ipe1.htm
IMO the easier way is to sandwich a thin (1/4" or so) short 12-16" lamination between the lams in the handle area, then just glue on a riser the same as with a board bow on the belly side.
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I should have clarified that the back lamination would taper from 3/8 from the fades to 1/4 at the tip.
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
Nice job finishing the bow up.
Check out Sam Harper's site, poorfolkbows. Check out his bamboo backed ipe build, he discusse the various ways to add a riser/ prevent the handle popping off.
http://poorfolkbows.com/ipe1.htm
IMO the easier way is to sandwich a thin (1/4" or so) short 12-16" lamination between the lams in the handle area, then just glue on a riser the same as with a board bow on the belly side.
Would this short lam have to be tapered? I'm guessing it would.
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I would boil hickory for the reflexed tips. Might be too late for this one I see. Bow looks great. Good job.
I'm not really following your lamination question but it looks like you have it backwards. Genrally you glue a thin, tension strong, material on the back to increase performance and protect the back from lifting a splinter. Adding thin material to the belly is counter intuitive since we want to prevent compression and the thin material would seem to compress more easily.
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
Nice job finishing the bow up.
Check out Sam Harper's site, poorfolkbows. Check out his bamboo backed ipe build, he discusse the various ways to add a riser/ prevent the handle popping off.
http://poorfolkbows.com/ipe1.htm
IMO the easier way is to sandwich a thin (1/4" or so) short 12-16" lamination between the lams in the handle area, then just glue on a riser the same as with a board bow on the belly side.
Ok so we have easy access to hickory and white oak. If make a tri lam like same does in the link little ben provided, what are acceptable woods for the belly? would a hickory backed white oak work?
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Nice job! May I ask how many poundage and draw length?
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Originally posted by Jomohr84:
Nice job! May I ask how many poundage and draw length?
Before the final sanding it was 52-53 at 28 but I haven't drawn it back since then. Letting my first coat of poly dry before I sand it. The humidity and temperature is not helping my case though.
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I have another question about design and function. For this board bow I just used the reminder of the the board to laminate for the handle. My question is how far down can you take the handle fades. If you will notice in my pictures I achieve 2 board thickness pretty fast in the taper but I would like to make a less blocky, more streamlined handle for my next one. Can i taper it all the way down to the arrow shelf? Also how far down the handle can you start the sight window? Can you start it at the fade? 1/4, 1/2 inch from it? Is there a safe general rule of thumb for how thick the the handle needs to be before you can start taking material away for design aspects?
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I taper the fades just about to the arrow pass and start angling the sight window from the end of the fades. I don't cut a shelf in on wooden bows, though, so I really don't know if you need to leave more wood around that cut in shelf. The narrowest I make the handle at the arrow pass is 7/8" wide by 1 3/8" thick.
Congrats on finishing your bow. Tiller looks pretty good. :thumbsup:
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Well once my hunting partner saw my bow, he immediately said, "Well you know you have to build another one now, right?" I had figured as much so I told him what to look for in a board and he brought his selection to me. This one went much faster than the last. The bow started out with about .5 inches of natural reflex and once tillered out it was around 1.25in of deflex. This build has raised some questions for me. How do you minimize this in the tillering process? Am I over stressing the bow? I built a pully tillering tree and never pulled the bow beyond the target weight nor over the desired draw length. Did I over excercise?
That is my first question. My next requires some setup. The bow had a slight hinge in the upper limb midway which required some material removal to even out and more material removal on the opposite limb to balance. The bow is pulling around 47lbs and I was shooting for closer to 53-55. What is the best way to raise the weight by 5 or 6 lbs. The bow is 66ntn with a 9.5in riser, 2.25 at the fades 1/2 at the tips. I may not do anything to it but I would like some information on how and what to do it if i decide to.
Here is the bow full draw. Picture is rotated to compensate for me not being able to hold the bow level apparently.
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah39/morrisjt/C9BA6B6E-E090-4D9A-9CE0-F6AF64C8FEC4_zpsxbnq4qnk.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/morrisjt/media/C9BA6B6E-E090-4D9A-9CE0-F6AF64C8FEC4_zpsxbnq4qnk.jpg.html)
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1.25" string follow is excellent for an oak board bow. Looks and sounds like you're doing well.
Making the bow wider, longer, and/or lower draw weight (from the beginning) can reduce set. But some set is good .... It tells you the bow is not too overbuilt. I think overall you can't expect much more from a 1x3 oak board then you've already got.
Sometimes you can shorten (pike) a finished bow by a couple inches and increase the weight, but it will also cause more set. With this bow, I would not shorten it. The string is already at about 90degrees to the tips so there's really no more draw length left, and if you shorten it, the angle will get worse.
Build another if the few pounds is critical.
Maybe hickory board for the next one if you do another board bow?
Since you've got things down pretty good, maybe you wanna set your sight on a backed bow for the next one? Hickory backed hickory would be cheap especially if you have a sawmill/lumber yard where you can get straight grained hickory. Same rules apply as when choosing an oak board.
Or you could go bamboo backed Hickory, which would wrk although isn't ideal really. Bamboo backed Ipe or bamboo backed osage would be best.
Cheers and nicely done!
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
1.25" string follow is excellent for an oak board bow. Looks and sounds like you're doing well.
Making the bow wider, longer, and/or lower draw weight (from the beginning) can reduce set. But some set is good .... It tells you the bow is not too overbuilt. I think overall you can't expect much more from a 1x3 oak board then you've already got.
Sometimes you can shorten (pike) a finished bow by a couple inches and increase the weight, but it will also cause more set. With this bow, I would not shorten it. The string is already at about 90degrees to the tips so there's really no more draw length left, and if you shorten it, the angle will get worse.
Build another if the few pounds is critical.
Maybe hickory board for the next one if you do another board bow?
Since you've got things down pretty good, maybe you wanna set your sight on a backed bow for the next one? Hickory backed hickory would be cheap especially if you have a sawmill/lumber yard where you can get straight grained hickory. Same rules apply as when choosing an oak board.
Or you could go bamboo backed Hickory, which would wrk although isn't ideal really. Bamboo backed Ipe or bamboo backed osage would be best.
Cheers and nicely done!
Thanks for the encouragement. I was really surprised out how quickly this one turned out. I thought the tiller looked really well on it. I was thinking about sticking with the oak for the next bow and attempting to flip the tips before i moved on to a different wood types. I had been eyeing this style by dan spier.
http://danspier.com/archives/528
I contacted him and he said that he uses two equal laminations of hickory tapering from 1/4 in the middle to 1/8 on the ends. He laminates them flat side to flat side with mild reflex, then laminates a fitted handle. Seemed like it would be a good style to start with for a laminated bow.
Any advice on tip flippin would be appreciated to.
Thanks
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If you're laminating the bow, you're going to need to cut the laminations from lumber stock. At that point there's very little advantage to oak because the board you buy will still need to be cut up. Just my .02
Once yu move onto stronger wood you won't look back. Also for the $10 your gonna pay to the hardware store for a 1x3x6ft oak board (about 1 bdft) you can get more material from a true lumber supplier. Hickory sells for as little as $2-3/bdft. As do many rough cut woods. Try craigslist for deals.
Anyway, if you're going to laminate the limbs, just introduce the curve to the tips during glue up. If you wanna flip the tips on a board that's not laminated, you need to either steam the wood or heat it with a heat gun (or if you're ultra thrifty and a bit crazy) you can also use the stove. P.S. Make sure you're wife/GF is not home.
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
If you're laminating the bow, you're going to need to cut the laminations from lumber stock. At that point there's very little advantage to oak because the board you buy will still need to be cut up. Just my .02
Once yu move onto stronger wood you won't look back. Also for the $10 your gonna pay to the hardware store for a 1x3x6ft oak board (about 1 bdft) you can get more material from a true lumber supplier. Hickory sells for as little as $2-3/bdft. As do many rough cut woods. Try craigslist for deals.
Anyway, if you're going to laminate the limbs, just introduce the curve to the tips during glue up. If you wanna flip the tips on a board that's not laminated, you need to either steam the wood or heat it with a heat gun (or if you're ultra thrifty and a bit crazy) you can also use the stove. P.S. Make sure you're wife/GF is not home.
Sorry I wasn't clear, i was talking about experimenting with flipping the tips on an oak board board just for the experience of doing it. Then if that was successful I would move on to the hickory laminated bow like i described.
I am predominately a tree stand hunter here in south arkansas so I have also been looking into shorter NtN bows that would be easier to wield in a stand (also that can lay across the back seat of a full size truck and shut the door lol) Is there a style and/or wood type that lend itself to being a little shorter?
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If you get into wood laminated bows, a tri-lam recurve is a good design for a shorter bow, especially if you deflex it at the handle. The two I made were 62" NTN. Or you could make a bend through the handle bow. You can go shorter with that design because you have more working limb w/o the handle.
Osage is the best wood, whether it's a belly lam or a stave for a self bow IMO. It's strong, elastic, and heat bends easily and looks beautiful as well.
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Look at Roy's tri lam build alongs. There are several here on the bench. His ReDe designs will get you to a shorter bow.
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Jason I totally understand the short bow thing. At the same time I can say I find little difference between a short and long bow in a stand. And if you think it's hard to jam a bow into a full size truck you should see the ridiculous 2 door coupe I drive.
My point is just that a longer bow can be a real joy to shoot, and a small burden to transport/maneuver.
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Does anyone have a good template or some measurements for a safe tip flipping jig?
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The term would be caul, for the jig you bend the limb over. I don't have measurements or anything, but it all basically depends on what shape you want.
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You don't need much of a caul to flip the tips. This one is a scrap 2 X 6 a little longer than 2 feet. I think I just guessed at the radius and free handed it. Maybe trace a dinner plate and see how that looks?
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/Wooden%20bows/caul_zpsmmnidyds.png)
This is how the bow looks braced. The tips are about 1 1/2" above the plane of the bow's back. Pretty average flippage I think.
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/osagebowfini3_zps7h238fpw.png)
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Found a new wood provider this weekend. He runs a tree service and has his own sawmill and kiln. He had all type of local Arkansas wood in his shop. All of it was rough sawn so it was hard to tell how the grain was but I ended up coming home with a decent piece of hickory and two mulberry boards. I know mulberry is a cousin to Osage but I haven't found a lot of posts about it. Does anyone have recommendations on dimensions for mulberry? Maybe for a 55lb bow?
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I've only made one mulberry bow and I was really surprised at how light the wood was, esp. after reading the same "cousin to Osage" stuff. It reminded me very much of red elm. Maybe it was just that stave, though. I've seen nice mulberry bows over on Primitive Archer and the guys who made them were happy with the wood.
The stave I had was only 64" long, so I made it 1 3/4" wide at the fades. I made your basic American flat bow and it wound up at 40# , a few pounds lighter than I was trying for.
It's still unfinished. I'll probably heat treat the belly one of these days just to see if that helps.
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Originally posted by takefive:
I've only made one mulberry bow and I was really surprised at how light the wood was, esp. after reading the same "cousin to Osage" stuff. It reminded me very much of red elm. Maybe it was just that stave, though. I've seen nice mulberry bows over on Primitive Archer and the guys who made them were happy with the wood.
The stave I had was only 64" long, so I made it 1 3/4" wide at the fades. I made your basic American flat bow and it wound up at 40# , a few pounds lighter than I was trying for.
It's still unfinished. I'll probably heat treat the belly one of these days just to see if that helps.
Were the limbs a straight taper to the tip or did you hold the fade width to a certain point?
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I kept the fade width for half the length of the limbs.
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For your laminated handle: Try to find some Cherry, Persimmon or walnut. Using any two of this combination will make a nice handle.
Where are you located in Arkansas?
James
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(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7433.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7432.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7980.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7978.jpg)
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I like those wedges ya got for curving the tips. Have seen tons of build-a-longs but that is a first for those.
:thumbsup:
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(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/flip4.png)